Talent Tree Design, Blue Posts

[khh]

paladins have been broken since beginning of wow, god knows why took so long to fix them

but even if they ain't looking at your class, be glad since them you wont see more faceroll OP pallies in pvp after they fix them

[Crosis]

Here you're arguing my point for me, you're saying that the current beta testers are too elitist to get the content tested by a variety of players and yet you want to invite MORE of those people.

I just wanna correct you on this one, a majority of the time its not the hardcore raiders that are the elitests its infact the casuals who get some shiny purples and think they're gods. See the hardcore raiders barely raid/group outside of their guild and their "elitism" is contained between their friends/guildies. The "elitists" that people seem to have the issue with are the ones running or in pug raids, with their high gearscores and attitude since they have a gearscore higher then most they are better then everyone with less. These are the same people who feel that every loot they want from a pug should be defaulted to them since theyre so amazing "carrying" the rest of the raid with their amazing gear.

When it comes to beta, people who get into the beta instantly feel theyre better then everyone else not in the beta because they get to do stuff others dont. I mean look at the alpha testers on the forums youll see they are usually talking down to all the "new" beta testers. Its just human nature to think youre better then someone else the minute you get or do something few have or earn, alot of people feel this way but just dont express these feelings to everyone.

[Buzzinjoe]

Inexperienced is not the same as new.

You were referring to the leveling experience up to 10. So yes they are exactly the same.

Here you're arguing my point for me, you're saying that the current beta testers are too elitist to get the content tested by a variety of players and yet you want to invite MORE of those people.

I said the current testers are elitist and don't give constructive feedback. What's the point of adding new players that won't be able to give feedback because these guys are still around? Instead get good players that will give feedback. And top tier players are wrongfully labeled elitist btw.

As a generalisation? Of course I am, only a blithering idiot would think otherwise. Back in Vanilla my guild didn't raid, doing the 45 minute baron run in blues was the pinnacle of my pre-TBC experience and for a dungeon runner that was pretty bloody good. Come TBC we started raiding Kara/ZA and suddenly the dungeons looked like a walk in the park.

So what you're saying is that you thought Kara was more difficult than SV or SH were at first? I'd like to remind you that those dungeons were absolutely fantastic and they were challenging for raiders aswell at first. The only thing that was challenging in Kara got nerfed may I remind you and that was Nightbane v1. When you raided ZA you were already outgearing heroics so that's a moot point again. I'm talking about entry challenge. WotLK was just faceroll easy even the first time around.

Sure, there are terrible raiders and great dungeon runners, but as a generalisation the raiders are going to be better players simply because they have to be.

And that's something they want to change by making dungeons more challenging again. So if a dungeon is slightly challenging for raiders it's a great success. Thus they can test it just as well as dungeon runners.

If you draw a Venn diagram showing the intersection of the sets of upper 50% of players, lower 50% of players, dungeoneers, and raiders, the raiders will include more of the upper 50% and the dungeoneers the lower. I defy anyone to design a 5 man dungeon that the top two guilds on my server from either faction would find challenging that the average player was even capable of completing, the difference is that great.

Again I'll point you to SH and SV in TBC. All major guilds found them challenging at first, not overly, but challenging non the less. And they were indeed great fun. PuGs also managed these dungeons, it just took them a bit longer.

I've got 6 80s at the moment, if I roll one of the ones I haven't got I'm already going to be familiar enough with the mechanics and how Blizzard fit things together that it'll just be "blah blah blah, kill more stuff". A player with only 1 toon on live is going to have a very different experience to me, their experience matters just as much as mine.

So because you have 6 80s you're assuming every raider in the top guilds has 5 or more alts?

You invalidated precisely none of them, nor will you. Game betas use a hand picked few and a semi-random mass (semi random because you want a good mix of hardware, no point finding out at go-live that it doesn't work well on certain ATI GFX cards) because it's what's needed to test things properly. Blizzard didn't choose this model by accident, they chose it because it works better than anything else anyone's ever come up with.

As I recall in TBC a vast majority of top guilds were given multiple beta keys for WotLK. And guess what the feedback they got from that beta was the best they'd ever gotten. They said so themselves.

So basically you're saying that you believe the core of Blizzard's game design methodology is wrong so any feedback you gave on, for example, difficulty levels would be useless because your goal is not the same as Blizzard's goal. And you believe you're competent to design beta test selection criteria?

Yes I'm saying that the WotLK design goal was a wrong one. And again Blizzard admitted it by now trying to make dungeons more challenging and disallowing current top tier raiders to jump straight into a raid and succeed on Cata launch as they were able to with WotLK. Here again I can make the point that these top tier raiders are in fact the best suited beta testers since they're the ones that will be able to raid with the minimum gear required letting Blizzard know whether their scaling is working or not.

So what else have you got to say?

[thatguy181]

I'm fine with Blizzard taking the stance of "we want you to run out of dps/healing/tanking talents and pick up some not so clear talents" but the problem comes when for most of my classes it's not only that I run out of clear mandatory talents, I would nearly rather save those 2 or 3 talent points I end up having at the end and just stare at them than invest in any of the rather boring or CLEARLY unrelated spec wise talents.

[portague]

if you have all your dps/healing/tanking talents that are obvious then you need to choose the cc/pvp type that dont sound like they fit in wrath but they will fit in cata remember this is not the same as wrath you shouldnt think of talents in the wrath sense but in cata sense. Those cc/pvp type stuns silences interrupts will play a much larger role in 5 man dungeon survival and possibly raid content thats the way they want it. bosses will have more interruptable abilities being able to stop a 20k+ skill hit means the healer doesnt have to heal it or lose the mana healing and is a massive help especially sense healers will run out of mana and probably heal for less and you could save the tank or group from damage. Wich most dungeon oriented videos hint at your going need the cc to perform a dead group is bad for all the dps/healing whatever charts.

[Maneken]

I hope that Blizzard will understand one day bubble ISNT SACRED COW, remove from ret palas and then try to balance class.

[Hoosiermama]

if you have all your dps/healing/tanking talents that are obvious then you need to choose the cc/pvp type that dont sound like they fit in wrath but they will fit in cata remember this is not the same as wrath you shouldnt think of talents in the wrath sense but in cata sense. Those cc/pvp type stuns silences interrupts will play a much larger role in 5 man dungeon survival and possibly raid content thats the way they want it. bosses will have more interruptable abilities being able to stop a 20k+ skill hit means the healer doesnt have to heal it or lose the mana healing and is a massive help especially sense healers will run out of mana and probably heal for less and you could save the tank or group from damage. Wich most dungeon oriented videos hint at your going need the cc to perform a dead group is bad for all the dps/healing whatever charts.

I think most people are thinking ahead for when we're at level cap and done with badges. they're not going to make bosses silenceable. and there are enough interrupts in the raid to handle any amount of casts. sure, silences and stuns will be great for 5 mans. but they'll lose their luster when we're raiding and those abilities don't have a use outside of adds.

I'd like to see damage reuction talents made more interesting. I know it helps the healers and I know that's a good thing, but they're so boring.

[Pokchop]

TLDR version of GC's post: QUIT WHINING!

[portague]

I think most people are thinking ahead for when we're at level cap and done with badges. they're not going to make bosses silenceable. and there are enough interrupts in the raid to handle any amount of casts. sure, silences and stuns will be great for 5 mans. but they'll lose their luster when we're raiding and those abilities don't have a use outside of adds.

I'd like to see damage reuction talents made more interesting. I know it helps the healers and I know that's a good thing, but they're so boring.

true there boring in some regards but there more intresting then xskill by x% damage or x% crit increase those have even less to do change how you might use your character and are even more boring. More fights with movement means you need to be able to move faster or find a way to take less damage or threat if avaible at all through skills not talents. They might make raid bosses with certain things being interubtable obviously if they where to do that it would be very situational times for it. But definently more common on 5 man dungeon bosses. Not to mention tanks are having a hard time holding more 3 mobs of agro they dont seem to know how many mobs the want tanks to hold just yet. The days of good raid builds being take all the obvious dps increasing talents is going byby and i say good riddance having the ability to choose talents that actually offer different play style based on how you want to live and benificail to you after getting the dps talents that are obvious is good. After all taking taking talents that alter survival mechanics and stragey is more interesting than heres x% to hit crit damage wich is mundane and far more boring. So uniqueness will be based on how you survive and keep contributing to the raid and not be mana drain for the healer and how you can help the tank or any of the other combination not mention dead because dead is worthless. Its hard to say how raids will work with those talents they might make there more usable in raids lots of movement and massive aoe interms of aoe size complicats whats safe and whats not. max dps or healing is harder when moving on some classes than others so untill more raid info comes out its still in the air afterall it is beta

[Lostkeys]

Palidans require such needy attention by blizzard... thats it im making my rogue into a pally killer...

[Cyberzombie]

Exciting changes? They are taking everything away what made the paladin unique in the first place - sorry, this is garbage.

- Avenger's Shield no langer dazes: we never really had a interrupt to go with, and now they are taking away this.
- Paladins high block chance compared to other tanks
- AD no passive: now a clone of Last Stand
- Removing ShotR: it always was a clone of Shield Slam, what the fuck? Add a interrupt in it and it'll be "unique" again.
- etc. etc.

I dont like the direction paladin goes to, and some of you idiots can flame me now - you probably dont have the slighest clue about your own class, but whatever.

AS is still going to silence mob with the correct talent point, learn what daze is.
Paladins having a higher block chance was an unfair advantage.
AD being passive is arguably an unfair advantage.
Removal of SoR is not permanent as of yet. They're simply testing it - WHICH IS WHAT A BETA IS.

You suggest that we don't know our own class and yet you have misinformation all over your post, and all you're really doing is QQing that Paladins are going to take skill to play now.

And before the flames, my main is a protadin. Arasi on Icecrown.

[Ap0calypse]

More concerned with the loss of magic debuffs from cleanse and stun removal using HoF as ret than anything else shown at present. Whats a melee class with no gap closer? Unless mages/druids can no longer slow/root in cataclysm then I think we all know what that means.

That the Paladin as a melee class (both as prot and ret) are screwed. As in useless in pvp, go spec holy.

I foresee lolret all over again for pvp.

[stillnotking]

I just wanna correct you on this one, a majority of the time its not the hardcore raiders that are the elitests its infact the casuals who get some shiny purples and think they're gods.

QFT. The vast majority of people with arrogant, "elitist" attitudes are gearscore whores in mediocre-to-bad guilds who think they're awesome because they have a 6k GS and/or got carried through a normal mode LK kill with a 30% buff. Raiders in actual hardcore guilds tend to be pretty laid-back in PUGs; they know they have nothing to prove. They also tend to give the most helpful beta feedback and have the closest relationships to Blizzard developers.

"Elitism" was never an issue in WoW until WotLK opened the floodgates to people who wouldn't even have been able to get in a raiding guild in vanilla/TBC. This is not a coincidence. (Note I am not saying it was a bad decision on Blizzard's part -- there were positive and negative outcomes, I'm just pointing out one of the negatives.)

---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 05:47 AM ----------

Ardent Defender is currently the most absurdly broken tanking talent in the game and everyone knows it. My pally is main spec prot, and even I want to see the damn thing nerfed. Turning it into an active CD is a reasonable way to balance it.

[Glanbera]

Quit mmo-champion if you dont like the whining - and dude, another point: if everyone of us were like you, we'd be still living in a monarchy.

Some of us DO live in a monarchy

I hope that Blizzard will understand one day bubble ISNT SACRED COW, remove from ret palas and then try to balance class.

I want to keep my bubble

If they ever take my bubble i demand a huge nerf of iceblock (cut the duration in half and double the cd)

[Jaylock]

It slows the pulls if you are one of those silly people that actually wait for the mobs to come to you on every pull. This tank uses AS on the run and i do HotR instantly after that. Pull is slowed by half a sec max. Now, for the aforementioned tanks, the pull without daze will still last longer than it does for me with the daze. I mean it's a "stupid pointless change" that's fed to you with a dressing of "stupid silly reason" which you eat up without question and ask for seconds. Oh well, guess prot pvp is dead anyway with all the changes they plan on doing so i don't know why i'm complaining.

Did you ever think that maybe prot paladins liked the daze because it gives other classes a bit of time to get CC on the mobs? Of course CC is non-existent in this retarded expansion so i guess it doesnt matter now. I like it for some of the Blood Prince and blood queen trash to give priests a padding to shackle the tactitions. And since they said CC will be making a return in this expansion, wouldnt the daze be a welcome addition? Just my thoughts.

Yes, this WotLK expansion has been complete and utter crap. End rant.

[Failbot]

I dont know how you can say that you remove pure pvp talents, ppl can spec the way they want and so on and still force every dk to put atleast 8 on frost and 8 on uh... Gj making blood not viable in pvp. Oh and nice job still not giving any real dis protection to frost or blood... Oh and gj giving us CDs on runes and 3 main attacks(Dps, MS and the new disease attack thing) that use 2 runes.. Haha that will be fun!

[holyevil44]

i just hope blizz dont fuck fury warrior 2 mutch so we wont have a raid spot in cata, cos its starting to look like evry patch of the beta htere is a nerf for us

[portague]

More concerned with the loss of magic debuffs from cleanse and stun removal using HoF as ret than anything else shown at present. Whats a melee class with no gap closer? Unless mages/druids can no longer slow/root in cataclysm then I think we all know what that means.

That the Paladin as a melee class (both as prot and ret) are screwed. As in useless in pvp, go spec holy.

I foresee lolret all over again for pvp.

Looking at the current chart frost mages cant slow you as hard no more fb randomly freezing you they frost nova and improved cone of cold both have cd cone of cold with 8 sec cd. looks like they want you to repentance the mage get in close pound there face rebuke if they try to cast thats about it not sure how that will workout for rets.

[Fichek]

Looking at the current chart frost mages cant slow you as hard no more fb randomly freezing you they frost nova and improved cone of cold both have cd cone of cold with 8 sec cd. looks like they want you to repentance the mage get in close pound there face rebuke if they try to cast thats about it not sure how that will workout for rets.

You repent the mage, get close to him, tickle him once and hes already far far away from you. Now all you need to do is wait 1 more min so you can tickle him again while eating frostbolts, frostfire bolts and ice lances in the meantime. If that's not fun, i don't know what is!