Can someone please explain dimishing returns

[Gogandantes]

Is it the more you have the lower the results you see from new gear?

Is there a cap you can go to before you hit a certain "no point in adding more"

[CreativeInstitute]

It's got nothing to do with gear or stats at all.

It's a system implemented by Blizzard to prevent chain cc. Say a mage polymorphs you, you are cc'd for 10 seconds, after that, if he polymorphs you again, you'll only be cc'd for 6(?) seconds, then if he does it again, it'll be like 1 second and after that you'll be immune to polymorph for 15 or so seconds.

My memory is hazy on the exact numbers but that's what dimishing returns are. The effect is diminished to prevent it being spammed and overpowered.

Again, gear, stats, +hit etc etc have nothing to do with it. You have no power over it.

[Bucketojoy]

Affirmative. Certain traps are on different diminishing return timers as well, Fear, terror, and polymorph all use different DR timers, for instance. So you can be feared for 10 seconds, poly'd for ten seconds, then terror'd for 10. I think it's got like a 30 second cooldown before they can be used again, so in theory two or three people can keep one person locked down 100% of the time.

[Lightfist]

It's got nothing to do with gear or stats at all.

It's a system implemented by Blizzard to prevent chain cc. Say a mage polymorphs you, you are cc'd for 10 seconds, after that, if he polymorphs you again, you'll only be cc'd for 6(?) seconds, then if he does it again, it'll be like 1 second and after that you'll be immune to polymorph for 15 or so seconds.

My memory is hazy on the exact numbers but that's what dimishing returns are. The effect is diminished to prevent it being spammed and overpowered.

Again, gear, stats, +hit etc etc have nothing to do with it. You have no power over it.

This isn't quite true. Diminishing returns DO affect stats...but only for tanks. I'll try to explain more if you're a tank, if not, this quote covers it nicely.

[Wryiot]

just to clarify...it does take more stats the higher the level for the points to mean something. This stat decay was implemented by blizzard at the end of Vanilla WoW during the talent point release just before TBC. The only stat i can think of that doesn't decay is stamina.

[Gogandantes]

oh ok...

so if someone says "Parry is subject to dimishing returns", that means, without the system a tank could possibly parry every melee attack?

i just thought it mean like...you have 300 parry, add an item that had 40 parry you will get 340 parry....BUT if you had say 500 parry, and added 40 parry with diminishing returns you would only get 505 Parry...


but how does it work in PvE then? (if we use parry as example)

[Gogandantes]

and yes i am a tank

[Ronark]

Is it the more you have the lower the results you see from new gear?

Is there a cap you can go to before you hit a certain "no point in adding more"

It's got nothing to do with gear or stats at all.

It's a system implemented by Blizzard to prevent chain cc. Say a mage polymorphs you, you are cc'd for 10 seconds, after that, if he polymorphs you again, you'll only be cc'd for 6(?) seconds, then if he does it again, it'll be like 1 second and after that you'll be immune to polymorph for 15 or so seconds.

My memory is hazy on the exact numbers but that's what dimishing returns are. The effect is diminished to prevent it being spammed and overpowered.

Again, gear, stats, +hit etc etc have nothing to do with it. You have no power over it.

Not 100% true.

There is certain cap where any additional points of a particular stat (like Hit, Crit, Defense) are generally less effective on a per-point basis.

For example, each point of Defense raises your chance to dodge and parry, as well as reduce the chance you'll be critically hit. However, once past 540 defense, each additional point of Defense rating will add less dodge/parry chance than the point proceeding it had in an exponential decay. In other words, if until 540 defense you get say 2% dodge and parry (lol I wish), then the point after that will only give 1.98% chance dodge/parry, and after that 1.95% dodge/parry, etc. etc., all the way to X which would give 0 dodge or parry.

Take the following graph:


If Current represents the amount of Dodge or Parry gained until 540, and Time is an additional Defense past 540, then the line is the amount of additional Dodge and Parry you gain.

[Gogandantes]

oh ok, cool thanks for that, i wasnt too sure. Is there a site or something that lets you know when its just about pointless for a tank (for example) to add any more of a certain stat?

[Ronark]

Forgot to add:



'Cause Knowledge is Power!

[Lightfist]

Diminishing returns was originally designed because, or at least partially, there were rogue tanks. Rogues could, if they tried, have over 102.4% chance to dodge...making them dodge literally everything. Now, obviously, this was a problem.Parry and dodge, since they are full avoidance stats, are subject to diminishing returns; there's a table that shows the rate, though I've forgotten where - try Elitistjerks or Tankspot. After a certain %, each point of parry/dodge gives a little less to that % chance...until eventually if gives none.

[NoAbloIngles]

all u need to know about Diminishing Returns and Tanking

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

[Tabu34]

Didn't they nerf dodge and buff parry so that they are equivalent or something?
Because if they did than that link is outdated =]

[Lightfist]

Didn't they nerf dodge and buff parry so that they are equivalent or something?
Because if they did than that link is outdated =]

They didn't buff Parry, and the nerf to Dodge was very little. I doubt it'll matter much.

[Ronark]

They didn't buff Parry, and the nerf to Dodge was very little. I doubt it'll matter much.

They did buff Parry to be on a per-point basis as Dodge.

[NoAbloIngles]

Didn't they nerf dodge and buff parry so that they are equivalent or something?
Because if they did than that link is outdated =]

they didnt change de Diminishing Return table, just the amount of rating needed to reach 1% of parry/dodge (equal)

[Deadaslead]

all u need to know about Diminishing Returns and Tanking

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

Note that the math on this has changed since 3.2, so the information in the first post there isn't necessarily accurate. The supposed outcome of Blizzard's rebalancing is that dodge and parry should be equal now point for point. Whether this is mathematically true or not, I can't claim to know.

Diminishing returns affects both CC and avoidance, in similar but not identical ways due to their differing mechanics. An important thing to remember is that, like Ronark explained, diminishing returns only affects the conversion rate between avoidance rating and avoidance %, it has no effect on the avoids themselves. That is to say, parrying doesn't explicitly decrease your chance to parry the next attack. Statistically it's less likely (implicitly), but your avoidance percentages will stay the same no matter how many times you parry or dodge or get missed in a row.

Also, it wasn't implemented because of rogues...I'm sure the numbers for converting agility to dodge were tweaked after that episode, but DRs exist beyond that. It was implemented to normalize the benefit of adding more avoidance stats. The more avoidance you have the better avoidance gets per point (WITHOUT diminishing returns, just for this example). Bear with me: If you increase your avoidance from 50% to 60%, you are decreasing the chance you will get hit from 50% to 40%, or a 20% reduction. If you go from 60% avoidance to 70%, you are decreasing your chance to be hit from 40% to 30%, a 25% reduction. So Blizzard took this scaling into account and implemented diminishing returns to ensure that it takes more points to get from 60 to 70% than it does from 50 to 60%, normalizing the benefit.

recap:
DRs only affect the conversion of rating to skill/percentages, not the act of parrying.
That thread is a little dated but Tankspot is still the best website ever.
Rogues are good, but not quite good enough to have tanking mechanics modeled after them.

[arel00]

As Ronark said, Diminishing Returns (for tanks) mean that your ratings, Parry/Dodge/Defense (agility as well), don't give a linear enhancing on your effective Parry/Dodge/Miss chances.

Regarding the DRs, it is important to note that *all* stats affecting the same value will suffer from the same Diminishing Return. In other words: if you hit the DR on Dodge, it doesn't matter if you stack Dodge Rating, Agility or Defense to improve your dodge chance, they all hit the same wall.

Regarding what is affected, Miss chance, Dodge chance, Parry chance are affected. Block chance isn't, I think. Block Value is subject to a cap, but that's a different issue.

Regarding 3.2, they simply gave Dodge and Parry the same rate-to-value conversion. Parry DR still his way sooner than Dodge. As far as I know, Dodge starts to cut insanely (at the point of not being worth it) at roughly 28-30% dodge *buffed*. Parry cuts at roughly 23-24%.

[Whoopzz]

They did buff Parry to be on a per-point basis as Dodge.

I believe I read on the patch notes that parry still diminishes faster than dodge.

[Ronark]

I believe I read on the patch notes that parry still diminishes faster than dodge.

They scale the same until both Parry and Dodge reach the cap before diminishing, and after that point Parry scales worse than Dodge.