Unfair Advantage, missing raid synergy and the combat tree

[El_Vaughn]

I'd like to start some discussion (I'm at work and terribly bored) about the combat tree, missing synergy/raid buffs and the talent unfair advantage.


Unfair Advantage and missing raid synergy


Unfair Advantage as it is now:

Unfair Advantage
Rank 2

Whenever you critically hit an enemy or dodge an attack you gain an Unfair Advantage, increasing your chance to critically hit and dodge by 2% for 8 sec

meh, pretty weak. First of all, why is dodge in there? Blizzard should know by now that we don't want, nor need dodge in raid situations.
This talent as it is now is easylie comparable to two points in malice. A t1 talent every rogue speccs. Such a weak talent so deep in a tree? C'mon, that's lame. It's nothing more than a filler.
Second, why is the buff crit dependant? Ok, in a raid it will always be active when we deal damage.
My guess is that this is also intended as a pvp talent - a pretty weak one, because it's a procc and resilience reduces crit.

But the general idea of this talent isn't that bad. If they make a little change, this could be our raid buff, even one that fits the rogue class!

This talent should look like this:

Unfair Advantage
Rank 3

Whenever you critically hit an enemy or dodge an attack you and your group gain an Unfair Advantage, increasing chance to critically hit and dodge by 3% for 8 sec

- Changed to 3 Ranks. 2 % seems a little low, but 3 % is just fine. When making a combat built, you'll end up like this:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=fZGcVbbVzxMGoVd

All talents that increase your damage are in there and you need one filler. You could put one point in throwing specc or kick, which is rather useless because you'll only get a 50 % chance, plus both talents are unnecessary in a raid environment.
You could specc for stay off execution, which is also useless in raids, even if it works with prey on the weak. If you think about it, when you're below 35% health you'll vanish, are already out of the ae, bandage yourself, or simply die. 5 % damage reduction is useless.
Other options are blade twisting and nerves of steel. Blade twisting would probably be the best option because of hunters steady shot. I'm not quite sure if NoS would be better. On live it would be bad to have it, a resisted fear means you're dead on a boss encounter. Berserker rage does not dispell fear anymore in WotlK, so I guess fear won't play a major role on boss fights. So one extra point in there doesn't really hurt.
Back to Unfair Advantage..

- Changed to a group buff (group only, not raid wide!)

It provides avoidance. There are very few buffs that add avoidance, this could be our niche. Agility is the main stat for rogues (besides hit of course), so dodge would fit perfectly fine for rogues.
This should make rogues more desireable for all brackets (5/10/25 men instances). A tank is always needed, so is dps. The buff is never near useless. Also, dodge is one of the primary tanking stats for feral druids, which adds more to our synergy.
I don't think those 3 % extra crit rate is overpowered. Ferals add 5% melee crit. Moonkins add 5% spellcrit. But that shaman totem adds another 3% spellcrit, but there's nothing that adds another 3% melee crit.

So if they keep our dps high, plus add this buff, rogues will bring enough for raids. I can see one rogue in a tank group, and another one in a melee group.



Combat and PvP Talents

Why are they in there?
The new weak spot for combat, besides the lack of anti-kiting tools, is prey on the weak. This talent only works if you have more health than your opponent. In raids it won't be a problem to keep it active most of the time, but in PvP it will.
Which sane person would specc combat for pvp? The other options are way better. want to use daggers? You'll either go deep sub or assa. Nothing's more horrible than combat dagger for pvp!
Want to use your swords? Then go for shadowstep hemo and put the other points in assa to get cold blood, 20% more heal, 15 % more run speed, 50% reduced snares.
Keep in mind that blizzard already said that you'll be able to switch between two different speccs, something that the players wanted ever since. While it may not make its way into retail release, I'm confident that this option will be implemented some time in WotLK

In my opinion blood splatter should be switched with either stay of execution or throwing specc. Could to the chase should be change to make envenom and evisc the only finisher for mutilate builds. It would also make the assa tree less bloated. There are already enough damage increasing talents in the assa tree, it wouldn't hurt.

[yazaka]

I don't think those 3 % extra crit rate is overpowered. Ferals add 5% melee crit. Moonkins add 5% spellcrit. But that shaman totem adds another 3% spellcrit, but there's nothing that adds another 3% melee crit.

Paladins crusader seal adds 3% melee crit.

[Crispybacon]

Paladins crusader seal adds 3% melee crit.

No, it's all attacks.

[yazaka]

No, it's all attacks.

well true, but still it gives melee
Crusader seal is damn good for raids, giving 3% crit for everyone except healers in the raid = imba.

[b37x]

I support this, El_Vaughn.

[SwiftSM]

If this talent were changed to be group only, and not entire raid, good luck being in anything but the tank group as a rogue. Since a rogue brings no other buffs to the table, if the only one they do bring has 3% dodge on it, you'd be getting stuck with tanks.

[Funkatron]

If this talent were changed to be group only, and not entire raid, good luck being in anything but the tank group as a rogue. Since a rogue brings no other buffs to the table, if the only one they do bring has 3% dodge on it, you'd be getting stuck with tanks.

One rogue would be in the tank group, then the other(s) would be in melee group to give dps wars/enh shammys/kittys +3% crit.

[Vallos]

Hate to play devil's advocate, but Combat has PVP talents because it's a viable PVP spec. Priest/rogue generally uses a fairly deep Combat rogue, and it has some 5v5 viability.

But I don't think that the Unfair Advantage change would be too much to ask for.

[Rambobarbq]

melee get mroe raw crit than caster on gear the reason is simple do you want a mage with 40% crit self buffed running around ?

while as a warrior i easily have 36% crit unbuffed so yes.....

[Baraccus]

LotP from Ferals already gives 5% crit, with the Shammy Agi Totem and Pally Crusader as well. I really can't see them giving Rogues group buffs. Rogues are about all out damage. Other classes are there to provide support to the out and out dps'ers, as well as buff their own damage output.

Anyway, Combat Rogues need to grind and level as well, it's a good solo talent.

[Mascotte]

Hate to play devil's advocate, but Combat has PVP talents because it's a viable PVP spec. Priest/rogue generally uses a fairly deep Combat rogue, and it has some 5v5 viability.

But I don't think that the Unfair Advantage change would be too much to ask for.

The vast majority of healer/rogue teams nowdays run either ShS or Mutilate, Combat Maces is pretty much a has been spec.

And for 5v5, as soon as the opposing team figures out that your combat you instantly become their main target, without having prep/cheat death/ShS to make up for that your in for a rough ride.
Yes combat is more usefull for a rogue then not useing tallent points, but after the harp days its hardly used at all anymore in pvp.

And now OT:
Please give us something to make us more viable in groups, let us add something to a group instead of just leeching of the buffs that we gain from others.
This has been requested allmost daily since WoW Beta, and yet we are still the only dps class wich adds nothing but dps to a raid.

[Vallos]

Builds like this do quiet well and tend to dominate the 2v2 bracket, even now :V

I honestly don't see a huge buff coming the Rogue's way. People still bring them to raids because they're among the most reliable DPS in the game. They're routinely at the top of the DPS chart. Not everyone needs synergy, maybe some classes can just do a billion DPS.

[Amgyn]

PVE is more than just raid/party synergy... you got solo play as well, and i think thats what this talent is about (its also ok in pvp if it procs off resil-reduced-crits)

[SwiftSM]

I really can't see them giving Rogues group buffs. Rogues are about all out damage.

The problem is rogue is the only class in the entire game that brings nothing but damage to a group. Other classes are steadily inching closer and closer to the rogues damage output. If they're even remotely close and rogues don't bring a single buff, why even bring rogues? It's been the argument forever. Rogues need to be far and away the best DPS, and they haven't been for a long time. They will need a buff or two to bring to the group or they will start to lose their raid spots, especially with just about every tree of every class now having viable raid buffs in wrath.

[Mascotte]

Builds like this do quiet well and tend to dominate the 2v2 bracket, even now :V

Your linking me a full pve geared rogue to prove your point?
He might drop a few pieces for when he pvp's to get some resilience, but you can bet that he atleast uses the pve weapons, and prolly even more likely switches to 4/5-4/8 to get both top tier setbonusses.
So yes, a warglaived rogue with swordspec+windfury+orc racial+bloodlust hits like a truck, but that still doesnt prove that combat is a viable as a pvpspec.
Find me 100 more, or even better, find me a list wich shows top 2k+ rogue specs. Wanna bet that the amount of combat rogue's is less then 10%?

Same goes with firemages/destro locks, just because it works in some situations doesnt mean that its a viable pvpspec.
And completly destroying other players because you are able to wear alot of pve gear doesnt change that either.

[Khebul]

Builds like this do quiet well and tend to dominate the 2v2 bracket, even now :V

I honestly don't see a huge buff coming the Rogue's way. People still bring them to raids because they're among the most reliable DPS in the game. They're routinely at the top of the DPS chart. Not everyone needs synergy, maybe some classes can just do a billion DPS.

Even now rogues are getting challenged by hunters and warlocks in terms ow raw dps. But locks and hunters also bring raid utility. Plus surviving in raids is much easer for ranged classes.
That means rogues need to way more damage then any other class to be viable in raids. Otherwise, we'll get replaced with said classes.

The Problem is that there is PvP in WoW, not only PvE. So big damage in PvE equals to overpoweress in PvP...

[L2theBR]

Even now rogues are getting challenged by hunters and warlocks in terms ow raw dps. But locks and hunters also bring raid utility. Plus surviving in raids is much easer for ranged classes.
That means rogues need to way more damage then any other class to be viable in raids. Otherwise, we'll get replaced with said classes.

The Problem is that there is PvP in WoW, not only PvE. So big damage in PvE equals to overpoweress in PvP...

Challenged? Hunters wipe the floor with rogues atm in end-game SWP. Rogues *usually* wipe the floor with destro locks however. Rogues are capped out at about 2.8-3k DPS, hunters are putting up 3.4k-3.7k as BM with Thoridal. At the current stage in beta, rogues are going to be pretty much obsolete, their DPS isn't great and they bring no raid buffs. They will probably be replaced with another cat and most raids won't even have a rogue, 1 at max.

[Yureii]

i completely agree, rogues need to either stay at the top dps spot or provide us with some sort of raid utility..if not our spot in raids is pretty much gone and if our spot is gone..say goodbye to a huge chunk of subscirbers blizz. I'm sure that they will work something out either way for us rogues to be happy in the end..things are still in development atm but as it looks there is a good chance rogue's will be outdone in damage by a few classes going into WOTLK...hope blizz rectumify's this b4 it's too late

[El_Vaughn]

thanks for all the positive answers and the serious discussion here.

Today combat for pvp finally died after the mace specc nerf.

Just to throw something in for the lulz. While driving to work today I thought about patchwerk for some reason... Well say hello to the first dps cockblock encounter where rogues aren't invited. Prey on the Weak sucks.

[Stormrage]

I don't get all the crying about it being the end of the world. Please stop carrying on like it is, there has been no general rogue pass of the talents (like hunters). Untill then you can provide construstive feedback and requests. But seriously you're all going on like this is going to be talent trees come 3.0 release day.