PVE Builds

[Mustafa]

Mutilate PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...51005005005v2z

Combat PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...1251530020302t

Subtlety Backstab PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...20050135031251

Strangely, subtlety backstab seems better than combat sword.
Mutilate > SB > Combat Sword

Questions:

Will the new envenom be enough to become the new mutilate finisher?
1% Crit OR 10% damage on instant and deadly?

[Varithorn1]

Your mutilate PvE fails. Spec 46/20/5 for mut pve.

Edit: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

[Mustafa]

66 points out of 71? Oo

And what is worth losing 5 points in mutilate for Relentless strikes?

Hunger and mutilate out of the list.
6% crit for 3 points
Raid wide 3% crit for 3 points
10% damage to poisons for 1 point
Cut to the chase?

[Battlemaster]

Your mutilate PvE fails. Spec 46/20/5 for mut pve.

Edit: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

sadly sir, you are the failure here, those are outdated talent trees

[Madharia]

Mutilate PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...51005005005v2z

The later tiers of Assassination are pretty cluttered currently, while some tiers such as tier 5 seem quite empty with just Cold Blood, which is only REALLY useful because it's required for seal fate.
Looking at your spec, I'd go with http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...351005005w502z instead, giving the already energy starved muti relentless strikes and Focused Attacks. If Hunger for Blood turns out to be a waste of energy, the point is probably going to Turn the Tables instead.
I'll be glad if HfB removes the negative orc Blood Fury effect and refunds energy, though, and probably take it if my dream comes true.

Combat PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...1251530020302t

Currently combat is so full of stupid and useless filler talents that it makes me want to completely skip this tree, but I'll give it a try anyway: http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...5212515300203v
Not much has been changed from what you had, sword spec changed to dagger/fist spec. Sword spec was only better because it could proc windfury and vice versa. Since windfury is 20% haste instead of extra attacks, the damage increase from 5% crit is greater than that of 5% extra attacks. Why? Primarily because the crit affects special attacks too, doubling their damage, whereas the extra attack just gives you normal melee damage on top of the special attack, far from doubling the damage!
Elusiveness was also dumped in favor of Ruthlessness. Did you get it just for the CloS cooldown reduction? It's really not that awesome!

Subtlety Backstab PVE:
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...20050135031251

Seems like a rather solid spec, but I'd probably drop Shadow Dance and one point from Filthy Tricks to get 5/5 Precision. I'm also thinking that the tree is still too PvP based to have the capability of becoming a solid PvE tree. From a PvE viewpoint, the tree seems to have even more filler talents than the current combat tree, some of which are quite useless for raiding and only slightly useful for 5-man instances.

Strangely, subtlety backstab seems better than combat sword.
Mutilate > SB > Combat Sword

Questions:

Will the new envenom be enough to become the new mutilate finisher?
1% Crit OR 10% damage on instant and deadly?

In my opinion Mutilate > Combat Fist > Combat Sword > Sub

Answers:

The wotlk version of envenom (according to wowhead) scales better with AP than rupture AND also scales with crit. It's quite definitely going to replace rupture as a primary finisher for Mutilate, maybe even for other specs.

1% crit vs 10% poison damage is quite hard to decide yet. Currently on my BT-geared rogue my offhand Deadly Poison does approximately 5-6% of my total damage. In WotLK we'll have poisons on both hands thanks to the windfury change. We'll also get deadly brew, which is effectively 2 poisons per weapon AND we are getting new poison ranks somewhere down the line. If the poisons do more than 10% of our damage, though, the poison boosting talent will be worth the point(s).

[Deleted]

I would spec something like this personally http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...51005005004v2z. You could basically run with an attack cycle like: garrote muti snd muti muti evis (get snd refreshed) muti muti rupture muti muti evis and so on, sounds good at least.

[Lesane]

Stop making stupid builds without relentless strikes, they won't work.

[rogueheart]

so i like this build high crit to increase chance of "Cut to the Chase", but sadly i don't have "Relentless Strikes" but if u don't mind losing the crit to dagger in the combat tree you can pick it up

Crit
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...51005203004v2z

with "Relentless Strikes"
http://www.war-tools.com/t57736.html...351005004w502z

[Rogue101]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

7/51/13 Combat Swords build.

[eil]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

52/12/7 raiding mutilate.

The philosophy behind the build is to keep SnD (with evis), rupture, and hunger up constantly, which shouldn't be very difficult. 30 seconds affords about 300 energy which would give a damage rotation of mut - mut - rupture - mut - evis - hunger for blood - repeat--all of which adds up to 245 energy assuming one relentless procs and no refund for hunger and no focused attack procs, and the cycle should take just under the 30 seconds allotted to keep SnD up and hunger stacked with rupture dropping for about a second. if a particular rotation goes really well because of relentless or focused attack procs you might be able to throw another mut in before the evis.

There's probably some room to move a few points around in the assassination tree (infectious poisons?). I think the early poison talents outweigh the benefit from imp evis or ruthlessness but I'm not certain. I took master poisoner over turn the tables and infectious, I'll have to see how the math pans out ><.

I don't know how I feel about ruthlessness in a mutilate build, it doesn't seem very necessary to me but I could be way wrong, so I'd like some opinions on it. How it stands now it might wasted before a rupture but a bit of a bonus on an evis, whatever.


I haven't raided on my rogues in ages, let me know if this build is terrible.

[Briareos]

Ok. Let's go over your combat build from right to left.

I see you've gone further down than Relentless Strikes in Subtlety to get serrated blades. That's cool but I would only spec that way on high armour bosses (Brutallus for example). Elusiveness is not needed at all, especially since Vanish is now a 3 minute cooldown and vanishing once during a ~5 minute fight was more than sufficient. To compliment PvE more I would've put 2 points in Sleight of Hand and not Improved Sap. This is me thinking on a single boss point of view as improved sap would only be useful in 5 man, maybe 10 man content?

Either way I believe only 5 points in Relentless Strikes here is enough. This frees up 10 points for the Assassination tree.

Your combat tree. Nothing wrong here, I would have put all my points in exactly the same places. Sword spec of course, however, Dagger combat might receive a face lift so hold on to your butt.

Assassination tree. As stated earlier, you now have 10 free points. 2 points in Blood Splatter; This really can't be missed now. 30% more damage to rupture for Combat Rogues? A wet dream! 3 points in Ruthlessness is next and the last 5 points in Lethality. More bang for your buck.

Final build http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

[Madharia]

so i like this build high crit to increase chance of "Cut to the Chase", but sadly i don't have "Relentless Strikes" but if u don't mind losing the crit to dagger in the combat tree you can pick it up

You don't need to crit for Cut to the Chase anymore. It's enough if evis/envenom HITS. Since you are using the already outdated talent template, I won't comment, except that picking Blood Spatter in the envenom tree seems a bit silly. Keep in mind that in WotLK envenom will gain 0.35 damage per AP, while rupture gains only 0.3 and can not crit. With the new talents and the envenom change that increases poison proc chance for a moment losing your poison stack on the target probably won't "make up" for the loss of damage on using rupture instead of envenom.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

7/51/13 Combat Swords build.

I think this is the spec Combat was meant to be like, using SS for combo points, keeping SnD up and using rupture for damage. Serrated Blades and Blood Spatter are very solid talents for increasing Rupture damage (and also armor penetration). For real min-maxing I would pick Close Quarters Combat instead of sword spec (for reasons stated in my previous post), but that obviously depends on your weapon. In a raid environment Master of Deception isn't very useful and you'd gain a (tiny) bit of extra damage by moving 2 points into Opportunity for more Garrote damage.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

52/12/7 raiding mutilate.

The philosophy behind the build is to keep SnD (with evis), rupture, and hunger up constantly, which shouldn't be very difficult. 30 seconds affords about 300 energy which would give a damage rotation of mut - mut - rupture - mut - evis - hunger for blood - repeat--all of which adds up to 245 energy assuming one relentless procs and no refund for hunger and no focused attack procs, and the cycle should take just under the 30 seconds allotted to keep SnD up and hunger stacked with rupture dropping for about a second. if a particular rotation goes really well because of relentless or focused attack procs you might be able to throw another mut in before the evis.

There's probably some room to move a few points around in the assassination tree (infectious poisons?). I think the early poison talents outweigh the benefit from imp evis or ruthlessness but I'm not certain. I took master poisoner over turn the tables and infectious, I'll have to see how the math pans out ><.

I don't know how I feel about ruthlessness in a mutilate build, it doesn't seem very necessary to me but I could be way wrong, so I'd like some opinions on it. How it stands now it might wasted before a rupture but a bit of a bonus on an evis, whatever.


I haven't raided on my rogues in ages, let me know if this build is terrible.

Once again, because of scaling, getting Blood Spatter (or threatening to use Evis) in the Envenom tree seems silly. Vigor is also a bit questionable, since the 10 extra energy will only be useful in the first burst of damage. I personally think it's a wasted talent. Move the points from Blood Spatter and Vigor to Ruthlessness and get one point from Quick Recovery to Lethality and the bottom half of the tree will start looking good.
You can also lose Improved Slice and Dice because you shouldn't have any problems keeping it up by simply hitting Envenom every once in a while (it should be your primary finisher if you spec Mutilate, anyway!) The Imp SnD points are better spent in Infectious Poisons (20% extra damage for poisons seems like a very solid bonus to something that will probably be around 12-15% of your total damage; the talent will increase your dps by 2.4-3% for two points. Compare that to 2% extra crit for daggers, which is approximately an 2% increase in your damage(Weighed down by the fact that Deadly Poison can't crit but also weighed up by Seal Fate proccing more often)) and the remaining point in Quick Recovery could be put into Turn the Tables.

Like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

[Briareos]

it should be your primary finisher if you spec Mutilate, anyway!

Don't know about that, to be honest. Envenom consumes deadly poisons on the target. Deadly poison would do alot more damage if left alone to tick especially since there are a few talents now that increase poison damage done. Eviscerate may be a better finisher to use.

[Madharia]

Now that Envenom got changed to increase poison proc chance by 25% for 1+CP seconds and since Muti rogues need to take Improved Poisons anyway, we are looking at 20% (instant poison proc) + 25% = 55% default procrate for poisons, which is increased to 80% for up to 6 seconds after an Envenom. I don't think losing maybe one tick of Deadly Poison will really be hurting our damage enough to make Eviscerate worthwhile.

[loder]

Combat PVE is dead. Let it rest now.

[Klokie]

thing is, The master Poisoner talent does not stack with Jugdment of the crusader, which a Paladin going for Sheat of light could easely pick up^^ so IMO thoose point can be put in imp daggers to increase your crit another 3%^^

[eil]

You can also lose Improved Slice and Dice because you shouldn't have any problems keeping it up by simply hitting Envenom every once in a while (it should be your primary finisher if you spec Mutilate, anyway!)

I agree with you on vigor and QR, I just took them because of personal preference but they aren't necessary. However, I think imp SnD will still be needed to maintain any sort of decent rotation, especially if you plan to keep hunger up. 21 seconds isn't enough time to put up a 5pt rupture and get a 5pt envenom and stack hunger, not that you need a 5pt envenom but it will help replenish the 5 stack deadly that you just lost.

Also, I don't see how blood spatter doesn't scale--it's a raw 30% increase to the current #2 finisher (behind SnD). Rupture is always going to do more damage per energy than either envenom or evis if it can tick out.

I still don't see the necessity of ruthlessness in a mutilate build either, in full raid gear and buffs (lotp / master poisoner etc) your mutilate crit rate will be around 60% making the probability of not critting with at least one hand 16% and the probability of not critting with at least one hand over two mutilates around 2.5%. In addition, the extra point from a ruthlessness proc will just put you at 4/5 most of the time and just results in the same finisher rotation only with less damage or wasting 1-2 combo points from a second mutilate. Either way, when the odds are 84% that your main combo attack will generate 3 combo points spending 3 talent points to have a 60% shot at one more seems like a waste.

[Varithorn1]

I like this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

[Madharia]

Rupture is always going to do more damage per energy than either envenom or evis if it can tick out.

According to wotlk.wowhead.com, Envenom will get 0.35 damage per AP and Rupture only 0.3 AND it can not crit. If these numbers are going to stay like they are, I see Envenom going past Rupture in efficiency. I based my previous posts mainly on this information and that is why I didn't see a reason to ever use Rupture as Assassination spec. Good enough reason not to get Blood Spatter and Imp SnD?

EDIT: The key word is "will". Currenty rupture outscales envenom by getting 0.24 damage per AP while envenom only gets 0.15 per AP

[philomel]

Combat Swords - 15/51/5

10 extra energy FTW. Anyone have suggestions on changing anything for a combat sword rogue? I think we won't really have to change much in our play style. The only really new things is Killing Spree.

I guess we will have to see if having 10 extra energy or an extra 6% crit damage on SS is better. I'm thinking the energy will probably help more.