Is Elitist Jerks wrong for a change? (Regarding Unholy DPS)

[Snebbles]

Grats, Einstein, thanks for telling us that theorycrafted DPS won't match IRL raid DPS. Your breakthrough is amazing.


The point of theorycraft max isn't to crystal ball predict your DPS. It's to maximize your DPS.

Let's take 2 identically geared toons played by two absolutely identical clones. One has specced the theorycraft max damage spec. The other has not. Both go to the same raid and do the exact same thing. I predict that neither will reach the "max DPS" shown by, say Rawr. I also predict that one will do better than the other. Can you guess which one?

EJ didn't ban you for disagreeing. They banned you for stupidity. I can tell from just the above post.

My first post on EJ was something 100% totally factually absolutely wrong. Wrong as wrong could be. I didn't get banned. Why? Because I showed up with a question, a hypothesis, and numbers.

It just turned out that there was another, better explanation for my numbers. They don't ban you for disagreeing. Or being wrong. They ban you for being a jackass.

EJ never banned me at all, you fail, now go back there and start writing numbers that don't do anything useful.

Because EJ has a history of suppressing info, even info that's backed up with statistics and raw data, when it conflicts with the general accepted opinion of their regular authors and moderators.

Re: Arcane vs Fire in TBC prior to 4pc T6

^
|
This.

[arantes]

EJ doesn't suppress info, it suppresses anecdotal evidence. The anecdotal evidence may point to a mistake in the current "theory" but it's not the right way to address it. The right way to address it is to employ the same falsifiable methodology other theorycrafters employ and come up with an even better theory. If you think anecdotal evidence and gut feeling is something reliable to go on for such discussions you're better off hanging out on creationist websites.

Seriously, complaining about being banned by EJ for violating a rule is like a man complaining about not being allowed to use the women's bathroom or a driver complaining about being ticketed for going the wrong way on a street. In fact it's worse, cause EJ's rules are clearly posted and easy to read while the above analogies are things society just assumes you know. Frankly I wish the forums I moderate (not WoW related) had such strict rules, it's good for limiting discussion to what they want and that's just fine. There's nothing wrong with a site choosing to limit who can post and who can't based on a poster's ability to follow rules and contribute to the discussion.

[Toogood]

Elitist Jerks do ''Theory-crafting. There end results may have flaws and there given dps calculated figures is just a theoretical benchmark, which can't be obtained
(As it assumes everything will be carried out in a perfect situation). You take there findings and calculations and research with a grain of salt. Ensidia members like Tun and Buzzkill, hate EJ, as they've got them on some flaws, which they would not accept.

[melathys]

I didn't read the whole thread, but, the 17/0/54 spec, so far as I could tell, is optimal...for the next patch, when the buff to scourge strike happens.

Although personally, I went 16/0/55, dropped a point in dark conviction for morbidity

[Fargom]

Most of the people who think EJ is somehow "wrong" could learn a lesson from the Ban that idiot druid from ensida got, allow me to quote the almighty bart

"Your perspective is fatally flawed, logically speaking. You are guilty of Appeal to Authoritah, by which I mean you assume your own "personal logic" is superior to the empirical study and use of carefully-derived formulae available in an accepted simulation. Despite massive evidence to the contrary, you assume your inability to attain the listed damage numbers is due to logical flaws in the spreadsheet, not the fact that you suck."

That right there sums up why using math and proper theorycrafting are always better than "well, lols I beat the other guy in my raid so my spec is gud" crap most people spew.


As for the accuracy of the information, its peer review, if something is "wrong" its because nobody has proven the alternatives to be right. When things change, we update our threads at EJ. Recently it was proven that 15/0/55 (+1) is superior to 3/13/55 for DW unholy. I listened to the arguments, and once the info was proven I updated the OP. Peer review is the key, you people who just want the answer now now now are the crap on the bottom of a good theorycrafter's boots.


That said, feel free to let me know about anything that is "wrong" with my DW thread. Hell, post and let me know, If you find errors I'll update the OP. This is what EJ is all about, collectively finding out the best way to play your character. http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-d...venge_offhand/

Instead of complaining that "EJ is wrong" how about you join the conversation and help. My guess is most of you EJ haters are just idiots who got banned because you can't use a search tool.

[Wraith]

The spec and information on EJ is correct if you play it correctly. I switched to it when i got the 4pc bonus and the 10man Ony sword and have never looked back.

Gemming is a big issue for you. You are trying to match gem bonuses that are not worth having. You need to make sure you get your meta gem requirements met, then you gem straight strength or strength\crit. Crit is important with 4 T9.
Your expertise is still low even with an expertise trinket. Greatness card would be ideal if not the arp trinket from 5man toc norm is still better. Arp does effect white dmg which people tend to forget, so its not entirely useless, it just effects less attacks than a blood dk. U should avoid arp, but with your gear better is still better even if not ideal.
I would suggest replacing your axe with the 10 or 25man Ony one when you can.

DPS numbers... Dummies. You must never use the one in the Ebon hold for starters. It doesn't display Necrosis dmg properly, blood caked or unholy blight. NFI why, but its crap. If your alliance use the solo dummy in Ironforge, if your horde??? where is a dummy not near anything else. Testing a build with howling blast in ogrimar is stupid.

Real life dps tests. Heroics are for chumps, you can't test anything in a heroic. For a build that requires ramp up everything will be dead before you hit max dps.

Test in raid with a consistant grp make up. Get might, kings, a marks hunter or blood dk and either a frost imp icy talons or enhance shaman. This will give you most buffs you need. In a 10 man 3D zerg as unholy i pull between 6.5k and 7.5k dependant on where the flame walls comes from, on most bosses in Norm 25 toc i will do between 6-7k. Our blood and frost DK's do between 5-6k, but that said any build with comparable gear and skill levels can achieve dps within 500dps of another good build.

If it wasn't for EJ, this site would have no good information about specs, if it wasn't for EJ people would be creating all sorts of fail builds. At least they give people with no idea a guide on what they should do, if they fail at it then thats another issue.

[Raptorg]

EJ doesn't suppress info, it suppresses anecdotal evidence. The anecdotal evidence may point to a mistake in the current "theory" but it's not the right way to address it. The right way to address it is to employ the same falsifiable methodology other theorycrafters employ and come up with an even better theory. If you think anecdotal evidence and gut feeling is something reliable to go on for such discussions you're better off hanging out on creationist websites.

Seriously, complaining about being banned by EJ for violating a rule is like a man complaining about not being allowed to use the women's bathroom or a driver complaining about being ticketed for going the wrong way on a street. In fact it's worse, cause EJ's rules are clearly posted and easy to read while the above analogies are things society just assumes you know. Frankly I wish the forums I moderate (not WoW related) had such strict rules, it's good for limiting discussion to what they want and that's just fine. There's nothing wrong with a site choosing to limit who can post and who can't based on a poster's ability to follow rules and contribute to the discussion.

But men are allowed to use women's bathrooms..

It's just really embarrassing and weird when you're "caught in the act."

[Kinettik]

Elitist Jerks do ''Theory-crafting. There end results may have flaws and there given dps calculated figures is just a theoretical benchmark, which can't be obtained
(As it assumes everything will be carried out in a perfect situation). You take there findings and calculations and research with a grain of salt. Ensidia members like Tun and Buzzkill, hate EJ, as they've got them on some flaws, which they would not accept.

But wasnt it Ensidia that directly quoted EJ Theory-crafting to claim Yogg-0 was "Mathematically impossible??

[The Good Captain]

But men are allowed to use women's bathrooms..

wut that u say?!?11

I find EJ to be quite accurate, a grand margin of the time, personally. Perusing their threads helped me pull more from my DPS. I'm very pleased with the input they've provided for Ret'-Pal's.

[Shiira]

But wasnt it Ensidia that directly quoted EJ Theory-crafting to claim Yogg-0 was "Mathematically impossible??

One person on ej saying that doesn't mean that that's what everyone thought.

The general opinion was that it was possible, just very very difficult.

[Fargom]

One person on ej saying that doesn't mean that that's what everyone thought.

The general opinion was that it was possible, just very very difficult.

This point pretty much sums up the thread, EJ haters will always say "well I read this at EJ and its wrong." Little do they mention that said information probably was just posted by a random EJ member. Rarely, if ever is peer reviewed information at EJ wrong. And if it is, its corrected in the various OP's once proven.

[polluted]

... Your gemming shows that you know nothing about WoW... Also the fact that you can only do 3k dps with almost full 232 gear? You are bad.
Obviously an error on your part and not on the people who get paid to play and theorycraft.

WOW You'd be a great boss someday...LOL nothing like a little tact. Whether you were right or not you sounded like a giant douche bag. You're one of those fun type know it alls we just love playing with...man learn a shred of tact....

[ElAmigo]

Oh noes?! Banned from the EJ website resorts to /wrists?

I for one have never gone to that site for factual information, and couldnt give a shit to what they or their superiority complex is all about. They can count and do math, good for them. Just reading that post for banning Tun was remarkable. Im not an Ensidia fanboy, but telling one of? the feral druids in one of the top 5 best guilds in the world (hence this guy must be pretty fucking good) that he sucks is seriously rediculous.

Its like some golf instructor telling tiger woods he sucks at golf because he is saying that he can only drive it 300 yards, and doesnt get why if he gained 5 more pounds of muscle and changed his grips he could hit 400 yards according to some math i put on a piece of paper

Im using golf and tiger woods as an example of a well know person that has skill in his area of expertise.

I guess its some epeen stretch for some guy who probably wont ever be as good as the person he is telling sucks. Poor guy.

agreed

[Fargom]

agreed

Did you read the part where Tun was being a douche, and advocating that his own personal logic was somehow correct without any evidence? Yeah, sounds to me that Tun couldn't handle that he was wrong and wanted to keep posting, hence the ban.

"No guys, for real, I'm in XYZ guild so my own personal opinion is OBVIOUSLY better than the mathematical proof and theorycrafting of the entire EJ community."

Cry baby druid got what he deserved.

[jontaxe]

But wasnt it Ensidia that directly quoted EJ Theory-crafting to claim Yogg-0 was "Mathematically impossible??

I think the Yogg+0 is impossible made some assumptions about the p3 adds that were negated with different tactics.

Regardless, that doesn't matter. What point are you trying to make? Are you insinuating that because EJ's community was wrong about "X, Y, or Z" that somehow that means the whole site is wrong?

That irritates the bejesus out of me. It's one of the most common ways primitive screwheads argue. (IIRC it's ad hominem tu quoque. But don't quote me.)

"Well 30 years ago 'science' predicted global cooling, so global warming must be false."
"Well, 'scientists' can't prove how life started, so evolution must be false."
"Well EJ said Yogg+0 was impossible, so they must be wrong about everything."

[ElAmigo]

Did you read the part where Tun was being a douche, and advocating that his own personal logic was somehow correct without any evidence? Yeah, sounds to me that Tun couldn't handle that he was wrong and wanted to keep posting, hence the ban.

"No guys, for real, I'm in XYZ guild so my own personal opinion is OBVIOUSLY better than the mathematical proof and theorycrafting of the entire EJ community."

Cry baby druid got what he deserved.

ok even so this quote by bigjenk

The sad thing was he was right and it took them around another couple weeks to run thier number and see that they were incorrect all the while officers there had been telling him he was wrong despite the fact that he probably pulls more dps than any of them.

shows that tun apparently was right and even if he did sound stuck up the response to tun was no different.
and tbh i would rather believe tun than EJ and their simulators because he has the experience and all EJ has is the math.

[Shiira]

ok even so this quote by bigjenk
shows that tun apparently was right and even if he did sound stuck up the response to tun was no different.
and tbh i would rather believe tun than EJ and their simulators because he has the experience and all EJ has is the math.

You know that a lot of the serious theorycrafters on ej are also from high end raiding guilds right?

[Ruki]

EJ is a guideline. You shouldn't follow everything they say. EJ is a tool to show you which way you should be heading and where you should not be heading. YOU have to do work YOURSELF as well if you want maximum DPS results. Just because something they said is there, you have to conduct tests yourself with simulators, etc. Specs scale with gear, which the OP obviously does not have. If you wanna be a good player, don't rely on what others say.

@OP- If you actually took the time to READ, you would know the Obliterate is totally useless now. Scourge Strike beats Obliterate and you wouldn't have a problem with your diseases being consumed. When EJ posts something, they assume you are in a raid environment and gives results accordingly. Heroics and dummy tests don't cut it. If you really wanna test Unholy, do it inside a raid environment.

[Toogood]

Did you read the part where Tun was being a douche, and advocating that his own personal logic was somehow correct without any evidence? Yeah, sounds to me that Tun couldn't handle that he was wrong and wanted to keep posting, hence the ban.

"No guys, for real, I'm in XYZ guild so my own personal opinion is OBVIOUSLY better than the mathematical proof and theorycrafting of the entire EJ community."

Cry baby druid got what he deserved.

Are you part of the guild ''Elitist Jerks''?

Quoted below by Tun of Ensidia:

I wanted to make a separate blog about this next subject but I realised there wasn’t enough information to merit an entire blog of its own. It’s about the forum Elitist Jerks, as some of you probably know. I never liked the thing, I never really posted there because I don’t like theorycrafting and I think the people who praise the site are all idiots. Never the less, a couple of weeks ago I got tired of hearing from people saying that what I was doing was wrong because they read so on EJ. I decided to take up the fight with the EJ mathmagicians. After a couple of days of arguing in the most civil tone I’ve ever used on a forum in my life, this is what happened:


Dear Tunz0r,

You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks.

Reason: The Banhammer
-------
Your logic sucks. Fuck off.

Your perspective is fatally flawed, logically speaking. You are guilty of Appeal to Authoritah, by which I mean you assume your own "personal logic" is superior to the empirical study and use of carefully-derived formulae available in an accepted simulation. Despite massive evidence to the contrary, you assume your inability to attain the listed damage numbers is due to logical flaws in the spreadsheet, not the fact that you suck.

Well let me tell you something: you suck, and your personal logic sucks. We don't need you and your accusatory, superior tone here - that's what I'm for.
-------

This infraction is worth 10 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.


A 10-point infraction never expires. I was permanently banned from EJ after 3 days of posting in a Feral DPS thread. Serves me right for disagreeing with them. The funny thing is that they started testing what I was talking about after I got banned and it looks like I was right. Without any kind of theory behind it and just looking at what happened on a raid, I was apparently right.

I hate EJ. I hate everyone who reads EJ, and I hate everyone who posts on EJ. The forum sucks, the people there suck and the information you get from there is a pile of shit. Don’t ever use that forum.

Quote by Buzzkill:
As I said so many times before, majority of EJ theorycrafters are players that never killed anything significant in PvE before thousand nerfs and try to compensate their inability to perform by smartassing about how game should be played. Not only, that their work is next to meaningless, they act so high and mighty because they killed million of vacuum Patchwerks using basic knowledge of Excel, not having a slightest clue how real progress actually looks.

Enjoy your TC, I think will prefer info that actually matters, you know... one that comes from actually trying stuff.

Quoted by Eoy:
Yup EJ sucks no news there. Basing theorycrafting on fights with no movement is just stupid. Then again, there is no other better option to base it on, other than real recorded data from real fights - but I imagine that isn't nerdy enough.

I guess the big question here is, should you base your gear on theorycrafting in a stationary fight with no incoming damage, or should you base it on common sense and actually looking at one encounter at a time?

Theorycrafting serves it's purpose, but you have to understand what it's there for, and more importantly: what it's not there for.

Take the Haste calculations for Shadowpriests. Theorycrafting will always value haste higher than it is, because it's based on you standing still. Haste serves no purpose while you're moving - which you actually are in a big number of the fights there is.

Elitist jerks response in Tun's evidence:
"Sadly, since Tun got banned, he could no longer argue his point about validity of the final DPS numbers and the merits of FB versus not. As far as merits of FB go (which he didn't dispute necessarily), I think at his gear level, he may have been right, to a degree."

Wouldn't u agree, that Ensidia would have a better understanding than EJ?

It is safe to say when EJ are told sumthin rite, they reject it!

[Sidonis]

Most of the people who think EJ is somehow "wrong" could learn a lesson from the Ban that idiot druid from ensida got, allow me to quote the almighty bart

"Your perspective is fatally flawed, logically speaking. You are guilty of Appeal to Authoritah, by which I mean you assume your own "personal logic" is superior to the empirical study and use of carefully-derived formulae available in an accepted simulation. Despite massive evidence to the contrary, you assume your inability to attain the listed damage numbers is due to logical flaws in the spreadsheet, not the fact that you suck."

That right there sums up why using math and proper theorycrafting are always better than "well, lols I beat the other guy in my raid so my spec is gud" crap most people spew.


As for the accuracy of the information, its peer review, if something is "wrong" its because nobody has proven the alternatives to be right. When things change, we update our threads at EJ. Recently it was proven that 15/0/55 (+1) is superior to 3/13/55 for DW unholy. I listened to the arguments, and once the info was proven I updated the OP. Peer review is the key, you people who just want the answer now now now are the crap on the bottom of a good theorycrafter's boots.


That said, feel free to let me know about anything that is "wrong" with my DW thread. Hell, post and let me know, If you find errors I'll update the OP. This is what EJ is all about, collectively finding out the best way to play your character. http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-d...venge_offhand/

Instead of complaining that "EJ is wrong" how about you join the conversation and help. My guess is most of you EJ haters are just idiots who got banned because you can't use a search tool.

Ask around in the mage forums, see if anyone will talk to you about Arcane vs Fire in TBC. I'm not spewing hate, and I'm not banned from EJ. The fact is, the moderators there are as human as anyone else, and subject to the same flaws.