Warrior: Blood Craze usefulness

[omglazor]

Blood craze + second wind rock BGs.
For arenas I've found that if you are getting focus fired, a hot for 120HP is not going to help you much, so spell reflect and hope you don't get torn a new one. So, 4/5 commanding presence for arenas and 1/5 CP + 3/3 BC for BGs and solo.

[Felix]

Blood craze + second wind rock BGs.
For arenas I've found that if you are getting focus fired, a hot for 120HP is not going to help you much, so spell reflect and hope you don't get torn a new one. So, 4/5 commanding presence for arenas and 1/5 CP + 3/3 BC for BGs and solo.

I understand your view but is it really worth if CP gives an extra 15% of its potential with 4/5 compared to 1/5? We are talking for an approximate of 165 HP more per team member. Would this make such a difference really compared to a constant 3% regeneration of your total HP?

[Azain]

I understand your view but is it really worth if CP gives an extra 15% of its potential with 4/5 compared to 1/5? We are talking for an approximate of 165 HP more per team member. Would this make such a difference really compared to a constant 3% regeneration of your total HP?

yea the more i look at CP the less i like it, given how little it really does for a tier 3 talent. 79 ap or 280 hp or whatever the exact numbers are seems hardly worth it when you put it next to BC or imp cleave. i haven't been on much lately but once we hit 2k personal rating (tonight or tomorrow imo) i will have some free time to mess around with specs in arena and post more definitively on some of these talent questions.

[Felix]

Cleave is total crap, CP is better but its up to you what will you use. Advantage is that both Enrage and Blood Craze can proc when you are only hited (as a compensation for resilience) and not crited. Also more hp you have, more hp you regen so also thats a bit gear depedant question

No Cleave is not crap.How did you get this impression?

[Decapitation]

No Cleave is not crap.How did you get this impression?

Because talent improves base damage of cleave, not final amount of damage

[Azain]

Because talent improves base damage of cleave, not final amount of damage

it improves the base damage yes, which puts it just below that of MS. if it increased the overall damage the game would end, since warriors would run around cleaving things for 4k in arenas. also WW no longer procs a tick of sweeping strikes, however cleave still does. for that instant in any arena where you can catch two targets next to each other (assuming of course 1 isnt CC'd) you can ms/cleave/WW hope for a SS proc or even maces (do maces work on SS ticks, someone please confirm) and get that extra hit.

also you have to realize that its a warrior ability, not a white hit. so now you take a regular white hit, target two people, increase that damage by 150, and now its affected by impale. so if your white hit is 1k, it becomes 1150, and that 2k white crit becomes a 2760 cleave crit (2300 * 1.2). assuming you have the rage built up, which you would if you popped sweeping strikes, how can you tell me those 3 points are not worth it?

instead of 4/5 CP and 2/2 execute, go 3/3 imp cleave and 3/3 BC, given execute in pvp (specifically arenas) is not on par with execute in pve, and we always assume pvp specs.

edit: numbers, too early to add in my head.

[Felix]

Because talent improves base damage of cleave, not final amount of damage

I know and you know how much this is? its 84 more damage with 3/3 Cleave on top of its 70 with 0/3 cleave. You know how much 84 more dmg is AP equivalent? Its 308 more AP and you dont think its good? And in total, Cleave with Improved Cleave produces 184 more dmg which is an equivalent of 675 more AP. You think it is negligible?

[Felix]

it improves the base damage yes, which puts it just below that of MS. if it increased the overall damage the game would end, since warriors would run around cleaving things for 4k in arenas. also WW no longer procs a tick of sweeping strikes, however cleave still does. for that instant in any arena where you can catch two targets next to each other (assuming of course 1 isnt CC'd) you can ms/cleave/WW hope for a SS proc or even maces (do maces work on SS ticks, someone please confirm) and get that extra hit.

also you have to realize that its a warrior ability, not a white hit. so now you take a regular white hit, target two people, increase that damage by 190, and now its affected by impale. so if your white hit is 1k, it becomes 1190, and that 2k white crit becomes a 2856 cleave crit (2380 * 1.2). assuming you have the rage built up, which you would if you popped sweeping strikes, how can you tell me those 3 points are not worth it?

instead of 4/5 CP and 2/2 execute, go 3/3 imp cleave and 3/3 BC, given execute in pvp (specifically arenas) is not on par with execute in pve, and we always assume pvp specs.

I agree completelly but would you really give up execute?

[Decapitation]

Damage dealt by cleave with and without "improved" isnt so viable and cleave is not so much used that I would spent my talent points into that. Go make few screenshots with and without imp cleave so we can see real difference and not theorycraft.

[Felix]

Damage dealt by cleave with and without "improved" isnt so viable and cleave is not so much used that I would spent my talent points into that. Go make few screenshots with and without imp cleave so we can see real difference and not theorycraft.

Its not theory just read my simple calculations above

[Azain]

I agree completelly but would you really give up execute?

yes, i already have. well i still hold the talents as i have yet to respec, but i use it minimally in arenas for several reason:
A. losing all your rage is bad, as you can no longer keep ms debuff up, or pummel or fear in intercept to stop healers from healing. this is compouned more if you execute an immune target, cycloned, bubbled, ice blocked, or something like cheat death or pain suppression, when you execute and dont kill them. likewise if the next white hit generates no rage, dodged, parried etc, or the execute doesnt land because of those same reasons.

by executing you pretty much put all your eggs in one basket, if something happens that it doesnt kill them you are in trouble. also execute never scaled properly with other abilities and gear at 70. rarely do i think something in the 13-20% range with an execute, even if it crits given resilience. and given a slow 2h'er weapon its not like im executing once a second to get the kill, altho i have tried macro'ing a switch to dw around execute range in arenas to generate enough rage to spam execute, and that was hit/miss, altho in principle it was a nice idea.

similarly, its the same reason rogues no longer ambush or backstab and rarely evis, they want to be in total control of the fight for 100% of your health until you die. there is no burning you energy to 0 wasting 5 points on an evis at 20% hoping that it kills the target. that 5 points is better spent on a ks where you can lock them down until they are dead.

for execute against things like a paladin or shaman or even warrior with a shield on, or hunter with deterrence or rogue with evasion, my money is on the skills i know wont ruin the fight if they dont land. now under 5-7% that changes, as pretty much any warrior ability will get you the kill, and assuming your instants (ms/ww) aren't up, i would resort to an execute in that range and situation. now is the execute talent was 1/2, 2/2 ignores resilience by 50/100% or even 25/50% or perhaps executes ignore target armor by 25/50% or increased crit chance 10/20% any of those things and i think its worth it, that the first 3 would scale it up in pvp, since in pve execute is still fine.

but honestly no i rarely use executes in arena anymore, at least not when the fight still matters. (3v2 or 3v1 i may spam it, but fight is already over at that point)

[Felix]

yes, i already have. well i still hold the talents as i have yet to respec, but i use it minimally in arenas for several reason:
A. losing all your rage is bad, as you can no longer keep ms debuff up, or pummel or fear in intercept to stop healers from healing. this is compouned more if you execute an immune target, cycloned, bubbled, ice blocked, or something like cheat death or pain suppression, when you execute and dont kill them. likewise if the next white hit generates no rage, dodged, parried etc, or the execute doesnt land because of those same reasons.

by executing you pretty much put all your eggs in one basket, if something happens that it doesnt kill them you are in trouble. also execute never scaled properly with other abilities and gear at 70. rarely do i think something in the 13-20% range with an execute, even if it crits given resilience. and given a slow 2h'er weapon its not like im executing once a second to get the kill, altho i have tried macro'ing a switch to dw around execute range in arenas to generate enough rage to spam execute, and that was hit/miss, altho in principle it was a nice idea.

similarly, its the same reason rogues no longer ambush or backstab and rarely evis, they want to be in total control of the fight for 100% of your health until you die. there is no burning you energy to 0 wasting 5 points on an evis at 20% hoping that it kills the target. that 5 points is better spent on a ks where you can lock them down until they are dead.

for execute against things like a paladin or shaman or even warrior with a shield on, or hunter with deterrence or rogue with evasion, my money is on the skills i know wont ruin the fight if they dont land. now under 5-7% that changes, as pretty much any warrior ability will get you the kill, and assuming your instants (ms/ww) aren't up, i would resort to an execute in that range and situation. now is the execute talent was 1/2, 2/2 ignores resilience by 50/100% or even 25/50% or perhaps executes ignore target armor by 25/50% or increased crit chance 10/20% any of those things and i think its worth it, that the first 3 would scale it up in pvp, since in pve execute is still fine.

but honestly no i rarely use executes in arena anymore, at least not when the fight still matters. (3v2 or 3v1 i may spam it, but fight is already over at that point)

Why you lose all your rage with execute? With 2/2 you lose 15 rage and talking about Cleave you lose 20 rage. Dont forget that execute gives also 21 more dmg per rage point with 2/2 in IE you would get 105 more dmg from it.

[Azain]

Why you lose all your rage with execute? With 2/2 you lose 15 rage and talking about Cleave you lose 20 rage. Dont forget that execute gives also 21 more dmg per rage point with 2/2 in IE you would get 105 more dmg from it.

i lose all my rage with execute for the exact reason you stated :P

execute consumes all of a warriors rage. yes it grants 21 damage per extra point, but it uses all of my rage. assuming i have no haste buffs up, i would have to wait up to 3.6 seconds in order to use any ability or do more damage. in that time MS debuff will most likely wear off, i have no rage to fear or pummel or intercept.

im not comparing it to cleave or MS, what im saying is if i have 50 rage i would prefer to MS and then save rage for pummel or intercept or fear or WW rather than execute and risk it not killing the target.

[Decapitation]

Warrior who doesnt know that execute uses all rage is explaining me how much is improved cleave damage increase... gg ??? ;D

[Felix]

Warrior who doesnt know that execute uses all rage is explaining me how much is improved cleave damage increase... gg ??? ;D

Dont put on Cleave then.

[Azain]

Warrior who doesnt know that execute uses all rage is explaining me how much is improved cleave damage increase... gg ??? ;D

i think he interpreted it to be that is uses more rage than comparable abilities...
a common misunderstanding, and i still disagree with you on imp cleave

but as felix said its a matter of personal preference, if you find its not working for you by all means dont use it. im just comparing it to imp shouts, lawl, imp demo shout, double lawl, and CP.

assuming your first two tiers are cruelty / wrath, both rage/dps generating abilities, why wouldnt you stay consistent and go for cleave. on the odd chance you win an arena after surviving around <100 health, which has happened to me before but its very few and far between, you will rarely notice the difference that CP gives you.

[Felix]

i think he interpreted it to be that is uses more rage than comparable abilities...
a common misunderstanding, and i still disagree with you on imp cleave

but as felix said its a matter of personal preference, if you find its not working for you by all means dont use it. im just comparing it to imp shouts, lawl, imp demo shout, double lawl, and CP.

assuming your first two tiers are cruelty / wrath, both rage/dps generating abilities, why wouldnt you stay consistent and go for cleave. on the odd chance you win an arena after surviving around <100 health, which has happened to me before but its very few and far between, you will rarely notice the difference that CP gives you.

Thank you Azain. Decapitation, if you willing to put up flames please dont post here.

[Felix]

i lose all my rage with execute for the exact reason you stated :P

execute consumes all of a warriors rage. yes it grants 21 damage per extra point, but it uses all of my rage. assuming i have no haste buffs up, i would have to wait up to 3.6 seconds in order to use any ability or do more damage. in that time MS debuff will most likely wear off, i have no rage to fear or pummel or intercept.

im not comparing it to cleave or MS, what im saying is if i have 50 rage i would prefer to MS and then save rage for pummel or intercept or fear or WW rather than execute and risk it not killing the target.

So how do u feel with 3/3 in Cleave and 3/3 in BC?

[Azain]

So how do u feel with 3/3 in Cleave and 3/3 in BC?

well most people teams are not stupid enough to stand next to each other, altho in the case of a warrior intervening back to a healer or two classes getting snared/rooted near each other i think it can work. sadly for those who have done testing with SS/cleave you know how finicky it is in terms of actually hitting two targets, if they are moving or are close to the range boundary it will tend to not pick them up and xfer the damage. this angers me most with sweeping strikes. overall tho i think that may be the way to go, given the weakness of CP in smaller arena settings.

perhaps 2v2 or 3v3 go BC then cleave/CP and in 5v5 go for cleave then BC/CP

[Felix]

well most people teams are not stupid enough to stand next to each other, altho in the case of a warrior intervening back to a healer or two classes getting snared/rooted near each other i think it can work. sadly for those who have done testing with SS/cleave you know how finicky it is in terms of actually hitting two targets, if they are moving or are close to the range boundary it will tend to not pick them up and xfer the damage. this angers me most with sweeping strikes. overall tho i think that may be the way to go, given the weakness of CP in smaller arena settings.

perhaps 2v2 or 3v3 go BC then cleave/CP and in 5v5 go for cleave then BC/CP

I think that in a 33/28 Spec changing stance and not being able to execute is a really big disadvantage though.Improved Execute gives u the ability to instantly change stances and execute.