Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Karnadas]

10 and 25 in the same lockout dropping the same gear? What. The. Fuck.

The things I like about them is that they do drop different items, and if I have more free time and wish to spend it raiding, I can work on one character, but in this situation, I wouldn't be able to. It's nice to raid in 25man, get a whole bunch of experience with the people in there, and the fulfilling feeling of killing a 25man boss, but then we go into our 10mans to help get a few more pieces here and there and 10 of us get to have fun and relax on a more comfortable setting.

Oh well, maybe that's just me. Silly, silly change, though. At least formerly I could do 25mans with my guild and help out another friend's 10man if my group wasn't running that week. Urg.

[Dragonfiregum1]

25 man raiding is dead, when your guild breaks up, why find another 25 that prolly has 25 and your benched, way easier to just hop into a 10man.

[Themessiah]

Oh and just on the off chance someone actually reads this far back, imagine the following.

A 10 man boss kill drops 2 pieces of loot.

A 25 man boss kill drops 100 pieces of loot.

Which is more effecient?



Additionally, a 10 man boss kill requires about 5 times the skill the current ICC 25 man heroic, where as the 25 mans require half of the 10 man normal. You may say, but it states that they will be balanced in difficulty - I would say they are when you account for just how hard so many people think organising 25 man raiding is. Perhaps the raid difficulty wont just be based on the boss fights themselves, but on the overall raiding process.

[Deleted]

Pretty fucking terrible system, hope theres some decent mmo's out there for once by then.

[Thundercougr]

For crying out loud. No1 needs gold - only lazy one doesnt have 50k+ (and why da hell do u need so much anyway?). Nor about emblems - after about the month u will not need 'em at all - they will just stack up in currency tab like a trash. Same with epix - gearing speed doesnt matter if they will implement gating system.

So.... can u come with advantages one more time plese?

I wasn't implying that the gold was an advantage. Well, I suppose I was, in hindsight. I was simply quoting what Blizzard said, however. Contrary to what you might think, some people DO need gold. Not everyone sits around doing dailies or playing the AH. I'm sitting at ~2k gold after buying Epic flying for my main and a couple alts. I don't "need" gold, and it's not one of the reasons I raid. However, the gold income from raiding IS welcome, however, as it somewhat offsets the cost of raiding by paying for repairs/gems/enchants. It provides income where otherwise I would have none. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

You're also wrong about Emblems. Blizzard already said they do not like the current Emblem system and the way of obtaining gear. So, I would be one to believe that you cannot get gear from Emblems in Cata anymore, or the rate at which you gain emblems will be drastically toned down in order to stop you from getting gear to raid the current tier within ~2 days of chaining heroics.

[Daedalon]

fail,as i already mentioned the REAL reason is that Blizzard want to force people to run alts and re-explore Azeroth( yeah they spent a LOT of time and money in it,though),and dont forget that same items in 10 and 25 man instances mean less work for game designer team,or better said less money input in game design.Diablo 3 and SC 2 story episodes have to be designed simultaneously,and i bet no one will hire extra designers for this

I can see where you are coming from. Having the same gear is also a benefit in many ways cause it can actually give a REAL balanced raiding content based on gear. The current system isn't. There are other ways to acomplish fair drop vs difficlulty lvls based on every fight. Best one ofc would be to limit you not to go into 10 mans if you have 25 man gear.

Basicly the current WOTLK raiding system is pretty much like you would put some 2200sh + Arena teams up against the 1200sh ones and still give the best rewards to the 2200sh for winning those fights - even tho all know they are benefitting 90% based on gear.

[PetersenII]

1. the change will destroy 25 mans unless they drop at least 6 items and 3 or 4 badges per 25 man boss. Given that a 10 man boss drops 2 items. 1 drop per every 5 peeps with one extra for incentive. (I know the faq says this is undetermined but for incentives to hold this needs to be the ratio)

I never really understood why people feel there needs to be incentive beyond just doing a raid with 25 people. If you don't have 24 other people you like and enjoy playing with, why would you want to be given incentive to do something you don't actually enjoy? A game's purpose it enjoyment, shouldn't that be the incentive, rather than loot? /boggle

[ojnik]

Think of 10man and 25man as arena ladders.... like 3v3 and 5v5.
Play the one you can for same rewards.

i think this is probably the best analogy of the blizz change..

[Deleted]

The world just ran out of tissues..

[rkma]

I never really understood why people feel there needs to be incentive beyond just doing a raid with 25 people. If you don't have 24 other people you like and enjoy playing with, why would you want to be given incentive to do something you don't actually enjoy? A game's purpose it enjoyment, shouldn't that be the incentive, rather than loot? /boggle

Then why drop gear at all? Just mail it to people.

After all, it's just about the fun of playing with other people.

[Ollakka]

Is it just me or are the ppl that used 25 man gear to go 10 heroic - crying the loudest here ?

Rewards should be based on difficulty..

How on earth can you claim that running 10 mans in 25 man gear - getting the same lvl items as those that are doing it on only 10 man is fair rewarding system ?

Seriously guys... 10 mans should not even have been an option for ppl in 25 man raiding gear in the first place !

Wisdom.

[Gummywyrms]

To all those who are in 10 man guilds and think that this is the best thing ever, take a look at wowprogress.com and you will see that in both 10 and 25 man progression, the top guilds for 25 man are the same as the top guilds in the 10 man. Meaning the "skill" of which your guild has is nonexistant. And don't hide behind the gear factor, because they have downed both 10 and 25 heroic modes while your mindset was strictly on 10 man giving you more time to figure your crap out. In addition to this, the only gear that 10 man guilds are not exposed to is 277 gear, seeing as how ya'll can obtain gear from badge vendors and heroic 10 mans. Many have not obtained Herald of the Titan, and that is because a lack of skill.
The better guilds in the world always have and always will be the ones exposed to 25 man raiding content, and that is simply because they are more raid aware, and are die hard raiders.

[Rootofalleli]

Then why drop gear at all? Just mail it to people.

After all, it's just about the fun of playing with other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Magadansky]

Seems alright except one thing:

Overall, our goal is that you make the decision between whether to raid with 10 players or 25 players based on what you find fun and not because of the reward structure.

People don't raid 25 for the fun, they raid it for the reward structure and because progression standard is set around it. Removing it will indeed deal a huge hit to the 25 man aspect of the game (as everyone pointed out, it's pretty obvious).

Will still play and will still aim to raid at the highest level though, whatever it becomes.

[Hysteriia]

Additionally, a 10 man boss kill requires about 5 times the skill the current ICC 25 man heroic, where as the 25 mans require half of the 10 man normal.

Says the kid who doesn't lead raids, doesn't set up a 25 Lich King kill with at least 5 idiots in the raid. 25man bosses have more health, require more damage, and throw out bigger numbers with different debuffs from 10man. Fighting Lich King 25 is easier, now, only because of the 10% buff with more dps,healers,and tanks. Positioning of the raid is way harder also.

[talrob]

What the fuck is this combat log?

Combat log 26 April 2010 Ulduar 25

[22:50] Algalon gains well fed

[Daedalon]

Then why drop gear at all? Just mail it to people.

After all, it's just about the fun of playing with other people.

The fun part is about progressing your character- with other ppl. Progression should be based on difficulty. In its current form its not - where 25 man geared ppl can go into 10 mans fight that are tuned for ppl in 10 man gear. Now ppl will have option of progression based on if they want to play with 10 man raids - or 25 man raids. And you will get gear based on the diffuculty of the fights... not based on how much overgeared you are for the bosses.

There will be extra NUMBER of items that will reward those going for 25 man content. The fights themselfs will have simulare difficulty level so its only fair to expect same lvl items dropping.

[dephon]

so many stupid posts here

we've seen blizzard change the instance system plenty of times. They are an experienced company, if this doesnt work they can just change it again. Best not make predictions of how it will turn out over a preview.

[rkma]

It is not just difficult, but impossible to balance 10 and 25 man raids.

- If 10 and 25 man are balanced for gameplay difficulty, then 10 is easier because of logistics.

- If you offset gameplay difficulty to compensate for logistics, then gameplay in 25 is technically easier.

There is no way around it. No matter what, 1 + 1 = 2.

[Slavemaker]

I like it, then again I have multiple max level characters during every expansion and this means that I can do multiple things per week such as all of the raids that give loot on all my characters and I won't be required to do the 25 man version of the instance.

It is a good change overall, should make things more interesting.