If you're against dispersion, whats your reason for it?

[Kiora]

Thats the reason why I like it. Bad priests will just use it on cooldown or save it for "might happen" damage. Good priest will almost always find a way to combine those both. (allow me to use words good and bad, you might as well say priest1 and priest2, its just personal opinion). In same way priests can max out shadowfiend, like use it with trinket procs and maximise number of uses during bossfight, or pop it just before heroism/lust.

Difference might not be gamebreaking. Bosses die even if I raid naked with /follow when things are on farmmode. Still its all those little things combined that separates good dps and not-that-good dps.

Given interesting mechanic that aint straight dps rotation thing is good enough for me. I hope others would concider it that way as well.


What goes for "tree-defining-talent" part. I'm with the thought that VT would fit that better. Hell, shadowform is much more tree defining talent than anything. Shadowform as 31pt would be just... well shadow tree thing #1 But it would be harsh for levelers until blizz balances leveling for not having it until lvl69.

---------- Post added 2010-09-25 at 06:07 PM ----------


Allow me.
1. It does. One can't spam it mindlessly to gain all benefits. Someone might get them all but that requires planning. I'm with everything that aint mindless spamming
2. It did create "yeah!" feeling on Yogg hardmodes where other classes had mana issues thanks to long fight with current gear. Mages planning when to use evocation and cursing if it got cancelled while spriest could use it without dps downtime. YEAH won the meters and boss went down :P
3. Multidotting leveling (thou cata will change that). dot multiple targets, pop dispersion, have 100% hp/mana. Feels good man.
4. Mana cooldown on demand usable while moving, even if moving trough bad shit like in putri p3, ohshit button if mana aint needed on demand (for ex hc anub 25 there was time for 2 dispersions trought the fight, so I got plenty of timeframe to save them and use when needed)
5. It doesn't reward when fights are on farm, BUT it rewards when youre on progressmode and its all that matters pve pov.
6. Isn't this practically same question as 6. at least the answer is same.
7. What shadowtree does? In TBC it was mana mana mana (someone can link the song :P). Even in vanilla it was great manalongevity that shadow had. So all in all, shadow is spec that has plenty of mana and restores it to others as well. Dispersion fits for that "what is mana?" part of our class.

It seems you're either really blowing out of proportion Point 1 or you're missing the point. Neither Harb nor myself are saying anyone should just hit Dispersion immediately at cooldown and expect maximum efficiency of the ability. We were just saying the moment you really needed it for one of the three areas it can cover you lose it for the other two for 2 minute or a minute and fifteen seconds. You're correct that it awards good play and that is a positive factor about it, but having three very important details about a caster's quality of life all being maintained by one cooldown leads to a bit of rigidity in strategy.

Also, what mana efficiency are you talking about in Classic and TBC? I remember chugging mana potions and chomping on Dark Runes on cooldown while popping Shadowfiend at optimal timing on fights like Illidari Council. It wasn't until you got around a set of all ilvl 146+ did you start becoming self-sustaining.

[Kaesebrezen]

3. Multidotting leveling (thou cata will change that). dot multiple targets, pop dispersion, have 100% hp/mana. Feels good man.

Try that in deeplhome+. You're getting owned after dispersion ends.

Allow me.
1. It does. One can't spam it mindlessly to gain all benefits. Someone might get them all but that requires planning. I'm with everything that aint mindless spamming

Actually no. My 72k manapool lasted exactly until shadowfiend came off of CD once, and this is still with the 20 sec on S&P. Then i popped fiend again and dispersion and just as soon as i was oom again, my glyphed dispersion came off CD, while my fiend still had 1 min left...

This was still with 20 sec S&P, so in the next build you'd have to use dispersion even before the 1st fiend came off CD. And probably as soon as theres room for the 36% of mana, not any moment later.

I have to use a glyphed dispersion ON COOLDOWN to not run oom, raidbuffs may only change from glyphed dispersion to unglyphed. There is no "timing it", there is only "use it on cooldown". Especially with 10 sec S&P to come.

[Sharaki]

I have to use a glyphed dispersion ON COOLDOWN to not run oom, raidbuffs may only change from glyphed dispersion to unglyphed. There is no "timing it", there is only "use it on cooldown". Especially with 10 sec S&P to come.

Now that would suck

[Azyoulike]

Dispersion is fine, it's a lot more useful than Ele's Thunderstorm or Mage's Deep Freeze in PvE while also being pretty much required for PvP.

Erm, actually Deep Freeze does solid damage for PvE frost mages at least in live. Whether being a PvE frost mage is a good idea is another question - but if you are one you use the ghost-charge of FoF for deep freeze if it's up. Looking at a top frost mage parse it accounts for around 10% of their output on boss fights.

An instant cast that crits for 40k isn't terrible!

[Abandon]

Erm, actually Deep Freeze does solid damage for PvE frost mages at least in live. Whether being a PvE frost mage is a good idea is another question - but if you are one you use the ghost-charge of FoF for deep freeze if it's up. Looking at a top frost mage parse it accounts for around 10% of their output on boss fights.

An instant cast that crits for 40k isn't terrible!

To be fair, when they first released it and for most of the expansion, it did no damage to anyone.

[Tihr]

If you don't think Dispersion is worth the point, then don't take it. It means you're an idiot, but hey, it's your character.

[Deleted]

If we look back at the origin of Dispersion, it was created as a solution for Shadow Priests being GCD'd back in TBC. Pyro + PoM pyro. We all know. In the first iteration, it was without the shadow damage buff (it was also restoring 36% of max hp).

I believe dispersion was made due to the fact that shadowpriests running easily OOM in TBC.Ppl asked for an "evocation" type spell to regenerate mana.That is it. I can't imagine me running in 1st raids in wotlk without it.Now at the end is useless i agree too,but now everything it is just too easy.The purpose of the spell was to help in some long fights, as it was wotlk in the start when we didn't have imba gear etc.

PvPwise the spell was a defensive mech that again ppl asked of that.The thing back then was the eternal stunlock of rogues/MS in arena which they can't heal you effectively.Again mana regen was at stakes,i remember me countless times running oom in 3v3s/5s...now i don't that easily and i'm happy about it.

The point is...if they move it some tier back then it is 100% useful as helping in lvling also.
Or buff it with an extra feat:the % health regen,example, now they ve nerfed VE or 100% crit when we are in it that affects dots to make it do something for its loss of dps in pve too.
Solutions exist,the thing is will they be balanced or effective enough?

[Felade]

The problem with it is purely psychological. And the fact is, it *is* a dps increase on some fights. Like, oh, say, Sindragosa. Pure DPS upgrade no questions asked. If you ever take damage, ever in a raid, or if there was ever a patch of bad stuff that you would like to walk over to do more DPS, then it is a DPS upgrade. Marrowgar, Deathwhisper ghosts, Rotface slimes, Festergut pungent Blight, Lich King vile spirits and endless winter, Sindi Unchained Magic (maybe thats why I don't mind her scream so much - it signals the part of the fight where my DPS goes up significantly because of *Dispersion*), Twilight Cutters on Halion, Green Slime or all of p3 on Putricide, Empowered Flame on princes, the list goes on. Heck you can even use it to cheese frogger 1, 2, and 3.0.

If you don't think having a strong survivability cooldown on a relatively short timer along with some of the best baseline survivability (from shadowform, PW: Shield, and Vampiric Embrace) in the game is very good, then you probably should be playing a different class or spec. Go try a fury warrior and take 5% more damage from everything for awhile see how that works out for ya.

Dispersion is amazing. Sorry if you don't like it being in the top position.

I always thought of it like this: waaay back in the days of White Wolf games, there was a skill called Protean, a shapeshifting discipline. The final skill was to turn into mist and take no damage. It was awesome, and so is dispersion.

The mana return is incidental, and should remain so. Although, if you line it up with Shadowfiend, you pretty much get a full bar.

[Worshaka]

Hot potato atm in shadowpriest.com is dispersion as 31pt talent. There are arguments like "Why we don't have Vampiric Touch as 31pt talent" like arcane got AP moved there, that would be more iconic. "It's useless in PvE, if you play good you don't have any uses for it".

I think you just showed why the average wow player is bad... dispersion has many great uses for PvE and like normal the best thing any DPS class can do is stay alive.

I always get the names mixed up but Rotface or Festergut (the one with the spores), Dispersion is a flat DPS gain because you don't need to move for spores and can simply disperse the blight and cancel the effect moments later.

Dispersion can be used to great effect for sindragosa in lessning the impact of frost beacons.

With the length of the LK encounter I think any spriest would find it hard to manage their mana pool without using dispersion and it can be used during phase changes with out any loss to effective DPS. I've also used it to great effect when vile spirits spawn on me or next to me and fade is on CD as VE healing will generally pull aggro before a tank can taunt.

In any case, shadowform, VE & dispersion provide the spriest spec with a ton of survivability and it's one of the attributes of the class that I enjoy because it's the number one factor why raids don't progress. You need your DPS to stay alive not put up world record numbers. People really do forget that raiding is a team effort, not something to support their personal egos.

[zsun]

It seems you're either really blowing out of proportion Point 1 or you're missing the point. Neither Harb nor myself are saying anyone should just hit Dispersion immediately at cooldown and expect maximum efficiency of the ability. We were just saying the moment you really needed it for one of the three areas it can cover you lose it for the other two for 2 minute or a minute and fifteen seconds. You're correct that it awards good play and that is a positive factor about it, but having three very important details about a caster's quality of life all being maintained by one cooldown leads to a bit of rigidity in strategy.

Also, what mana efficiency are you talking about in Classic and TBC? I remember chugging mana potions and chomping on Dark Runes on cooldown while popping Shadowfiend at optimal timing on fights like Illidari Council. It wasn't until you got around a set of all ilvl 146+ did you start becoming self-sustaining.

Chances are, the moment you need it for one of the three areas it can cover is reason enough to hit the button. And chances are, during that moment you don't really need the other areas it can cover at that time. But, chances are, you will still get quite a lot of of the other areas it covers you despite you didn't need them.

Whenever I hit the button, it's always for an indirect DPS gain, trying to cheat the mechanics. And almost every single time I do hit this button, my mana is under 64%, but nowhere near OOM. So I still got the full mana benefit out of it. This, combined with other OH SHIT situations that causes you to hit the button doesn't come very early into the fight, and chances are your mana will be under 64% at when these situations occur. Even if you popped your fiend recently, you won't go OOM until Dispersion is ready again.

I personally use the Dispersion glyph, and that means if I wanted, I can get 36% mana every 75 seconds. This means I can really afford to pop Dispersion any time without having a second thought about what my mana is currently on (I'm not saying I actually pop the skill every 75 seconds, just saying that I can if I wanted).

Why I think it isn't good pinnacle talent? Where should I start (disclaimer, I'm certainly going to repeat some thought I've mentioned before. Don't read it if you don't want to. You have been warned .)

1) It does too many things at once.
Every time you hit the spell, you get both mana regen and damage reduction. But very often you need just one thing at the time. You either need mana or you want to survive the whatever_big_hit_is_coming. If I'm at situation where I need mana, I logically use Dispersion in order to get some. But I also waste my damage reduction which I would need somewhere in the future. Therefore I don't hit the spell, for "what if" reasons.

"Very often you need just one thing at the time" isn't really true. Refer to what I wrote above. In PvE encounters, You DON'T use it for either one thing or the other, you use it for ONE THING ONLY, and that is damage reduction, mana regen is secondary. You DONT use it for the pure sake of mana regen unless you literally have 0 mana. Using it for damage reduction with the mana regen wasted is understandable, but using it for mana regen with the damage reduction wasted is just stupid. Generally, using Dispersion at any time when your mana is 64% or under will give you the full mana benefit of this skill. Moreover, if you glyph the skill, you can simply afford to take mana for granted.

2) It doesn't create "yeah!" feeling when used for mana reasons.
Let's face it, we like doing damage, watching those yellow number pop up. So we also feel very unhappy, when we have to intentionally silence ourselves (loosing theoretical damage done) in order to receive mana. As 31-point talent, it doesn't create positive emotion when used, opposed to for example Metamorphosis, but rather makes us feel "I wish those 6 seconds were over already so I could restore doing my job".

At least you can create the feeling "Yeah I'm invincible for the next 6 seconds."
Seriously though, unless you are trying to create a world DPS record for a boss, you shouldn't be feeling this. Safety comes first in everything we do, even in this game.

3) Dispersion isn't lucrative talent enough for leveling Priests.
If I were leveling Fury Warrior, I would be tearing myself apart just for getting to the level where I would receive Titan's Grip. As soon as I put talent point in Titan's Grip, I instantly feel like a better Warrior. Same thing can be said about Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Bladestorm, Wild Growth, ect. But Dispersion doesn't make the leveling Priest feel any better Shadow Priest than he was one level before.

That I can hand it to ya, at least you can feel better about having to buy less mana drinks.

4) The talent doesn't have clear benefit in PvE.
It restores mana, which is something we have plenty (unless we have to constantly multi DoT). It reduces damage taken for 6 seconds which is very situational and last time the ability had any real impact on encounter was during Algalon progress. While any other 31-point talent is used almost every cooldown (with great result), ours feels rusty, without clear purpose or use. There will be no encounter requiring us using Dispersion for damage mitigation reasons in the future, this era is over. I've been raiding since BWL and with all my experience, I honestly don't see how one point in Dispersion could be benefical for me in Player vs. Environment.

The clear benefit in PvE is to
1. Cheat boss mechanics (this can have a HUGE effect on the fight sometimes)
2. Enables taking of certain shortcuts (such as going directly across a pool of slimes instead of around it)
3. Provides room for error (To err is human)
4. Survive emergency situations, such as getting unbound plague and gaseous bloat at the same time, sees the next person to pass the plague onto, runs towards them, only to realise that you've ran straight into a malleable goo coming from a camera angle that you couldn't see (this actually happened to me).
5. Less pressure on healers

Honestly this is a talent that has utility benefits rather than direct DPS gain (even though these utility benefits can also lead to indirect DPS gain), and these utility benefits affects other people in your raid (such as your healers). It's really the utility benefits that makes this talent unique.

No encounter actually REQUIRES you to use it, not even Algalon. It's up to you to decide when to use it in order to cheat the boss mechanics and provide some utility benefits for you and your raid. Keep in mind that our damage is balanced around NOT using dispersion to cheat boss mechanics. In fact it's not designed around Dispersion at all. Hence any indirect DPS gain from Dispersion is a bonus.

*Sarcasm* Just because a 31 point talent isn't used every CD doesn't make it a bad talent. It is in fact, Blizzard's way of telling us that players who plays priests are smarter because we are smart enough know when to best use our cooldowns...and yet you are arguing against that? *end sarcasm*

5) Dispersion doesn't reward PvE players for having talent point in it.
If you ask 2 Cataclysm Arcane mages, one with Arcane Power and one without, to dps a boss, after the kill, you will instantly notice which one doesn't have Arcane Power talent. This is something that cannot be said about Dispersion.

This can be said about Dispersion if the fight has a mechanic that can be avoided (or partially avoided) by using the spell, although this can't be said if the boss has no such mechanics. But like I said earlier, the 31 point talent doesn't always have to be a flat-out DPS benefit, utility benefits make huge difference as well.

6) Dispersion doesn't make the difference when used in PvE.
Compared to Unholy DK's Summon Gargoyle, you can almost instantly see the difference when used. In this case more dps. If we use Dispersion to survive a boss hit, something horrible is already going on and Dispersion most likely won't save it (it does, in one guild on one server once a year, first kill tanked by Shadow Priest, but meh). This concern is linked with nr. 2.

If you use Dispersion to survive a boss hit, doesn't always mean something has gone wrong. Again, like me and the other people suggested, Dispersion is used to cheat boss mechanics. I will say it again, cheating boss mechanics is a HUGE benefit, that outweighs talents like Starfall or Earthquake or Black Arrow. Most bosses in ICC has at least 1 mechanic that can be cheated with Dispersion.

7) Dispersion's functionality doesn't go in line with what the Shadow tree does.
We deal damage and we leech mana and life from others. Over time with shadows. Because Dispersion is the most expensive talent in the tree (it needs 30 points), we expect the talent to enhance and improve what we do. This can be said about every single other 31-point talent in the game. Except ours. When I invest 30 points in the tree, I expect the final talent to be real badass (Titan's Grip once again). Dispersion doesn't fulfill that feeling. Almost every single Protection Warrior would throw away their Shockwave and pick our Dispersion. Which is quite strange considering we deal damage and they are tanks.

Can't say much here except...It takes a lot of training in the Shadow spec in order to be one with the shadows, or to disperse into the shadows...during which you can attain immortality!...well for 6 seconds anyway.

[Worshaka]

We deal damage and we leech mana and life from others. Over time with shadows. Because Dispersion is the most expensive talent in the tree (it needs 30 points), we expect the talent to enhance and improve what we do. This can be said about every single other 31-point talent in the game. Except ours. When I invest 30 points in the tree, I expect the final talent to be real badass (Titan's Grip once again). Dispersion doesn't fulfill that feeling. Almost every single Protection Warrior would throw away their Shockwave and pick our Dispersion. Which is quite strange considering we deal damage and they are tanks.

I think it's obvious you don't read a lot of blues... it's been stipulated many many many times that just because something is a 31 (or 41, 51 point talent) doesn't imply it needs to be more powerful than any other talent in the tree. One of the main reasons for this was to keep power escalation under control... that means that on average the goal was to make every point invested in a tree worth a 1% performance increase.

An argument that it's an expensive talent is just simply irrelevant based on the design goal. You can argue the design goal is bad all you like, the fact is that's the goal and thats what we have to work with.

You have a better argument to suggest it's not iconic or not promoting the flavour of the spec but even that is an uphill argument. How you can suggest dispersing into a pool of shadow energy has nothing to do with the shadow tree and the shadow school of magic is beyond me. And you have a narrow view of the spec, we don't just leech life, we leech mana too. You might remember the orginal implementation of VT and dispersion certainly generates its fair share of mana. Not to mention that the shadow priest class is extremely hardy... dispersion provides another utility promoting survivability, well within the spec goals.

[Wrack]

This talent is great no doubt... but in pve ? as a masterpiece ?

I'm a bit deceived (well more than a bit as i'm 90% sure to move to my priest for roster reasons)

At least dispersing on my betagob makes me feel bigger...

[Mosdeph]

Just move Dispersion down the tree and give us a new abiity that lets us leap through the air, leech onto the back of the mobs and go all Edward Cullens on some mobs asses. During which time it takes X% more damage or something, and make it only usable when the mobs under 25% health. It'd be sweet right?? Call it Twilight o.O

Started as a joke but that sounds pretty cool. I mean Spriest are pretty utilitarian already, It would be a % buff to damage, per sa, but not their damage So no balancing issues.

Just imagine it...
RL:"___________________ Pop Twilight!!1!"
(insert shady priest name here)

Comments GO!
btw not a twilight fan

[fizikz]

I think the talent will become a lot more useful once heroics are harder and healer mana actually matters.

[Kaesebrezen]

I think the talent will become a lot more useful once heroics are harder and healer mana actually matters.

I think without dispersion, your own manapool would be gone after 1,5-2 mins....
It's not a damage reduction cooldown with the sideeffect of regen some mana.
It's a mana cooldown with an very, very rare sideeffect of negating damage.

[zsun]

I think the talent will become a lot more useful once heroics are harder and healer mana actually matters.

Yes indeed, but even then the Dispersion would be used between pulls, not during combat. This topic has mostly been about using Dispersion during combat.

I think without dispersion, your own manapool would be gone after 1,5-2 mins....
It's not a damage reduction cooldown with the sideeffect of regen some mana.
It's a mana cooldown with an very, very rare sideeffect of negating damage.

Not sure about Cata, but in the current ICC content, I'd still regard it as a damage reduction cooldown with a secondary mana regen effect. There are plenty of chances in ICC to use it for damage reduction, so I wouldn't exactly call the effect of damage reduction "rare" either. I refer back to my previous post in this topic regarding Dispersion being mostly used as a ticket to cheat boss mechanics rather than used to gain mana.

[Kelesti]

Not sure about Cata, but in the current ICC content, I'd still regard it as a damage reduction cooldown with a secondary mana regen effect. There are plenty of chances in ICC to use it for damage reduction, so I wouldn't exactly call the effect of damage reduction "rare" either. I refer back to my previous post in this topic regarding Dispersion being mostly used as a ticket to cheat boss mechanics rather than used to gain mana.

There are a few things to bring up, in regards to your long mana pool now, directly compared to Cataclysm.

One: Lower base mana cost, higher intellect. We were supposed to be in 245 gear, not 277. Having a bigger mana pool means higher replenishment (and even Meditation) than intended. This will not be the case for Cataclysm.
Two: Replenishment is getting nerfed to half of its value. Meditation is gone. Shadowfiend's Mana Return was dumped down to 3% instead of 5%.
Three: Contrary to popular belief, Shadowfiend does not have an 80% uptime. Expect about 14-18%.
And four: You can get through most fights (with the exception of Bane/Light, and heroic Halion) without using Dispersion for mana, simply because they're over faster than you can spend the mana. Don't expect this to be the case.

So between smaller gains from Shadowfiend, Masochism which may or may not be rotational, and a nerfed Replenishment in a higher base mana environment, Dispersion suddenly becomes a major source of a blue bar.

In reality, one should be grateful they can move (and take less damage) for a mana ability. Evocate sucks.

[Kaesebrezen]

In reality, one should be grateful they can move (and take less damage) for a mana ability. Evocate sucks.

I'd rather evocate every for mins and with my manapool < 40% than dispersion as soon as i hit 60% and every 2 mins after that.

[Kelesti]

I'd rather evocate every for mins and with my manapool < 40% than dispersion as soon as i hit 60% and every 2 mins after that.

Because every fight is Patchwerk?

The second you have to move, Evocation is ruined. For FOUR minutes. Any damage taken makes Evocate restore less mana than Dispersion, thanks to the glory of spell pushback.

Dispersion is a much better source of mana. Reliable, allows you to move, and has a survival ability tagged right in.

[Kaesebrezen]

Because every fight is Patchwerk?

Because in no fight you can stand still for 6 seconds? Evocation is only ruined if you're to dumb to use it.

Any damage taken makes Evocate restore less mana than Dispersion, thanks to the glory of spell pushback.

Get your palas to use Conc aura or shammies to drop the totem...

Dispersion is a much better source of mana. Reliable, allows you to move, and has a survival ability tagged right in.

And how often to you get the mana reg and surviveability together if you need dispersion on CD to not go oom?

A good mage knows when to use evocation for it's maximum effect, every dumb shadowpriest can use dispersion and still have the maximum effect...