Rated BGs will Fix and Kill PvP

[haxartus]

Skill is mostly something you already have, and you can improve it by practising and training ALOT.

No, skill is something that you acquire with practicing something a lot and wanting to be good at it. You don't have it in the first place.
In Vanilla almost everyone was terrible in PvP. There were only a few players that could actually play pvp, and they were famous. What is the situation now ? Everyone above certain arena rating is more skilled then the "Vanilla stars". Where did that difference come ? Yes, from the arena.

[Balduvian]

No, skill is something that you acquire with practicing something a lot and wanting to be good at it. You don't have it in the first place.

You contradicted yourself there. You don't have to be good in the first place, but you CAN be. Some people are just skilled rather then that they had alot of practise. If skill was 100% something you can train on, then are you telling me the people below a certain rating aren't dedicated enough and are therefore on that rating...? No, just no.

To fall back on a previous said statement: You can't become a proffesional singer/football player just by having dedication. You need to have talent to start with.

Practising just improves your skill.

[haxartus]

Some people are just skilled rather then that they had alot of practise.

No, they just learn faster. That's only for WoW of course. In the WoW "skill" everything is in your head. That's why you can't compare a real life professional sport to a computer game.
Also the people in the lower ratings aren't dedicated enough.

[Balduvian]

No, they just learn faster. That's only for WoW of course. In the WoW "skill" everything is in your head. That's why you can't compare a real life professional sport to a computer game.

No. Some people are just faster with keybindings then others. Some people got a better overview of what's happening around them then others. Some people are just better teamplayers then others.

These are things you can't infinitely practice on. You can get faster and become a better teamplayer, but some people will still just be better.

Also the people in the lower ratings aren't dedicated enough.

And no, it's not always about dedication. Some people are just actually stuck on 800 rating, or 1300, or 1900, or 2.4k because they can't do it any better. What you're saying is that each and every person would be 100% equally skilled before they start, which is obviously absurd.

Also, there are things called setup, spec and gear, which gives people on certain ratings who are playing a "bad" or less viable setup, playing a "bad" or less viable spec, and have "bad" or less good gear a disadvantage. As a matter of fact (and I'm just throwing out an example), I can easily say that a Feral Druid on 2k is more skilled then a Resto Druid on 2.2.

[haxartus]

There is no "they can't do any better". They are stuck in a some rating for a reason. If they are dedicated enough, they will find the reason for that and fix it.
If they are bad teamplayers - they should find why they suck at teamplay. And when they figure it out they can do something to fix it.
There is no magical reason why some players are bad and why some players are good.

[Direpanda]

/cough

"Talent" is natural ability to learn something or do something.

"Skill" is learned ability, acquired from practice.

If you have the former, you gain the latter at a faster pace. The former also sets a hard cap for the latter; I will never be an Olympic sprinter, for example, because I do not have the talent. You can argue all you want about dedication; the fact remains that some people are simply unable to go beyond a certain point—I could train for a million years and I'd never be able to compete in the 100-meter at the highest levels, and we all know people who will never be and never could be rocket scientists, no matter how hard they try, because they simply lack the intelligence.

But even if you lack all vestiges of talent, you can become plenty skilled with lots of practice and good instruction. And dedication can make up for a dearth of talent; but at high levels of competition, you get people who are both talented and dedicated, and if you've got only the one or the other, you're going to have a hard time competing.

That is the nature of competition.

[haxartus]

/cough

"Talent" is natural ability to learn something or do something.

"Skill" is acquired from practice.

If you have the former, you gain the latter at a faster pace. The former also sets a hard cap for the latter; I will never be an Olympic sprinter, for example, because I do not have the talent. You can argue all you want about dedication; the fact remains that some people are simply unable to go beyond a certain point—I could train for a million years and I'd never be able to compete in the 100-meter at the highest levels, and we all know people who will never be and never could be rocket scientists, no matter how hard they try, because they simply lack the intelligence.

But even if you lack all vestiges of talent, you can become plenty skilled with lots of practice and good instruction. And dedication can make up for a dearth of talent; but at high levels of competition, you get people who are both talented and dedicated, and if you've got only the one or the other, you're going to have a hard time competing.

That is the nature of competition.

You're right, but your post is more about real life than WoW. It's much more easier to become good in WoW than to become a rocked scientist. The level of "talent" that is required for WoW is almost non existent.

[Balduvian]

There is no "they can't do any better". They are stuck in a some rating for a reason. If they are dedicated enough, they will find the reason for that and fix it.

You're doing it again. According to you every player is equally skilled, just not equally dedicated. If you want to stay in that dream, I will from now on stop trying to wake you up.

[haxartus]

No, according to me every WoW player has no skill at the beginning. The skill in WoW can be acquired, and the time that it requires depend on motivation/dedication and some other things that a player can have.

[Balduvian]

No, according to me every player has no skill at the beginning. The skill in WoW can be acquired, and the time that it requires depend on motivation/dedication and some other things that a player can have.

Now you're saying that all specs and setups are equally as good aswell.

[haxartus]

I never said that. You aren't understanding my posts correctly.

[klaps_05]

it wont kill pvp and the "skill" in a bg will come down to people staying at a base and defending, and I heard that is REAAAAAAAAAALY hard. and 5v5 is far from a "faceroll" unless you are playing it just to pass the time.

[Direpanda]

it wont kill pvp and the "skill" in a bg will come down to people staying at a base and defending, and I heard that is REAAAAAAAAAALY hard. and 5v5 is far from a "faceroll" unless you are playing it just to pass the time.

If you really think BG (i.e strategic) skill involves simply standing on a flag and defending ... well, you're not very good at thinking. The best defense doesn't stay at a single base at all. They hold at some middle point and move as needed.

[Balduvian]

I never said that. You aren't understanding my posts correctly.

Nah you said "they are stuck on some rating for a reason" and according to you the reason was that they didn't have enough dedication. But in fact, some people just can't get any higher then a certain rating with a certain class/spec/setup etc.

After that, you said that "skill in WoW can be acquired, and the time it requires depend on motivation/dedication" which simply means that you think motivation and dedication are the key to skill and thus the key to high ratings. If dedication and motivation were the key to high ratings, I would be sitting on 3k in all brackets instead of 1900 and soonish 2k with my Feral Druid by now.

[haxartus]

I've seen enough people get to insane ratings with theoretically "broken" combos. Of course each one of them had previous experience on higher ratings with a "normal" combo for at least a season or two.
Your way of thinking is exactly the reason why so many people get stuck at certain ratings. You're not at high rating because you miss something, and not because you're a feral druid or you just can't go any higher. Look at these druids
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/playe...l/112/all/all/
Each one of them started as a noob. There is no secret/talent/magical skill/ behind their success. They just played a lot and became good at it.
Edit: New link

[Danur]

Balduvian you don't start with skill. And you don't gain a whole lot of skill from strictly BGs since you never get a chance to break down and assess why you are winning or losing a fight. Arena puts it under the microscope and you can literally break down the tit-for-tat play by play battle between you and a probable opponent.

Do you trinket the howl of terror or the fear 1v1? What if you have a pally or shaman with you? Do you CC the feral or the warrior? Understanding what the best kill target is, and how to chain and avoid CC changes drastically depending upon the situation, and you don't learn that from PuG bgs. You're not gonna hit any decent ratings with no experience. Period.

[Direshadow]

Rated battlegrounds do not solve the issues with current battlegrounds, and that is where the efforts needs to be, not moving the issue elsewhere.
Honor gains from random ganking, and simply screwing around need to go.
Honor gains only when in promixity to an objective, whether that be a tower, base or flag.
You can be a complete ass in normal battlegrounds and still come out with your reward.
Rated or not, that will not change.

There is a very high chance that if Blizzard will take a serious look at all of the current Battlegrounds and incorperate some very stiff rules behind them, much like Arenas. If they are serious about making rated bgs work, they'll need to consider the following.

- Team balance (No 15 paladin teams, etc)

- Non class buffs (Flasks, Elixers, Engineering, etc)

- Terrain Exploitation (Casting through hillsides)

- Geometry Exploitation (Getting on the roof of Stabs in AB etc)


I'll also point out that anyone who hasn't actually raided or killed LK shouldn't talk about raiding like it's for retards.

While knowing your rotation and how to step out of fire is important, it's only a small peice of the puzzle. When you start getting into fights like Heroic Professor, knowing your rotation isn't the ONLY thing you need to understand suddenly.

Edit: Also, I really believe that Blizzard will put an emphasis on the "war games" aspect of Rated Battlegrounds, which is pre-planned matches against teams on your own server.

AKA... you can have a BG that is Alliance Guild#1 VS Alliance Guild#2

[Balduvian]

I've seen enough people get to insane ratings with theoretically "broken" combos. Of course each one of them had previous experience on higher ratings with a "normal" combo for at least a season or two.
Your way of thinking is exactly the reason why so many people get stuck at certain ratings. You're not at high rating because you miss something, and not because you're a feral druid or you just can't go any higher. Look at these druids
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/playe...l/112/all/all/
Each one of them started as a noob. There is no secret/talent/magical skill/ behind their success. They just played a lot and became good at it.
Edit: New link

No, I'm at 1900's atm and 2k soonish with my Feral Druid(and probably won't get higher) because I'm simply not better then that. I can practise all I want and I might end up a bit higher, but there's no way everyone can learn and practise untill they're a Gladiator.

You're not gonna hit any decent ratings with no experience. Period.

I totally agree that Arena gives you more skill as I've said before aswell, but this is just not true. I 100% agree that Arenas are the best way to learn about..arenas, but if you practise in BG and you got some skill, you can do fine. Do you honestly think there's no one on the whole planet who got to 2.2k+ rating in their first few weeks of arena..? Because I know a few already.


Anyway, I don't feel like going on about this. My point was clear and basically I agreed with both of you except for the part where you said that playing BG's will teach you nothing at all, and which I think is just plain false. Any form of PvP can teach you new things you didn't know yet, and you can use that in arena.

[Bobzor]

No, I'm at 1900's atm and 2k soonish with my Feral Druid(and probably won't get higher) because I'm simply not better then that. I can practise all I want and I might end up a bit higher, but there's no way everyone can learn and practise untill they're a Gladiator.

Explain to me why you won't be able to get better? =S=S Is your brain that is unable to handle more information? Surely it is not.
You can always time those cyclones better and always come up with new clever ideas how to beat a spicific team.

When i started playing this game i was a clicker and keyboard turner. I did this up until mid season 3 and managed to reach 1786 rating as elemental/sl/sl lock before WotlK was released.

I first broke 1,8 in s5 as resto/warrior and got my first arena weapon(yeey!) At this point i was still clicking some of my abilities. I wasn't using focuz target and struggled with a clumpsy healing method.

I broke 2k for the first time as shaman/spriest/lock in what i think was early s6 when me and a friend got some help from a former glad. It was here where i started thinking about how i could really improve my performance. I left my PvE guild joined one with the servers top PvPers and started practising using my focus frames and creating macros.
Got invited to a team and started playing RLS and broke 2,2k for the first time which was really awesome!.

I got my Duelist that season and started playing Shatter play with some kuwaity guys. We managed to reach 2350! and i could get my relentless tabard!!

s7 ended and the mage we were playing with quit so we found ourselves a rogue and started playing RSP and eventually pushed it up til an astonishing rating of 2500! But things happend and priest raged and stopped playing =P

I started doing 5s with a bunch of cool guys as elemental this time and started to pic up some gear.

stopped doing serious arena for a while and had a 3 month break from wow. Came back and started to play wiz cleave with some friends until pally left to play dispel cleave(FU BAWLZ).

About 2 months ago i got asked if i wanted to get glad and started playing with 2 guys i even looked up to in TBC! We rolled LSD for minimum effort and now we sit at a fairly high rating ;0

This is my wow story! No1 is the best by default. It takes lots of practise and effort but I truly belive anyone could do it!
The best advice is to start playing with better players than yourself cuz you will pick up a lot of great stuff and become a much better player yourself.

[Danur]

Explain to me why you won't be able to get better? =S=S Is your brain that is unable to handle more information? Surely it is not.
You can always time those cyclones better and always come up with new clever ideas how to beat a spicific team.

When i started playing this game i was a clicker and keyboard turner. I did this up until mid season 3 and managed to reach 1786 rating as elemental/sl/sl lock before WotlK was released.

I first broke 1,8 in s5 as resto/warrior and got my first arena weapon(yeey!) At this point i was still clicking some of my abilities. I wasn't using focuz target and struggled with a clumpsy healing method.

I broke 2k for the first time as shaman/spriest/lock in what i think was early s6 when me and a friend got some help from a former glad. It was here where i started thinking about how i could really improve my performance. I left my PvE guild joined one with the servers top PvPers and started practising using my focus frames and creating macros.
Got invited to a team and started playing RLS and broke 2,2k for the first time which was really awesome!.

I got my Duelist that season and started playing Shatter play with some kuwaity guys. We managed to reach 2350! and i could get my relentless tabard!!

s7 ended and the mage we were playing with quit so we found ourselves a rogue and started playing RSP and eventually pushed it up til an astonishing rating of 2500! But things happend and priest raged and stopped playing =P

I started doing 5s with a bunch of cool guys as elemental this time and started to pic up some gear.

stopped doing serious arena for a while and had a 3 month break from wow. Came back and started to play wiz cleave with some friends until pally left to play dispel cleave(FU BAWLZ).

About 2 months ago i got asked if i wanted to get glad and started playing with 2 guys i even looked up to in TBC! We rolled LSD for minimum effort and now we sit at a fairly high rating ;0

This is my wow story! No1 is the best by default. It takes lots of practise and effort but I truly belive anyone could do it!
The best advice is to start playing with better players than yourself cuz you will pick up a lot of great stuff and become a much better player yourself.

Your story sounds like mine, only it has more success -_-