Enhancement Shaman VS Warrior/Rogue

[Clarkis2001]

Hey all! I'm looking for some help here. I have a geared Warlock and a pretty well geared Druid that I love to PvP with. However I didn't have a melee and so I leveled an Enhancement Shaman because I thought they were awesome (at least against Warlocks and Druids they can be a pain because of Grounding/Tremor Totems and Purge).

However, while I'm fine with a huge learning curve not only because of the new class but also the first melee character, I can not for the life of me beat melee! Primarily Warriors and Rogues. My strategy against a Rogue is to pop Shamanistic Rage after the attacks start, throw down Stoneclaw as soon as I'm not stunned and use Feral Spirit/my normal set of totems. But I still just always lose! Should I be using Cure Toxins or not? I feel I've tried spamming it but they just keep getting reapplied.

For Warriors I really don't know what to do. I hit them like a wet noodle and they just destroy me! MS makes my Maelstrom Procs very ineffective to use as heals and when I go Ghost Wolf to get away I get Charged/Intercepted, Hamstrung and Bladestormed. Even when I use my macro to pop on my Shield I just die so fast.

I still have a lot to learn and know that, but I can see myself getting better against most other classes. These two though, I just can't seem to learn anything about. Thanks for any help!!!

Here is my armory. Yes I have crap gear but even when fighting equally geared players I fall so fast. Thanks again!!! http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Zomgpwnage

[Xive]

Look, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but unless you heavily outgear the person, there's simply no way for you to beat any of those two classes.

[Clarkis2001]

Look, I'm really sorry to break it to you, but unless you heavily outgear the person, there's simply no way for you to beat any of those two classes.

Oh yuck. =(

Okay well that kind of blows but I guess every class/spec has it's counters. I can kill just about anyone on my Destro Warlock except Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests. The same for my Resto Druid in that really only two classes can kill me (Warriors and Hunters... just too hard to heal through).

At least I know I'm not being an extremely terrible player and learning how to beat some classes and not others lol. I also have trouble with Frost Mages and Paladins but am getting better.

[Clarkis2001]

While I'm here, and this is a little off topic, but should I spec into Reverberation or Elemental Fury or skip both? The lowered CD on Wind Shear seems nice BUT I'm not sure it's worth 5pts. The same goes for Elemental Fury since crits in PvP are becoming fewer and farther between.

[skyclops]

The only way to beat those two is with time -patience & a lot of luck
if you can get away quick enough you can wear them down
by slowing them down & kiting otherwise its a no go fraid

[Clarkis2001]

So that's the consensus? Warriors and Rogues are unbeatable?

[Proon]

Have you tried playing ridiculously defensive?

Not had a Shaman of my own, but that seems like the most viable option.

[Longview]

If the rogue opens on you, then you'll most likely lose.

If you open on him, try to kite him during evasion, and use your maelstrom procs for healing.

[damage rewards]

you can beat a warrior by playing the deadzone card.

kite him with frostshock and earthbind totem, let your wolves kill it, and let frostshock hurt him.
its the only way you will manage to beat a warrior, he has only fear to counter this, but you can get away fast again.
if he bladestorms use either ghostwolf to get away, or spirit wolf speed boost.

might be tricky, but its the only way you can beat a warrior.

unfortunatly i have no clue how you can beat a equal geared/skilled rogue. other then perhaps taking advantage of being able to equip a shield. use magma totem and lightning shield for him to take dmg while your being stunlocked.

[Clarkis2001]

Have you tried playing ridiculously defensive?

Not had a Shaman of my own, but that seems like the most viable option.

Well I have tried to play that way but the healing procs from Maelstrom Weapon just (a) don't come enough because of all the dodges of Warriors and Rogues plus (b) the MS effect kills me... literally. Plus even with my Shield equipped I take a lot of damage not to mention my dps drops tons.

If the rogue opens on you, then you'll most likely lose.

If you open on him, try to kite him during evasion, and use your maelstrom procs for healing.

I do try this too. I swap my Shield on and try to kite since I'll not likely hit a Rogue at all during evasion. It sucks that as soon as Evasion is done Cloak negates my slowing and other such effects. Or, actually, some Rogues use both at the same time essentially making me useless.

[Clarkis2001]

you can beat a warrior by playing the deadzone card.

kite him with frostshock and earthbind totem, let your wolves kill it, and let frostshock hurt him.
its the only way you will manage to beat a warrior, he has only fear to counter this, but you can get away fast again.
if he bladestorms use either ghostwolf to get away, or spirit wolf speed boost.

might be tricky, but its the only way you can beat a warrior.

unfortunatly i have no clue how you can beat a equal geared/skilled rogue. other then perhaps taking advantage of being able to equip a shield. use magma totem and lightning shield for him to take dmg while your being stunlocked.

Huh. This doesn't seem to work well for me but maybe with better gear it will. I find that the Earthbind pulses come too far between such that the Warrior can keep me slowed and in his range. Also my Feral Spirit CD doesn't seem to do much for me/to the Warrior. I will keep at it though and I appreciate your help!

Also I find that Ghostwolf doesn't run faster than Bladestorming Warriors even though we're supposed to be suffering far less from movement slowing effects. I though I read somewhere that while in Ghostwolf form you will never be moving slower than 100% but that doesn't ever seem to be true.

For Rogues I will try that. I had forgotten about Lightning Shield. I usually use Water Shield for the Mana but I suppose Lightning Shield could work like a Druid's Thorns or a Paladin's Retribution Aura.

[spiny]

Equip your shield. Wait until after stuns to use SR. If you have wolves ready, you have a decent chance at winning an encounter against an equal match. Also, you may be able to kite the warrior if he's bad (violates the "equal match" rule). But if wolves are on CD, you are a goner.

Sadly, MW doesnt really work all that well in PvP, and doesnt work at all when you're stunned. And interrupts will keep you from using MW at anything below 4 stacks.

Ive beaten many many warriors and rogues in the field of battle, but im sure if you looked at the details of those encounters, I grossly outgeared them and/or they were afk.

[Clarkis2001]

Equip your shield. Wait until after stuns to use SR. If you have wolves ready, you have a decent chance at winning an encounter against an equal match. Also, you may be able to kite the warrior if he's bad (violates the "equal match" rule). But if wolves are on CD, you are a goner.

Sadly, MW doesnt really work all that well in PvP, and doesnt work at all when you're stunned. And interrupts will keep you from using MW at anything below 4 stacks.

Ive beaten many many warriors and rogues in the field of battle, but im sure if you looked at the details of those encounters, I grossly outgeared them and/or they were afk.

Interesting, why do you wait until after the stunlock to use SR?

[Therm]

Enhance is very gear dependent imo, The way i kill Arms warriors is try to kite as much as you can, even then you win from luck, Frostshock nova/earthnind helps alot, start off with stoneclaw, then shammy rage, do your normal thing till he pops bladstorm, or you think hes about to use it, Cast wolves then Use the sprint to run away from the BS, try to time frostshock nova so that you land it the second BS ends, from there just kite and hope for the best.

Prot warriors are fun, stun spam till your dead. Best way iv been able to kill them, (this will sound funny), I use Daggers with ft/fb, I have a heroic Spell dagger from togc, and the Heartpierce from icc, It may sound funny, but the amount of spell damage your doing to them is great, and they cant block/doge/parry wf procs

Now rogues are alot of fun to fight, Less then a pain to warriors, but still a pain, best way for me is to pop shammy rage when stun, pop stoneclaw asap, then do your normal thing, I like to keep Searing totem out because if they vanish/sprint to get into stealth agian, the totem sometimes hits them as they stealth so they get knocked out of it. Pop wolves if need as soon as they are stun try to do as much damage as you can then sprint to kite them if needed , If can save trinket for blind.

Heres my armory if you wonder what gear lvl im at http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...+Hand&cn=Therm

[K4ge]

Good rogues will usually sap and destroy a totem or two and gouge on dr to get rid of totems.

[aetti morkna]

Therm had some real good points. I can give you my own personal way of dealing with those two classes, assuming wolves are down. If wolves are up, I pop them immediately. Oh, I should note, I don't duel much. I do run into 1 on 1 situations a lot in BGs though, where I use every possible advantage.

vs. Warrior-

I have more trouble with prot warriors than arms ones. With prot, you get stunned up the ass, get dodged and parried so no MW procs happen, and if you do happen to get one, their dispel removes it. I dont encounter them very often, so I don't know a lot of counters.

Against arms warriors, there's a few caveats. I always drop Stoneclaw at the start to get the upper hand, and so cooldown finishes before its over. First of all, most arms warriors I encounter are retarded, and don't hamstring before they lolstorm. If so, ghost wolf immediately and laugh at them. If they do string you, drop earthbind to remove it, and same, ghost wolf til its over. Due to them being stuck spinning for 8 seconds, you can use this as a good time to hit 2 or 3 Lesser Healing Waves. After that, I just keep on the offensive, and dart around the warrior a lot to make them have to try to stay facing me. Keep an eye out for spell reflects, those can harm you. Sprinkle in attempts to get away from the warrior by dropping earthbind and trying to get to a distance where MS wears off and you can instantly drop a 5/5 Healing Wave. Hitting the warrior with a Frozen Power rooting Frost Shock can prevent an instant intercept. Don't forget to use SR at a point where you're taking a lot of damage. Also worth nothing is that I never switch to a shield when fighting a warrior.

vs. Rogue-
Always fun, rogue.. When cheap shot, I always instantly use SR. I have a tendency to try to escape after CS if the rogue waits to Kidney. I instantly earthbind, ghost wolf away. If you get lucky and get away somewhat, drop cleansing and spam Cure Toxins to get rid of wounding, and then maybe try to get a LHW in. Also, Stoneclaw. If you don't get away, you can take a chance on trinketing the KS, but that leaves you open to blind. Once the stunlock is over, I always kite a little bit, cure toxins and try to reset the fight. Make sure you toss a shock on the rogue to prevent him from losing combat. Flame works best, sometimes even frost shock will get him to waste Cloak. Kite during evasion, keep earthbind down. I'll sometimes use a 3/5 or 4/5 MW to hex, then heal myself up during the duration. Rogues are very luck based. If you get a few windfury procs, you'll tear through the rogue rather quickly, actually.

tl;dr version: the key to beating both of these classes is to be very defensive. Earthbind removes your snares and snares your opponent, allowing you to ghost wolf to safety. I use this *EVERY TIME* I fight a melee opponent.

[Muffinator]

Dead zone on a warrior is crucial. By dead zone, the range at which they can't charge you, but can't melee you either. More than 5 yards but less than 8 will keep you from charge, and if you seem him back up just follow him in 5-8. As for intercept, it's like 5yd minimum, so you can't really avoid that.

I counter these two classes by being very offensive on my hunter, forcing CD's to survive then jumping out to 40 yards and singing as they die.

EDIT: on another note, keep magma down so the rogue can't stay vanished for long or he has to use cloak. If you hear the sort of "FWOooooossh" of them becoming visible while still stealthed, nova and spam frost shock/GW to get range. Cleansing totem is win, and when they evasion FS LvB them or kite out to frost nova range and spam CL/LB at them. If they pop cloak then, great, you've forced CD's to survive.

Save trinket for blind, as with any class against rogue, SR during kidney if you feel it necessary, wolf speed kite around fire totem with slow and dots up.

It's a defensive game for you against those two, but it is possible.

[Saverem]

As someone who has both a Shaman and Warrior in at least Furious/relentless gear I can tell you, you won't be able to beat a skilled Warrior with similar gear. Sorry...


Your only chance will be with your wolves, but even then I usually just fear them off and finish the Shaman pretty quickly.

ELEMENTAL Shamans on the other hand are pretty hard for me as a Warrior to take down. I stand a chance when I have my trinket up to get past that first annoying totem root. But they win more often then not.

[Rayzan]

To beat a warrior you must play like a rogue. Don't let him hit you. Like many have said, you must kite him. Which is odd being a melee class but it's about the only way. Use magic dmg to you advantage.

Coming from a rogue, it'll be hard to kill us as long as we have half a brain. We are the frost Mage of your class. While rogues CAN beat frost mages, it takes a lot of preparation, skill, and a ton of luck.

IMO, just stay away from those classes

[Merlinsback]

Rogues don'tgive me any problems... I use the same strat as you so maybe it's just a gear issue... and against warriors, it's a bit tougher but they are still beatable... I'll prolly get flamed for this, but I use double wf for the extra damage + extra maelstrom... and if ur not at 100% hp then use it for a heal... ever little bit helps... throw down tremor before you pop wolves in case he fears them (and if hes good he will)... and I'm gonna go against the general population and say stay on him... keep him near your magma totem ftw. Thing you have to watch is when he switches to defensive stance and starts using revenge!

And yes, poison cleansing is a must for rogues...

My shamans name is Willshat on Mug'thol... feel free to look him up