If you're against dispersion, whats your reason for it?

[zsun]

I also fail to see why some people think Dispersion does not fit as a 31 point talent. It's true that on its own, it may be a little weak compared to the 31 point talents of other classes. In fact if every class had only ONE talent in their trees and that talent is the 31 point talent, then dispersion would probably the weakest.

The issue does not lie within the 31 point talent itself, it rather focuses on our other talents as well as our other abilities. If all our other talents are marginally stronger than other classes, then it would only make sense that our 31 point talent would be made a bit weaker if everything needs to be balanced. Remember that other classes NEED the 31 point DPS talent in order to balance out their damage. For us, our damage is ALREADY balanced without it, so in terms of DPS, we don't even need a 31 point talent. Why debate about a DPS talent that we don't need? If hypothetically our 31 point talent is changed to a DPS increasing talent in the next build, then that will definitely result in a nerf in some other aspects of our damage.

The bottom line is that everything needs to be balanced. Not just DPS, but survivability and mana regen as well. Blizzard doesn't really care about what goes where as long as it's all balanced at the end of the day. If they see that we can use a bit of regen and survivability, they'll give it to us. And if the 31 point talent is the only place they can find to give it, so be it then. If they see we can use a bit of burst for cata, they'll give it to us too, via Mind Spike.

[Annesh]

I think a lot of the complaining is from some spriests thinking they gan get a shiny new 31pt talents instead and keep dispersion as well.

this.

honestly, if the complaint isn't just a back-ass-wards way of asking for buffs, i really don't get it. i've never fully understood it.

how is it even remotely relevant where in the tree it is? the leveling spriest doesn't get quite the same dps upgrade as the leveling destro lock when finally getting his capstone talent, but leveling spriests represent a very small and temporary minority.

seriously, the dispersion argument is silly and meaningless. the only valid reason for it to exist is to say, let's put dispersion lower in the tree and get a shiny new dps skill in its place - which is just asking for a buff (and not even really that since we would then be balanced around that new skill and wouldn't actually do more dps; our rotation would just be more complicated).

my 2cp

[Kiora]

Having read nothig but the first page (sorry!), I have but one thing to say:

Ice Barrier would like a word with you. Deep freeze for the first 90% of it's existance would like another word with you. Yes, I am a mage.

Alright, I lied. I'm going to say more than just that. I'll remove deep freeze from discussion because a) it's been fixed and b) when it wasn't for pve frost was god awful in raids anyway.

31 point talents are by no means designed to be useful to both your primary role in raids and your primary role in pvp. Is a frost mage's role to waste a GCD using ice barrier? Is yours to waste time sitting in dispersion? I didn't think so. That doesn't make them useless 31 point talents. They are both -very- powerful tools that are very useful for raids. Situational maybe, but still useful. Progression is all about situational advantages, honestly.

Mages struggled with pre-nerf Freya+3 due to the ridiculously large amounts of burst you could receive in fractions of a second. We didn't have that "situational survivability" that our frost tree had. Raiding isn't all about damage. Dispersion is incredibly useful for a ton of things in raiding, just as Ice Barrier is. No mage in their right mind would think of skipping Ice Barrier. If you want to use the argument that it has a shorter CD, go for it, and I'll just tell you that Ice Block would be just as desirable as a 31 point talent as either of these other two spells.

You can use the "well if you raid perfectly, you don't need survivability talents" and I will say you are correct. I'll also tell you that nobody raids "perfectly" (it is in quotes for a reason) until content is well into the farming stage.

As long as your spec does competitive dps and is interesting, who really cares if your 31 point talent is the thing that makes it so? If you have 30 interesting talents in your tree, but the one not so shiny one is your 31 pt, is it that big of a deal? Dispersion is a great spell. It is not a new spell for your rotation, but does that make it bad? Certainly not.

Anyone who skips dispersion is doing it wrong. "ohshit" moment spells are invaluable for progression raiding, and that applies to every class.

Please stop crying. Mages rely on an interruptable, 8 second channel which they cant do any damage, and only get mana back, that arcane has to use on cooldown, and fire at least once, depending on the fight.

You guys have it easy.

You two are missing one of the problems that a lot of Shadow Priests have with Dispersion when people are complaining about what it does. Imagine if your Blink, Ice Block and Evocation all shared a single cooldown. There's very few scenarios outside of PvP where when you activate Dispersion where you are considering more than one of the three issues that Dispersion can fix (Mana, High Incoming Damage or Being Rooted) but you still lose the spell for all of them. So in a way the spell's clunky because it tries to do too much in one button.

[Abandon]

I quite enjoy my 31 point talent allowing me to do things that nobody else in the game can do, like giggle as Big Bang from Algalon takes off about a third of my health bar.

The only, and I mean *only* reason I could argue for it being moved to a different spot in the talent tree is so we can get it for levelling sooner.

[Scrubble]

Dispersion is a GREAT abilitiy and worth a talent point, it is NOT worth being the 31pt talent.
31pt talents are some sort of class defining damage/healing/cooldown (tank pov) ability.
Maybe if Shadowform became our 'given' spell when reaching lvl 10, mindflay becomes trainable and dispersion gets put right up the top of the tree as we need mana early on because shadowfiend is trained at 60- something.
Then give shadow priests a nuke, dot, cooldown or something like Chakra or Soul shards empowering abilities in new way.

[Deleted]

So YOUR point is, you don't like the way the talent tree LOOKS... because, frankly I don't care if the 31 talent point is...

Trolling much? Now if you scroll up a bit on the first page, you will a list of points why I don't like Dispersion as 31-point talent. What about commenting on them instead of being a smartass?

[Deleted]

You can survive boss mechanics with Dispersion. That is pretty awesome.

[zsun]

Dispersion is a GREAT abilitiy and worth a talent point, it is NOT worth being the 31pt talent.
31pt talents are some sort of class defining damage/healing/cooldown (tank pov) ability.
Maybe if Shadowform became our 'given' spell when reaching lvl 10, mindflay becomes trainable and dispersion gets put right up the top of the tree as we need mana early on because shadowfiend is trained at 60- something.
Then give shadow priests a nuke, dot, cooldown or something like Chakra or Soul shards empowering abilities in new way.

And that new way is Mind Spike, trained at level 81. It's completely possible to make Mind Spike the 31 point talent for those who like their 31 point talent to be DPS related, and make dispersion learned somewhere else in the tree, or trained at level 81. Either way, at level 85, you will still have dispersion, and Mind Spike.

Similarly Blizzard can also make Shadowy Apparition the 31 point talent. It's more class defining than Dispersion don't you think?

[Deleted]

Eh, I'd never trade Disp away for anything else - and if such a powerful ability is not worthy of a 31pointer, then I don't know what is. Not every talent has to be a direct DPS boost. I'll list just a few instances where disp is extremely useful to either spriest himself, or to the rest of the raid in icc/rs:

- getting spiked during the lolstorm - especially if he just charged you and is lolstorming on your head;
- getting out of MC just next to a ghost or two - hopefully the rest of the raid cleared away already;
- making transition from normal phase to frenzy on DBS a little easier on your healer if a bit too many marks popped up;
- surviving a hit or two from the blood beast if you were too slow;
- ignoring spores on Fester;
- running right through slime pool without a worry about the damage and slow on Rot and getting the slime to merge faster;
- holding unbound plague a few seconds longer;
- soaking ooze explosion by yourself;
- kiting orange out of healers' range;
- running around with 11+ stacks of the prison if need arises for any reason;
- soaking empowered fire orb easily;
- dropping all the BQL's fire in one spot leaving THAT much more free space for everyone else;
- making healers' life a bit easier during the whirl;
- ignoring unchained on normal Sindra(And possibly on hc as well, with careful planning and execution);
- taking ice tomb in p3 with much less of a hp loss;
- taking a tick of necrotic - and thus being able to stay further away from the shambling and letting others be closer;
- soaking spirits;
- making healers' job a bit easier in the frostmourne room;
- taking the cutter if you failed to move properly (afaik it's the only ability protecting from it, since immunities are pierced?);
- moving out of soul consumption during the cutter and not getting caught.

And that's just what came to my mind now. There is also plenty of opportunities you can disperse while on move and regen some of the mana for no dps loss (and people dare to compare this to evocation, which is big loss ~~). If you glyphed it - and I see no reason to not do it, since the only other option is SW:P - you get a powerful defensive cooldown with a nice mana regen added on top of it on a very short cooldown. What's to dislike? Oo

[Solfire]

Trolling much? Now if you scroll up a bit on the first page, you will a list of points why I don't like Dispersion as 31-point talent. What about commenting on them instead of being a smartass?

So if someone tells you you're wrong, they're missing the point. If I tell you -you're- wrong, I'm trolling? I backed up my reasons for why I believe you're wrong. As well as the post, in which I quoted you, said the whole point was that it doesn't belong there but somewhere else. That is 100% aesthetics. While I did read through the first two pages, before giving up and rolling my eyes, I don't believe I paid attention to who said what. So, yes, I apologize for not knitpicking on whatever else you said that I probably disagree with. I simply assumed "the whole point" (You said this very clearly, over and over again.), was to emphasize this was the summary of your opinion.


Edit: I re-read my other post. my GOD I'm sarcastic. My point still stands though. :| Just deal with the sarcasm or look the other way.

[exeq]

You two are missing one of the problems that a lot of Shadow Priests have with Dispersion when people are complaining about what it does. Imagine if your Blink, Ice Block and Evocation all shared a single cooldown. There's very few scenarios outside of PvP where when you activate Dispersion where you are considering more than one of the three issues that Dispersion can fix (Mana, High Incoming Damage or Being Rooted) but you still lose the spell for all of them. So in a way the spell's clunky because it tries to do too much in one button.

And imagine that you can get Iceblock, evocation and blink for a single talent point. And the drawback is that they're on single cooldown. For me it's pretty good deal. It worse then three separate abilities, but you can't get three separate abilities as one talent. I think this is a big advantage of Dispersion. I can use it either for mana OR survival. You can always choose when you want to use it.

As for Dispersion not being good 31 pointers: I think it is in the right place. It not something you need to have so you dps would not suck. This way we don't need to get to level 69 to become shadowpriest. It's just cool and situational ability.

[Azyoulike]

People think of the 31point talent as their christmas present, with all the other talents along the way as being more like pocket money (allowance if you're american). People also tend to revert to their inner 8 year old when judging these matters.

Now imagine you told a 8 year old that for christmas this year he/she was getting some crummy present while his brother got a PS3 or a mini motocross bike or whatever. It wouldn't matter that the brother got less pocket money all year, you would still be facing an epic temper tantrum.

This is a visceral, emotional thing - so reasoned arguments aren't really relevant. Dispersion is a fine talent, people just have weird expectations.

[tyden49]

I think dispersion is a wonderful 31 point talent, i'd much rather it than say "hunger for blood" (boring talent) and as other posters have said SPs will be balanced around not having another dps cd so it really doesnt matter. Yes i'd love them to remove the silence but that would be OP think beastial wrath plus 90% dmg reduction.

[Thrayne]

I think dispersion is a wonderful 31 point talent, i'd much rather it than say "hunger for blood" (boring talent) and as other posters have said SPs will be balanced around not having another dps cd so it really doesnt matter. Yes i'd love them to remove the silence but that would be OP think beastial wrath plus 90% dmg reduction.

Dispersion doesn't increase you and your pets dmg, it is for a shorter peroid, you can still be stunned, cycloned feared and even polyed I believe.


So a non silenced dispersion would be nothing like BW.

[Kaesebrezen]

It's just cool and situational ability.

It's not situational. Our mana regen is balanced around it being there. It's a mana cooldown with a VERY OCCASIONAL side effect of reducing damage taken.

The only reason you can use dispersion for it's damage reduction currently is because you have endless mana. At 85 your mana will go away very, very fast.

[Saverem]

Dispersion is fine, it's a lot more useful than Ele's Thunderstorm or Mage's Deep Freeze in PvE while also being pretty much required for PvP.

[sharksfan1912]

i dont play a priest, but it seems to me any talent is a dps increase if it keeps you from laying on the floor during a boss fight >.>

[Baabinator]

I also fail to see why some people think Dispersion does not fit as a 31 point talent. It's true that on its own, it may be a little weak compared to the 31 point talents of other classes. In fact if every class had only ONE talent in their trees and that talent is the 31 point talent, then dispersion would probably the weakest.

Earthquake says hi.

[Sharaki]

You two are missing one of the problems that a lot of Shadow Priests have with Dispersion when people are complaining about what it does. Imagine if your Blink, Ice Block and Evocation all shared a single cooldown. There's very few scenarios outside of PvP where when you activate Dispersion where you are considering more than one of the three issues that Dispersion can fix

Thats the reason why I like it. Bad priests will just use it on cooldown or save it for "might happen" damage. Good priest will almost always find a way to combine those both. (allow me to use words good and bad, you might as well say priest1 and priest2, its just personal opinion). In same way priests can max out shadowfiend, like use it with trinket procs and maximise number of uses during bossfight, or pop it just before heroism/lust.

Difference might not be gamebreaking. Bosses die even if I raid naked with /follow when things are on farmmode. Still its all those little things combined that separates good dps and not-that-good dps.

Given interesting mechanic that aint straight dps rotation thing is good enough for me. I hope others would concider it that way as well.


What goes for "tree-defining-talent" part. I'm with the thought that VT would fit that better. Hell, shadowform is much more tree defining talent than anything. Shadowform as 31pt would be just... well shadow tree thing #1 But it would be harsh for levelers until blizz balances leveling for not having it until lvl69.

---------- Post added 2010-09-25 at 06:07 PM ----------

Shall we?
1) It does too many things at once.
2) It doesn't create "yeah!" feeling when used for mana reasons.
3) Dispersion isn't lucrative talent enough for leveling Priests.
4) The talent doesn't have clear benefit in PvE.
5) Dispersion doesn't reward PvE players for having talent point in it.
6) Dispersion doesn't make the difference when used in PvE.
7) Dispersion's functionality doesn't go in line with what the Shadow tree does.

Allow me.
1. It does. One can't spam it mindlessly to gain all benefits. Someone might get them all but that requires planning. I'm with everything that aint mindless spamming
2. It did create "yeah!" feeling on Yogg hardmodes where other classes had mana issues thanks to long fight with current gear. Mages planning when to use evocation and cursing if it got cancelled while spriest could use it without dps downtime. YEAH won the meters and boss went down :P
3. Multidotting leveling (thou cata will change that). dot multiple targets, pop dispersion, have 100% hp/mana. Feels good man.
4. Mana cooldown on demand usable while moving, even if moving trough bad shit like in putri p3, ohshit button if mana aint needed on demand (for ex hc anub 25 there was time for 2 dispersions trought the fight, so I got plenty of timeframe to save them and use when needed)
5. It doesn't reward when fights are on farm, BUT it rewards when youre on progressmode and its all that matters pve pov.
6. Isn't this practically same question as 6. at least the answer is same.
7. What shadowtree does? In TBC it was mana mana mana (someone can link the song :P). Even in vanilla it was great manalongevity that shadow had. So all in all, shadow is spec that has plenty of mana and restores it to others as well. Dispersion fits for that "what is mana?" part of our class.

[Frizer]

New glyph of dispersion. After coming out of dispersion you gain 30% crit for 6 seconds

fixt

I really don't know, but I think I rather stick with the CD reduction. Dispersion its counter for too many boss' abilities to be hated that much.