A warning to Raiding Ret Paladins.

[Veliane]

Character progression means a hell of a lot, the game is a lot different at the end of BT/Hyjal than someone who hasn't even really spent anytime in Kara.... (how you can not be exalted with violet at this point in the game and think what you have to say means anything), honestly you resemble the scrubs I see in the BG's and Shatrah asking me why I don't spec deeper into holy yet i'm decked out in full almost everything I can get from BT.

L2play the game and then maybe what you say will have some worthwhile meaning....

Hi, you're downright stupid. Thanks.
You're forgetting this is still a game, who cares if you're super pro and played since day 1 and someone didn't but has the skills? Elitist much, maybe upset because the game is turning casual friendly and know you've wasted your life for nothing and all that is left is sitting in a forum trolling people.

GJ you're mad at someone you don't know about something that doesn't exist now, makes me wonder...



To contribute to this thread also, I wouldn't worry much about it, smart raids will still want us for what they wants us now, utility, plus REAL DPS (chyea no more melee shadow priests).
True we don't have anything stacking but with pot penalities, JotWise = win.

[StormScion]

LEARN TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT.

In WotLK if you are a burden to the healers of a raid by using SoB to "get some extra mana" be prepared to be replaced quickly. With the changes to the class and mechanics, barring being nerfed into oblivion again, there will be a larger pool of Ret Paladins out there and among those will be ones that understand their new role.

Ret Paladins are not meant to be rogues, doing nothing be beating on the mob that is being tanked. If this is the only thing you like to do you will need to reroll as your Ret Pally will be unwelcome on raids. And this is even more true of Ret Paladins that pretend they don't have heal spells & drain the mana of other healers.

Let the rage addicts and rune monkeys suck down the healers mana, Paladins do not need to anymore and in fact will be able to help keep those fools up, while still pumping out good numbers.



The new Retribution Paladin will be doing damage to the mobs, but will be making use of all their other abilities as well. Judgements of the Wise and Sheath of Light are required and ensure that a Ret Paladin will be able to not only put out solid DPS but be able to toss Heals / Hands / Blessings and use offensive spells all without requiring any healing from the other healers for mana.

Learn to love SoV, master keeping the Holy DoT up at all times while using all the other abilities you have during fights. As long as you keep 5 stacks on the mob and judge it every 8 seconds you will be able to use all the other GDCs for anything you want and have solid DPS. Ret Paladins new goal will be to have a solid placement on both the dmage AND healing meters, not just damage.

we should learn to solo 25 raid instances ... in one pull .. couse we are self suffucient

[Rawberry]

we should learn to solo 25 raid instances ... in one pull .. couse we are self suffucient

My Beta Paladin is so imba at the moment, yesterday I solo'ed a bloody 40 man instance!

/equip Crown of Destruction
/flex

[Tigercat]

Get yourself some deathbone gear and you'll look....familiar.....

[Voidseeker]

This whole post is filled with epic levels of fail. Being a retadin in the current live servers, I was trolling the ret forums and came across a link to this post. One of the comments made by another ret paladin was "I don't get it. Warlocks have been hurting themselves to DPS since... forever. They aren't forced to use Drain Life to keep themselves up. Why are ret pallys special? Oh yeah, this kid is a retard."
If you think that Seal of Blood/Martyr is a burden on the healers, your healers are utter trash and need to be replaces far faster than the retadin himself would be, considering that a Lifebloom should be able to refund the health you take from it.

Please feel free to go back to where you came from after actually reading what I posted, and what I posted as a follow up. Also make sure to read up on the changes to wow in WotLK.

we should learn to solo 25 raid instances ... in one pull .. couse we are self suffucient

Wow, that is just fail. The Prot Pally did a little better back on page one but also missed the point. Feel free to follow the above advice and actually read the follow up posts in this topic.


To nip this in the bud:
I will be ignoring any more lame posters that 1) cannot read 2) are unable to get their brain around the idea that WotLK does not equal TBC. These people are obviously not in the beta and/or do not care about the Paladin class enough to read up on / test it. Ret's role IS changing as I have made perfectly clear in my follow up posts, and you random posters are either going to learn to change or be left behind for better Ret Paladins.

[meliancill]

i agree with rawbery lol....

and this thread has lost all meaning to me. im no longer going to up its read count.

[Rawberry]

and this thread has lost all meaning to me. im no longer going to up its read count.

Yeah, I kinda messed this one up didn't I?

I guess I should back out too.. let the peasants theorycraft once more

[Voidseeker]

Sorry to hear that as I would actually enjoy having intelligent people like you two respond/ask questions/point out mistakes in my math.

The random jokers that read the OP and think it is an ORDER to go Holy vs. a WARNING to Ret that they are going to need to grow more in their role should just be ignored.

[Veliane]

Sorry to hear that as I would actually enjoy having intelligent people like you two respond/ask questions/point out mistakes in my math.

The random jokers that read the OP and think it is an ORDER to go Holy vs. a WARNING to Ret that they are going to need to grow more in their role should just be ignored.

The truth is, we pay for the game, we play what we want, be Holy, Prot or Ret.
More so now that Ret is still fun to play and shaping up to be a great spec.

Anyone who says otherwise has the right to play whathefuckever spec/class he wants, unless he/she decides to renew my suscription then tell me to stay back and heal.

[meliancill]

ok if you want to have discution that means somthing here it is.

while yes i agree that rets are going to be stoping NOW AND THEN to drop a heal when there attacks are on cd just to help out the raid. and i think that as a hybrid i think bliz means us to do this and not try to be a rogue or a fury warrior but they ment for us to do what is needed at the time.

my opinion is in both 25 mans and 10 mans ( less 25 more 10 ) you are going to see ret paladins throwing heals because they can get mana back to fast and can afford to throw the heal to help. however i dont think that ret paladins should drop everything constantly to do so. like i said and i have seen it so many times were the tank takes a bad hit and needs fast healing. as a ret that is a time i would help out the healers and throw some flashes and stop dps to do so. however keeping track of the tanks hp constantly isnt our job in a raid. as ret we are there for buffs and dps, we CAN heal if the raid is having a slight problem or there is a boss fight that requires fast raid healing like that boss in bt that heals 1% a second untill your raid is full hp. those are times i would look at healing as ret or like i said if the tank gets smashed and needs hp fast.

that is what i think the fucher for rets will look like. not pure dps not mostly healing some dps but a mix of the 2 when it is needed.

[Voidseeker]

The truth is, we pay for the game, we play what we want, be Holy, Prot or Ret.
More so now that Ret is still fun to play and shaping up to be a great spec.

Anyone who says otherwise has the right to play whathefuckever spec/class he wants, unless he/she decides to renew my suscription then tell me to stay back and heal.

I fully agree with you Stevet. That is why I said it was a warning to RAIDING RET Paladins. They pay their 15 a month, they want to play ret, they want to raid. All cool.

The warning was that the other people in the raid may not want to deal with a Ret Paladin that is stuck in TBC mode when there are a lot of other Ret Paladins that will not be a drag on the raid.

There WILL be other Paladins that pay their 15 a month and jump at the changes to Ret raiding and those raiders will be the ones invited to go on raids. The TBC mode only others will just have to deal with losing their spot. And if they want to raid they are basically paying their 15 for nothing.

[meliancill]

well as it is if i was to go back to leading raids ( only got to ssc / tk :'( ) i would bring 2 rets at least just because with the 1 mana pot per boss fight you are going to need rets to act like the mana pots for your healers and raid caster dps. rets are going to be the new mana pots in wrath

[Voidseeker]

my opinion is in both 25 mans and 10 mans ( less 25 more 10 ) you are going to see ret paladins throwing heals because they can get mana back to fast and can afford to throw the heal to help. however i dont think that ret paladins should drop everything constantly to do so. like i said and i have seen it so many times were the tank takes a bad hit and needs fast healing. as a ret that is a time i would help out the healers and throw some flashes and stop dps to do so. however keeping track of the tanks hp constantly isnt our job in a raid. as ret we are there for buffs and dps, we CAN heal if the raid is having a slight problem or there is a boss fight that requires fast raid healing like that boss in bt that heals 1% a second untill your raid is full hp. those are times i would look at healing as ret or like i said if the tank gets smashed and needs hp fast.

that is what i think the fucher for rets will look like. not pure dps not mostly healing some dps but a mix of the 2 when it is needed.

Your vision of the future is right in line with mine. Ret will never stop and heal full out, they and the others in the raid lose the benefit of Judgements of the Wise if that happens.

But let's take a look at the cycle of GCD with TBC mindset:

00.0 - Fight start - assuming SoB is already up before pull as it is 2 min.
01.5 - Judgement of {your assignment}
03.0 - CS
04.5 - DS
06.0 - EVERYTHING ON CD, wasted.
07.5 - wow, still on CD, wasted.
09.0 - CS. Woot, I can use this one.
10.5 - Judgement of {your assignment}
12.0 - Wasted
13.5 - DS
15.0 - Wasted

At some point in there the Paladin will be able to use one of the wasted GCDs for activating AV, Con, and if they do not nerf the macro maybe gearswap+ShoR. But there are going to be a lot of wasted GCDs no matter how you look at it as any ability that would reset the swing timer, or cause a delay with them will be avoided. Also the Paladin will be getting heals that could be better used on other players for damage that he/she does not need to take.


Now let's look at WotLK
00.0 - Fight start - assuming SoV is already up before pull as it is 2 min.
01.5 - Judgement of {your assignment}
03.0 - CS
04.5 - DS (by this point there should be 4 or 5 stacks on the mob, depending on weapon speed)
06.0 - HL (*)
07.5 - {still casting}
09.0 - CS.
10.5 - Judgement of {your assignment}
12.0 - FoL (*)
13.5 - DS
15.0 - Consecrate (*)


The (*) are for an open GCD that could be used for anything that is optional - Heals, Hands, buffs, etc. As is shown, the WotLK Ret can make better used of his/her cycle of GCD by using SoV as the DPS will be about the same with the DoT going on the mob, the Judgements will hit harder - giving a higher JotW mana return than SoB - and the Paladin can use the open GCD for anything - even those abilities that reset the swing timer as the auto attack is not the main source of DPS, but instead an addition to it.

{edit: took out a repeat line that should not be there}

[Voidseeker]

well as it is if i was to go back to leading raids ( only got to ssc / tk :'( ) i would bring 2 rets at least just because with the 1 mana pot per boss fight you are going to need rets to act like the mana pots for your healers and raid caster dps. rets are going to be the new mana pots in wrath

Other classes are getting mana regen as well. Healers are getting as a chance to proc, hunters, etc.

There may well be room for 2 rets in a raid (as Ret can OT well with a gear swap) but the mana regen is being spread around enough that you should be able do it with one - if there are enough other regen abilities in the raid.

[meliancill]

i see your point im going to have to test that out in 5 mans come wrath and see if that works out.

[Karpalo]

Who won?

[Voidseeker]

Ret Paladins in WotLK?

Well, they got a minor set back with Judgements being broken this build, but all in all they win.

[Karpalo]

I ment the troll war.

[Voidseeker]

The trolls came, posted inane / uninformed comments, one got rolled by Rawberry, and have not seen them since.

I am sure there will be more though, as the OP seems to be written at too high of a reading level for most people on the internet. ;D

[mcstu]

I disagree with Rawberry's opinion that we are all fine and dandy and should be nerfed to the stoneage- i am quite happy to fight for as much as i can get.

However, his post is positively einstein-like compared to yours. No wonder you got flamed. You came across as arrogant and ignorant of what it means to be a raiding ret

Retribution paladins are never going to be taken into a raid 'to throw the odd heal around' If you have ever tried to backup heal as aret, even in beta, you would know why. We have a very small mana pool, little spell crit (despite conviction), and mobs hit harder than your heals will ever be effective for. If the ret is having to throw heals around things are bad.

your wotlk cycle fails, totally, my guild would probably drop me if I used it. They bring me to dps, and enough healers to do the job.

Here is why

- SoV along with SoR will not be the damage seals in live wotlk. Martyr will be, otherwise what was the pointof introducing them to alliance. The judgement of light and DS will heal the paladin of any damage he takes from SoB automatically.

- You fail to take into account autoattacks that will still be a huge part of our dps and will help in our procs. You keep on saying 'wasted' in your cycle but i do not count my autoattacks as wasted- they do (atm) 45% of a ret paladins dps. I do not feel the need to cancel my swing timer and deprive the raid of my dps.

- GCD is part of the swing timer. All our seal procs rely on our autoattacks landing. Why would we ever screw them up by trying to throw off a holy light that will do sod all apart from severely reducing my mana pool?

- you seem to have never understood that a ret is there for damage whilst providing some utility. He is not taken to heal or even back up heal. A raid leader will bring enough primary healers to do the job. Not difficult to understand. If its a damage sensitive fight i.e doing SoB= death, then all paladins will use SoC (assuming SoV and SoR are fixed), which only has a small dps reduction, they are not stupid.

There is more but i am tired. You will probably think of something to say, but i dont care.