[OLD] Retribution Cataclysm Discussion

[Ronark]

/sigh You don't get it, do you?

You shoulda made the source the direct link to your post ^^

[Talen]

This just feels silly. Blizzard adding a non-cooldown Crusader Strike?

I'm not sure why this is silly.

When you look back at the past two years, you can see some indication of what Blizzard feels is wrong with Paladins.
Paladins also have a well know list fo issues, some more importnat and detrimental than others.
And we can see some hints of what may be in the other previews.

So...Blizzard wanted to introduce a rampup time and so Paladins got the current SoV. Good in someways...but a really clunky mechanic.
Paladins have an awful levelling experience.
Paladins need AoE heals, an interrupt, a gap closer.
Blizzard thinks poisons do too much damage for a passive system.
Protadins have too easy a time AoE tanking
Blizzard thinks an interrupt is part of the melee role

So...

Paladins will get a low level attack. If we take the tease from Zarhym, it'll be a core mechanic. No reason this can't be spammable. Spammable means Paladins would always have something to press. Spammable also means it could solve the ramp up problem. And solve the levelling issue.

Paladins will get an AoE heal. An interrupt is likely. A gap closer also very plausible.

Seals are likely to be nerfed or removed. Maybe only the damage Seals will go.

Consecration will get a longer CD.

And so on.

You can make guesses based on what the class needs. And a spammable attack is probably a good one.

EJL

[Applegarth]

I would like to see Retribution moved to a more support the damage based class then just a dps class in general. I know we have +3% damage and haste and crit, and the mana regen. But it just seems like those are more or less taken for granted nowadays and we just focus on pure dps and trying to out dps a rouge persay. I have some idea that might seem stupid to alot of people. But I think a good portion of people would much rather enjoy it and more and more ret paladins would be taken to more and more raids, and our dps wouldnt suffer at all. Nor would we lose gear cause these abilites would be affected by the gear we have.

Well I think the only way we would be able to do this is if we got or own bar of energy we would have to fill up by doing damage. We would still need mana to do our normal attacks but we would need this new resource to use these new spells for the most part. Lets just call it Crusaders Glory.

So you have to do damage to fill your CG bar up.

The new abilites would enhance your comrades dps up and other things, for a short time. In short as well with normal buffs, you buff everyone else up including yourself even further in combat. Now of course there would have to be some sort of drawback with this. Like lets say no self heals.

Inspiratonal Slash.
25 CG 30 second CD
lasts lets say 10-15 seconds
Your allies witness you giving a tremoundous blow to the enemry boulstering them causing an increase of damage by 5% for 10-15 seconds.

Lions Blow.(affect.)
50 CG 1 min. CD
lasts 20 seconds.
Tears open a wound in the enemy and marks the enemy with light, damaging the enemy over time for 20 second( determined on attackpower) in an addition your comrades see the vicious wound and howl with hope and attack with fervour doing 10-15% more damage for 6-10 seconds. (the bleed affect itself will last for 20 and can be kept up by Crusader Strike only, in other words, its another DoT for us that does holy damage and not physical. but the increase in damage by 10% for 10 seconds can only be done every other minute. But once you open the dot it wont fade as long as you stay on the target. It will help us maintain damage quicker if we have to change then change back. We can automatically start up a dot while we apply SoV.)

Ocean of Peace
35 CG 1 min CD
Spreads an fine holy like mist over a certain area, healing for a small amount, and while the allies feel their strength returning their haste quickens by 5% for 10 seconds.



Thats its really, thats all I can think about for now. I think it would be a pretty nifty idea for ret paladins. Go back to the support class we once were. I just remember back when I was 40 and running Zf and knowing how fun it was running around doing damage, then drop out of damage heal for a quick second, pick damage back up and just have fun. Be support.

I mean I am pretty sure my idea has it fair share of flaws I didnt think of, but that thought just hit me a few minutes ago.

So what do you guys think about it?

[Talen]

So what do you guys think about it?

That the concept simply does not work.

Especially now. Bring the plauyer not the class emans no one class has any claim to special or unique buffs. Or shouldn't. I expect, like heroism, Cat will spread the few unique tools around a bit.

But it means that DPS classes will be measured on their DPS. Rets won't bring any tool unique to them. So, it'll be a case of DPS from class A or a Ret doing markedly less DPS as support.

Arguably, if a DPS has to back off to support the group anyway, that emans somethign bad is happening. A raid should have brought along players who specialise in support/healing. A Ret doing their job is not doing his. I realsie that shouldn't stop a good ret stepping in and throwing off a heal when necessary....but with a group whose healers and support team are doing that, the Ret is doing a disservice to the raid by filling support.
EJL

[Applegarth]

That the concept simply does not work.

Especially now. Bring the plauyer not the class emans no one class has any claim to special or unique buffs. Or shouldn't. I expect, like heroism, Cat will spread the few unique tools around a bit.

But it means that DPS classes will be measured on their DPS. Rets won't bring any tool unique to them. So, it'll be a case of DPS from class A or a Ret doing markedly less DPS as support.

Arguably, if a DPS has to back off to support the group anyway, that emans somethign bad is happening. A raid should have brought along players who specialise in support/healing. A Ret doing their job is not doing his. I realsie that shouldn't stop a good ret stepping in and throwing off a heal when necessary....but with a group whose healers and support team are doing that, the Ret is doing a disservice to the raid by filling support.
EJL

No. Dont think of it as it is now. Of course now that system wont work. But take a step back and then look at it, without applying how rets work now.

To me it fufills what a ret paladin is. A knight. What do you knights do? They dont just do grunt soldier work and kill, they lead, raise morale, bolster the resolve. They are as much of a support to the men as a weapon.

This whole, bring the player not the class bullshit needs to stop imo. Its just simply dumb. I will prolly wake up tommorow and reread that idea and be like what the fuck was I thinking. But I have pain meds and no sleep, so yay.

I would like to see though that paladin and everyother class are brought back to their orginal structure at least. I would much love be a support class that does melee attacks.

[geomag]

In cataclysm id love to see ret get a filler spell that isn't on a cd that we weave in between cooldowns, like mind flay for shadow priest's.

[Talen]

I would like to see though that paladin and everyother class are brought back to their orginal structure at least. I would much love be a support class that does melee attacks.

A melee class that does little damage, has few attacks, takes an absolute age to kill anything, yet doesn't have the same survivability as other classes because in the game, DPS trumps all, and is essentially told to "Stay back and heal you n00b"

There is a reason many people welcomed the changes.

EJL

[Kheirn]

You can make guesses based on what the class needs. And a spammable attack is probably a good one.

Following what Blizzard have previously stated when it comes to changes, they want to take away the spamming and add more decision to what you're doing. Adding a pure-spam attack that will put us on GC 100% of the time is very contra-productive. Whatever you do besides spamming your DPS abilities will lower your DPS, probably quite much.

I know that there are severe changes needed to the Ret tree, but adding a non-CD strike is exactly what we don't need.

[DaGhostDS]

I think ronark....or one of the moderators...albeit paladin or a general forum moderators needs to do some investigation and take some action against this. At a time where so much info is being released and where its already been stated that paladin info will not be released until april 16th, this is in no way a funny joke. Especially when such a gap for a date between the rest of the classes is doing nothing but creating a bunch of anxious paladin players. I'm fond of jokes and pranks but there's a time and a place. This isn't one of them.

lol..
check this..

Onofficial Class Preview

oh my! it wasnt big enough?

[Vasti]

lol..
check this..oh my! it wasnt big enough?

Finaly someone with brains...seriously I thought ppl here actually ahd brains...but I should have known...these are the paladin forums...with paladisn being THE msot played class.. Im bound to run in alot of idiots.

Take a look at these guys:

I don't believe a single thing of this.

by Kaoskadosk

I agree. Now i don't know all the "blizzard staff posters" on the wow website, but vasti doesn't sound like a familiar one. Ghostcrawler, naethara, zarym, eyonyx(misspell?), bornakk and the one that just left are the only ones i ever saw post. Not to mention all the typos. Onoffical? It's unofficial...that's a pretty bad misspell...especially for a blizzard staff poster. The biggest thing that calls the bluff is the "source" link. I'm almost DAMN certain when you clicksies it, it takes you to the blue post tracker. And further even towards where it was actually posted. It instead takes you right back to the mmo-champion home site. Correct me if i'm wrong. But i agree.

by raziel083

Don't we have a MMO-C poster by the name of Vasti....?
Why does that source link take us to MMO-C....?

By Ronark....Ronark...seriously?
I mean I posted it AS myself (user Vasti...you can see I have alot of other psots...you can look at my previous posts and conclude that I am just a mmo-champion poster not a blizzard employee) Where else should that source link take you when it says right at the top in BIG BOLD letters ONOFFICIAL!!!!

Not for nothing...but this is a pretty extensive joke to play. How much work would it take to replicate a template like this? And y in the hell would even a prankster go through such trouble. This is pretty vexxing..and low imo. Are we that much of a hated class?!?

I did it because I like paladins as a class...and wanted to sahre my ideas in a unique way, rather then the useual standard post....and its not that hard to replicate...jsut quote one of the other class preview posts and change the text (I quoted the mage class preview post and changed the names, source, (poster to myself) and the abilities, amsteries ettc....easy as cake!)

Somebody made a suggestion how the ret changes should look like and I thought it was real LETS RAGE ROOAAAR.

Thank you, you return the hope ,that their are sane ppl on these forums, to me.

In all seriousness. There's nothing to suggest this as a "suggestion". Too much effort was put into this. In all non-seriousness, i say we all sit by a fire and sing koombiya.

Nothing? The big bold letters stating: ONOFFICIAL and the fact that the mmo-champion poster who posted this is has the same name the alleged Blizzard Poster has, and the fact that when u click my name u can see I have made alot of other "suggestion" posts for paladins.... omg are you ppl that lazy that u cant do the simplest or research..... OH NOESSS the sourdce button takes me back to MMO-C...how will I ever find out if this is real or not >.> OMG

Hand of Justice = 8s invulnerable or instantkill if somebody gets healed.

How is it an isntantkill or invulnerable? It clearly stats up to a maximum of 100% base health.....you know as in health WITHOUTH the added stamina...sure it can still be alot.... But numbers can be tweaked....30-60% would perhaps be more fair And even if it remained at 100% perhaps the person jsut shouldnt get heals for 8 seconds? In cata health pools will be increased, so you wont get burst down isntantly...likely that u can still survive witouth receiving heals for 8sec.....



The first line stated ONOFFICIAL...are you ppl that hypnotized by the blue colour? Seriously...my "effort" is wasted on you


ps. Altough the RAGE comments were fun to read......its always funny to see ppl act idiotic

[Ryme]

What Vasti just said...


Seriously guys, that was a pretty huge failure right there.

[Kheirn]

What Vasti just said...


Seriously guys, that was a pretty huge failure right there.

There are plenty of threads for suggestions and ideas. "Faking" a Blizzard post is not constructive nor fun, some people do fall for stuff like this, some people are naïvé, Vasti also made it "look" like he/she thought it was official, and yes, people actually can misspell Unofficial.

Maybe you think everyone is as clever as you, but that's not reality. Not everyone can tell real changes from fake changes.

My original post was made after swiftly skimming through the text, not bothering to check poster/source, because the changes themselves were too unlike Blizzard to even be real.

See the whole picture before poking at peoples faces.

[Madness20]

@Vasti
At first, i would like to know what Onofficial means. Would u be meaning "Unofficial"?
Second place if that's "Unofficial" i would suppose you got some kind of "Unofficial" blizz source, or you really don't know the definition of "Unofficial"? An "Unofficial" statement is just a "preview" from the official holders that haven't been officialy stated by them to public.
Is that blue post you created really an "Unofficial" Paladin preview that you got from a real source or is just a compilation of ur likes of many "whishes" and suggestions paladin have given latelly, and your kind of messing up with us giving a " Unofficial blue post" with lies, spamming it in at least 3 or more different threads that are not exactly made for "suggestions" and "ideas"?
Btw, anyway your attitude isn't giving u any point. What kind of moral have you to say to other ppl to learn to read when u, urself, do not know how to write? An maybe, the definition of "Unofficial"? l2write

@topic
Really LF Official blizz preview xD. Why the hell so much time to report the preview in relation with the other classes?
Is paladin really going to change much again?

[Vasti]

@Vasti
At first, i would like to know what Onofficial means. Would u be meaning "Unofficial"?
Second place if that's "Unofficial" i would suppose you got some kind of "Unofficial" blizz source, or you really don't know the definition of "Unofficial"? An "Unofficial" statement is just a "preview" from the official holders that haven't been officialy stated by them to public.
Is that blue post you created really an "Unofficial" Paladin preview that you got from a real source or is just a compilation of ur likes of many "whishes" and suggestions paladin have given latelly, and your kind of messing up with us giving a " Unofficial blue post" with lies, spamming it in at least 3 or more different threads that are not exactly made for "suggestions" and "ideas"?

@topic
Really LF Official blizz preview xD. Why the hell so much time to report the preview in relation with the other classes?
Is paladin really going to change much again?

I think I can answer all your questions with this one phrase:

English is not my first language

Anyone believing those to be real should really blame themselves...there were more then enough ways to know/deduce that it was not real. Imagine if I actually wanted to trick ppl into believing those were real....I would mind my spelling, dont go overboard on the changes.....have the source link to a non-existing official-wow-forums (so that it would result in an real looking error) I wouldnt use my own name as the Blizzard poster.
Be glad that at least you know that things like these could happen.....rahter then go into RAGE mode (okay not evryone went into rage mode), but still........ be more sceptic, more of a critic when posts like these go online...

Don't go out believing everything you read in blue letters with a black background so to say.

[Talen]

Following what Blizzard have previously stated when it comes to changes, they want to take away the spamming and add more decision to what you're doing. Adding a pure-spam attack that will put us on GC 100% of the time is very contra-productive. Whatever you do besides spamming your DPS abilities will lower your DPS, probably quite much.

Mindless spamming. But a no-CD spammable Strike or attack? That I cans ee.

EJL

[Adamson]

trying to find a picture of the sky falling....

[Nurvus]

Stuff I think they can/should do is give us a mechanical power that doesn't translate 1/1 between PvP and PvE.

Example would be something tied to our lack of mobility, wich would allow for great power in PvE and required teamwork for PvP.

First I think Consecration should have its cooldown lower than duration, like 6 sec cd, 8 sec duration - but removing your previous Consecration when cast.
Secondly, I think it might be off the GCD.
Now let's imagine any combination of the folloing talents:
1) - (Ret) Cause every second spent standing (without moving) inside your Consecration effect radius to grant you a ~10% speed increase for 6~8 sec that stacks 3 times, and does "not" stack with other speed increasing effects.
2) - (Prot) Damaging direct attack/spell against you have a X% chance to reduce the cast time of your next Exorcism, FoL or Holy Light by 0.5 and stacks 5 times.
3) - (Ret) Remove SoC "splash" and make it a proper (yet distinct) DPS seal by, for example, making its Judgement cause the next 2 attacks to proc the Seal effects twice each.
4) - (Ret) Give all your damaging Seal effects splash through a talent when attacking inside your Consecration effect radius.
5) - Instead of (or together with) 1) cause your Consecration to Daze enemies when they take any action inside it - beside moving.
6) - Talent refunding X% base mana cost of abilities/spells used inside your Consecration.

This causes Consecration to be a tool and a threat in PvP, but not OP - more than just a "lol you wasted your mana" kind of thing.
It'd be a tool that is attractive when you are unable to move well or when you are able to stop or slow your opponent - again this implies Teamwork.

Being off the GCD would allow it to be something you can use when you manage to catch your opponent and if you can't catch your opponent, perhaps because you get snared or slowed, Consecration would empower your ability to move and help open a window for attack every now and then.

Now don't forget what we need are tools to create windows of opportunity, not full time melee range, because that would be unfair - Other classes are meant to be able to create windows of opportunity on us if they play well or we play lousy.

Away from Consecration-based ideas, we know MS wich reduces healing effect, Improved Overpower wich reduces the caster's spellpower, Necrotic Strike wich absorbs an amount of healing on the target - How about Paladins get something that hurts the caster for casting, attacker for attacking, kiter for kiting, rather than preventing them from doing it.
Vow of Peace - Melee/ranged attacks hurt the attacker by a Holy amount linked to the attack speed involved.
Vow of Silence - Spells hurt the caster by a Holy amount linked to the spell cast time.
Vow of Confinement- Moving hurt the target by a Holy amount that stacks every second.

Then I think we need another strike, but above all we need abilities that are more than things to keep on cooldown.
We need connections between abilities, ways to change their priority during combat through procs and conditions.
- Getting an ability that does physical damage, but converts to Holy damage under certain conditions and/or increases holy damage taken from you by the target by X% for 3 sec.

Very incomplete - Brainstorm'ish - Tree Idea http://www.war-tools.com/t67902.html

[Vasti]

Mindless spamming. But a no-CD spammable Strike or attack? That I cans ee.

EJL

Id like for CS to be our lowest damaging ability and have no CD.
You would spam it when other abilities are on CD..or when you need to burn mana quickly (could go paired with a mastery that does 10% extra damage when ur mana is below 80%)

Then you would priotitze every spell above CS, but still have soemthing to push when the others are on CD, rather then wait for auto-attack to hit.

To prevent spamming CS TOO much, there could even be a ramp up mana cost (so the first CS will cost normal amount of mana, the 2nd in a row will cost 10% more etc....as soon as u use another damaging spell the cost resets to the normal value)

[Grimbold]

Specc Revamp. Change the way it works completly.

[Ronark]

I knew, Vasti. Hence why I said post *your* ideas in the idea sticky. That other post was the 'There is something fishy afoot!' post so others could put 2 and 2 together lol