Cataclysm Badge and PvP Point Changes Update

[Schwiing]

Seems like a great idea. T2 for the hardcore 2000+ arena players, and T1/gear for the rest of us.

Keep it up Blizz! Now just work on getting some world pvp encouraged so I can enjoy the hardwork you put into the world that I never see after 79

[Terracresta]

Depending on how easy or hard the cata raid content will be and on how they will handle pvp points it can be balanced or unbalanced in favor of pve or pvp. We'll need to wait and see whos faster with getting their gear at compareable skilllevel. Of cause pve can suck big time if you just have bad dropluck...

[Ikkatsu]

The difference being that when you do PvE hardmode, you fight PvE hardmode bosses every time. The same is not true of PvP.

People with top-end, rated PvP gear will occasionally be pitted against people with the lower-end, unrated PvE gear, and it confers an inherent advantage. This advantage becomes more pronounced at the advent of a new season. With everyone's rating wiped and matches arranged essentially at random, people with the full set of rated gear from the previous season will plow through everyone else and skyrocket right back up to their previous rating. It's the equivalent of doing regular PvE encounters in hardmode gear.

The end result is that the poor stay poor and the rich get richer. Those without the rated gear must continually break their fangs against the armor of those with the rated, grinding losses until they can acquire the rated themselves and compete on equal footing where class, team composition, and player skill are the only things that matter, which is what PvP is supposed to be about anyways.

It's a vicious cycle, and a completely pointless one at that. The only thing their "change" is doing is making it easier to be one season behind.

Actually, No.

They said the points you gained from previous season will be converted to lower end points. Allowing people to purchase the weapons with the lower end points and no longer with a requirement.

That means the season will start fresh AS LONG as they have enough points.

I think you need to read the original announcement again on how the points work.

[Sormer]

They are going back to TBC Arena.

It won't be as ridiculous as WoTLK.

Any advantage is still an advantage. Anyone who has immersed themselves in the world of competitive, high-end PvP knows that you scrap for every last single stat point of an advantage that you can get.

If someone was able to get to 2200 (example) for the rating required for the weapon... then they have already shown they have the skill and therefore deserve the weapoin.

If someone has the skill to get to 2200 (for example) on, let's assume, a completely level playing field gear-wise, then what exactly is the point of giving them an even more powerful weapon once they get there? What does that prove? What does it accomplish in the spirit of competition?

[Ikkatsu]

If someone has the skill to get to 2200 (for example) on, let's assume, a completely level playing field gear-wise, then what exactly is the point of giving them an even more powerful weapon once they get there? What does that prove? What does it accomplish in the spirit of competition?

You could say the same about any sort of gear for Arena.

How about they give you all rags and basic weapons that you HAVE to use if playing arena, that cannot be upgraded in any way?

Looking like you are a Roman Slave Gladiator?

Would that make you happy?

I doubt it.

[Yiska]

Any advantage is still an advantage. Anyone who has immersed themselves in the world of competitive, high-end PvP knows that you scrap for every last single stat point of an advantage that you can get.

If someone has the skill to get to 2200 (for example) on, let's assume, a completely level playing field gear-wise, then what exactly is the point of giving them an even more powerful weapon once they get there? What does that prove? What does it accomplish in the spirit of competition?

Gear is important no doubt, but not to the extend you are making it out to be. We are talking about weapons only and that's really not a big deal. PvE gear in PvP is, not the difference in PvP weapons.

This is still an MMO after all and live ladder is not supposed to be a leveled playing field. E-sports happens only on those ATR realms

[Buzzo]

This is another example of Blizzard having HUGE! oversight issues over their own game.

Day one:

Blizz: We remove rating for pvp items, because with rated bg ratings would be arbitrary and we didn't like how people felt they couldn't advance in PVP because of the ratings blocking them.

Casuals: Hooray!! Finally on equal grounds with those elitist arena heroes.

Elitist: QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ My e-peen is shrinking QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ

Day two:

Blizz: Because we cave in to massive QQ heroic T2 PVP weapons will now need rating.

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So if the elitist QQ some more by day 3 or 4 things will be exactly as in WOTLK.

And Blizz says they don't cave in to QQ, lol less than 24 hours blizz!!! Less than 24 hours and you allready cave in to QQ.

qft xD

[Deepone]

I think thats fair.

Allow the dedicated PvP'rs to have top end Pvp Weapons

Maybe... it will depend on how much of an edge the weapons represent, and for some classes, this will have far more impact than others.

The original problem with the way it works now, as stated by Blizzard, was that people who come in to the season late, find a better comp or otherwise step up their game, can't catch up because they're facing people in radically better gear at the top.

This will only solve the problem if the delta in win/loss ratio due to upgrading from T1 to T2 is somewhere around 1 standard deviation in win/loss ratio. That is, if we can reasonably assume that a well (but not perfectly) played team with T1 weaps can beat a not as well (but not poorly) played team with T2 weaps, then this system will not prevent people with T1 stepping up to T2, though it will present a "sound barrier" that they have to cross to get them.

When I played arena for a short time in 2s, my partner and I out-played just about everyone until we hit 13-1400. That was where we ran into the folks in Furious gear, and though we were blowing our cooldowns like clockwork and countering our opponents at every turn we could, the combination of an OK, but not great comp and the massive gearing plateau made it entirely unfun.

I might go back to Arena if the T1->T2 gap is small enough that skill can overcome it.

[Sormer]

You could say the same about any sort of gear for Arena.

How about they give you all rags and basic weapons that you HAVE to use if playing arena, that cannot be upgraded in any way?

Considering that this is the way that Blizzard, professional, and event gaming tournaments all run (with a set pool of gear, of course, not necessarily rags), your sarcasm does you little credit. Other than pandering to gearmongers, I honestly don't know why they don't do it this way.

Looking like you are a Roman Slave Gladiator?

Would that make you happy?

I doubt it.

Actually, I care very little about appearance as far as PvP is concerned. I'm not saying that it's not nice to have aesthetically pleasing armor, but I wouldn't mind fighting in my skivvies as long as they had the necessary stats and were balanced against everyone else's underoos.

That means the season will start fresh AS LONG as they have enough points.

You're right, as long as you have a stockpile of points you could potentially start on equal footing at the beginning of a season. But from there it just turns right back into an arms race. The people who reach the higher ratings first get their better gear first and then enjoy an advantage until everyone catches up, which the advantage makes progressively harder to accomplish.

[Dumsnut]

This is another example of Blizzard having HUGE! oversight issues over their own game.

Day one:

Blizz: We remove rating for pvp items, because with rated bg ratings would be arbitrary and we didn't like how people felt they couldn't advance in PVP because of the ratings blocking them.

Casuals: Hooray!! Finally on equal grounds with those elitist arena heroes.

Elitist: QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ My e-peen is shrinking QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ

Day two:

Blizz: Because we cave in to massive QQ heroic T2 PVP weapons will now need rating.

----------------------------------------

So if the elitist QQ some more by day 3 or 4 things will be exactly as in WOTLK.

And Blizz says they don't cave in to QQ, lol less than 24 hours blizz!!! Less than 24 hours and you allready cave in to QQ.

That's not true and you know it. They did imply that there would be SOMETHING that still had rating and it is inevitable. Highrated players have to have something for themselves. Learn to read before you post dude.

[cherb]

You're right, as long as you have a stockpile of points you could potentially start on equal footing at the beginning of a season. But from there it just turns right back into an arms race. The people who reach the higher ratings first get their better gear first and then enjoy an advantage until everyone catches up, which the advantage makes progressively harder to accomplish.

Better players should gear up faster. They win more, they get more points, they get their shit first. It works the same way in PvE, as the best guilds clear shit faster, and gear up their raid much faster than a more casual guild that doesn't raid nearly as often.

Also, it is ONE item. If skill is not enough to overcome this one single weapon, then maybe the skill wasn't there in the first place.

[Deleted]

I think thats fair.

Allow the dedicated PvP'rs to have top end Pvp Weapons

[Deepone]

If someone has the skill to get to 2200 (for example) on, let's assume, a completely level playing field gear-wise, then what exactly is the point of giving them an even more powerful weapon once they get there? What does that prove? What does it accomplish in the spirit of competition?

You could say the same about any sort of gear for Arena.

How about they give you all rags and basic weapons that you HAVE to use if playing arena, that cannot be upgraded in any way?

It's been suggested, but it doesn't work because people want the shiny.

The concern, however, is that when you have to reach score X to get a good item, the players at score X have an advantage that isn't skill. Thus, unless everyone starts at exactly the same time, doesn't get better over time, doesn't change their comp, doesn't change their membership and doesn't play any more than anyone else, you have some who get to score X first by virtue of simply having been in the right place at the right time, not because they're better than the person at score X-1.

Now, there are people who are really, really good. They'll blow the doors off of the lower ranks even with the delta in gearing because they're that much better than the people they're facing, and eventually meet up with a tier of players who have gotten all of the best gear already, and are simply squaring off on a talent-vs-talent basis.

That just means that arena is a fair test of skill for the 10% of the player base that get to that point. It doesn't mean that it's a fair test of skill for the other 90% of participants whose ratings are dubious at best.

[molinator]

So with the exception of weps and off-hands, we can die our way to full BiS pvp now? ???

Yes.

It's better than having a huge disparity between undergeared and overgeared players in BGs and Arena.

[OlSom]

The original problem with the way it works now, as stated by Blizzard, was that people who come in to the season late, find a better comp or otherwise step up their game, can't catch up because they're facing people in radically better gear at the top.

WTF are you/they talking about?
If they can't reach the ratings where they can buy current season gear in 5/5 relentless, wrathful offparts and a i232 weapon, they certainly did not "find a better comp or otherwise step up their game".

The only they should add to make it better is the prev. seasons, in this case Relentless T1 weapon.

[Deepone]

Better players should gear up faster. They win more, they get more points, they get their shit first.

No, that's not the way it works. Comps change, patches break some comps and boost others mid-season, memberships of teams change, new teams are formed mid-season, people take vacations, etc.

There are practically infinite reasons that a good team might lag a slightly worse team at some point in a season. The rating system entrenches that lead artificially.

Also, it is ONE item. If skill is not enough to overcome this one single weapon, then maybe the skill wasn't there in the first place.

As I said before, we don't know numbers today (and it's potentially as many as 3 items, actually, depending on class). If T1->T2 is a small gap, then sure you should be able to overcome the bottom-ranked people in the next tier, even given a weapon advantage, unless you're right up against the natural rating of your team (e.g. where you would have ended up if there were no ratings requirements). But, if the gap is larger, then you might make it past the lower ratings hurdles, but you'll never cross the ones that are closer to your plateau.




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[azrielen]

Hmm. It seems like a good compromise.

However, didn't Blizzard originally say that they were taking rating off weapons becuase the community wanted it that way? I guess the community changed its mind.

I don't really pvp, but maybe rated bgs will make this relevant to my interests.

[mirodin]

Sormer communism died a long time ago.

U can't give equal benefits to those that work more, and those that slack around. To make a more valid point, FIA wanted to make all the cars same
in formula 1 so that the driver skill wins the race and not who has the faster car. The reason this didn't go thru is because some of the teams invest more in their engines, chassis design, break design and so on, they don't want to be restricted to let just call it noob level. if they went thru with their plan im sure most of those teams would back of and Formula 1 as we know it will be gone with them.

And as for , like you put it why give ppl that reach 2000+ rating some reward that makes them even go higher, its to motivate them to be even better, or reach the same level next season. Why does the Champions league or the Super bowl or any other team in sports that wins a major competition get more cash? They surely have the best players, they don't need more good players.

[Deepone]

WTF are you/they talking about?
If they can't reach the ratings where they can buy current season gear in 5/5 relentless, wrathful offparts and a i232 weapon, they certainly did not "find a better comp or otherwise step up their game".

Math is not strong in this one.

Look, it's simple. What you're saying is that if you're the best, the gearing plateaus won't stop you. That's painfully obvious, but the question isn't "is the top-ranked slot achievable for the best team?" The question is, "does the ratings requirement system prevent good teams from achieving the rating they would have achieved without the ratings requirement. When your gear gives you a 5% advantage and you face a team that's 2% better than you, you win more often than you lose. That's the fundamental inequity of the system, and it scales beautifully. Weapon only gives you a 1% advantage? OK, so now you can beat a team that's 0.5% better than you. It means that if you're right up against a rating requirement plateau, you probably didn't deserve it, but you happened to get there first.

[Tharkkun]

Any advantage is still an advantage. Anyone who has immersed themselves in the world of competitive, high-end PvP knows that you scrap for every last single stat point of an advantage that you can get.

If someone has the skill to get to 2200 (for example) on, let's assume, a completely level playing field gear-wise, then what exactly is the point of giving them an even more powerful weapon once they get there? What does that prove? What does it accomplish in the spirit of competition?

Then you shouldn't be competing with them if you can't get to 2200 as well. Get to that rank and buy your slightly higher ilevel weapons. Otherwise you shouldn't be in their bracket, correct?