What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata!

[Anagra]

Hence those heroics and normal mode raids, which, as I said, are THE GAME for most of the playerbase, are very relevant to your own activities and the well-being of both your guild and the raiding game that you play - but the reverse is not true. Your clique of elite raiders, although very visible to you, are a drop in the ocean, and the bosses you pull have no impact on the overwhelming majority.

Agree with above !

All the QQ around hard modes is off' topic, since this post is a reminder about common sense that have been lost during WotLK due to few factors, and an alert regarding the fact that blizz seem to bring back a type of game'play where the widespread moron will have a harder time,
the things from this post are valid for all players from grunt to warlord, have nothing to do with elitist hard content ...

Now .... while i look with some respect to players who achieve victories against hard modes, i am totally annoyed by the overall arrogance of this ppl, if suddenly Blizz would decide to eliminate hard content, and they would make the content just more diverse in more ways so players not get bored, and all elitist players would quit, Blizz wouldn't even really feel this ppl's absence ...

Elite players who are a really small minority give way to much importance to themselves, and become more annoying when they keep begging for attention reminding the rest of players how strong they are, while actually not many really care ... like in this tread, where they had to start annoying us with vanilla, bc, swp, lk with 5% or 348767687 % ... bah /puke ...

I did some hard content like swp and some wotlk hms, and wasn't actually fun ... way to much effort to put in a game including dedicated timeframes, and all the socialising with all those nerds;
a game i started to have fun and relax, ... that turned to be my second career.

Would love Blizzard to make few hard'mode realms, and then we the rest majority grunts never to hear about all eSport freaks.

There are way more ppl that some can imagine who are capable to play this things, but who doesn't bother,
while some freaks get in'game achievements, others get achievements RL, stronger "curiculum vitae", earn fat money,build businesses,
and play relax mode for fun and entertainment.

This game is a mmo, you can't expect to gather millions of players who want to be elite players...
would be ridiculous, would mean humanity went insane ... this is a game, really.

( sorry for potential spelling errors )

[Ozteck]

This is a terrific post. WolK's cobwebs have certainly put a malaise on the overall population. I fully expect a rude, and very much welcomed, awakening in a couple weeks.

Cheers, to all the old timers who like me anxiously await the return of skill and accomplishment!

[Brakthir]

It's a self congratulatory post, full of common sense. Most of what he said applies to almost any video game (Don't be bad.). It's general knowledge. Why it deserves it's own thread and a bump I don't know.

---------- Post added 2010-11-29 at 10:14 PM ----------

This is a terrific post. WolK's cobwebs have certainly put a malaise on the overall population, I fully expect a rude, and very much welcomed, awakening in a couple weeks.

Cheers, to all the old timers who like me anxiously await the return of skill and accomplishment!

Hey, old timer. There is more skill required in Wrath than in BC or Vanilla. You just actually need to do the hard content.

[bbr]

Amusing how your signature got the "bandwidth exceeded" image pretty much as soon as this got onto the front page


Nice guide though, shall bookmark it for further reading and sharing later on.

[Ozteck]

It's a self congratulatory post, full of common sense. Most of what he said applies to almost any video game (Don't be bad.). It's general knowledge. Why it deserves it's own thread and a bump I don't know.

---------- Post added 2010-11-29 at 10:14 PM ----------



Hey, old timer. There is more skill required in Wrath than in BC or Vanilla. You just actually need to do the hard content.

I would disagree slightly, in that a guild's progression would just STOP. If you couldn't do the BC content (pre-nerf), SSC and later Hyjal would be "forever" locked. I don't think there has been a fight since BC that took as much pure teamwork (regardless of class becuase of: dual cube clicking teams and acid throwing packs) as pre-nerf Magtheridon, and later Lady Vashj. If you couldn't do the Vanilla content, you were stuck at Vael.

[Deepone]

I fully expect a rude, and very much welcomed, awakening in a couple weeks.

Hey, old timer. There is more skill required in Wrath than in BC or Vanilla. You just actually need to do the hard content.

You understand that the poster said "a couple of weeks," right? Who do you think will already be up and running doing raids, much less hard modes by then? Sure, a handful of guilds, but they're the ones that have already been doing the content on beta. We've wandered in and out of talking about raiding, here, but most of the thread is focused on the stuff you're going to hit on DAY ONE... things like trash in normal mode instances that will wipe you all over the floor if you try to take it on like a Wrath AoE-fest where you can just ignore that red, fire-looking thing under your feet...

As for Wrath being hard... I've heard people say they think HLK or HYS were harder than C'Thun, but I've heard a lot of folks say the opposite. We'll never have a side-by-side comparison, but I don't think you can just say that Wrath raiding hard-modes were harder than vanilla without some justification. Are you comparing just the complexity of the fights? Are you including the prep required or the micro-managing of class lineups required in vanilla? TBC raids were... interesting. The hardest raids were really the middle ones and SW, not BT, so it's a bit hard to compare where the BT equivalent in Wrath was actually very hard to finish on hard mode until the buffs got high enough to allow most raiding guilds to eventually work it out.

[Brakthir]

I don't consider retarded required class compositions and grinding world buffs to be part of a difficult fight. SWP required an inordinate amount of shamans and warlocks for a guild to be successful and it played raid tetris like nothing before it.

[Sinnaa]

How... enlightened. BTW, do you not know how to edit quotes or do you just not care if anyone can tell what it is that you're responding to?

This somehow shocks you? I've never met a player who knew when or how to use their trinkets after hitting max-level on their first toon. Ever. If you tell me that you did, I'm not going to believe you. Mind you, we had a better excuse when the cap was 60... after all, we'd just gotten our first trinket in the late 40s at the earliest, and if I recall correctly that might not have had an on-use... the first on-use trinket might have been from BRD.

I came from EQ, so I knew a fair about raiding to start, but I had SO MUCH to learn... I still learn more every time I play.

Most people who hit max level melee don't know how much movement affects their DPS, how to find out why their DPS is low, etc. Most people who hit max level don't know what bloodlust is, much less what they should be doing in response. Most people who hit max level don't know which flask, food (not really an issue now, though) or pots they should be using. Most people who hit max level don't know the various caps they have to hit. It's all information that you and I picked up so long ago that it seems like it sprang into our heads all at once. In reality we probably took just as long to pick it all up as the new guys you're upset about.

Certainly not right now. LFD fosters poor performance and tolerance of it.

No. Definitely not. I've never been able to piece together the optimum rotation from a target dummy, and given the months of arguing back-and-forth that you'll see on EJ about 4.0.x, if you tell me that you did, I will once again disbelieve you.

Rotation (there really aren't any rotations anymore, but that's a semantic issue) is the second hardest problem in WoW right now. The hardest problem is Mastery (worst case of which I've seen is BM hunter whose mastery increases pet DPS... good lord, the math on reforging is absurdly complicated!)

People who think hard problems are easy usually make me wonder if they know as much as they think they do.

If that's true, then my hat's off to you...



Not nearly as much as they did in 3.x.



I took quite a bit of time to draw a distinction between hard and complex. If you're going to ignore that, there's no point in responding to the rest of your comment.

Just one more point:

Welcome to almost doing your job.

CBF spending my time to edit quotes when i can just quote your whole thing and laugh at it all...

You are talking the difference between good a great with every single comment about trinkets and cd's and etc. Most people cant even get to good so stop talking as if they are already there please, cause they aren't. Besides, who the fuck has on-use trinkets anymore? Best in slot trinkets are all equip effects, minus a few here or there. Granted, a lot of people aren't good enough to get them i guess, even though blizzard hands out gear now.

Most people at this point are alt's if they are just hitting 80. I think in the last year 2 years there has been an increase in subs of 1 mil. I would venture a guess that a portion of those are also people who already have an account and are creating second ones to RAF/Get mount. And you don't need to know what hero is to know what you are supposed to be doing. Thats a buff that is there to help you do what you do even better and in some cases slightly alters rotations (which do still exist for DPS).

As far as LFG/LFD goes.... learn to make a 5 man group of people in bad gear. I believe i said this. Use it as a way to learn the game and don't make excuses that you can't do it in dungeons because they are really geared people blowing everything up. That is just being lazy and waiting for someone else to do the work for you. Basically, instead of building a group, these people wait until they are in a raid and then waste a bunch of peoples times via wipes/poor performance.

WTF class that do you play (pally, i already know) that you can't "piece" together an optimal rotation on a dummy. Are you too stupid to figure out that when you use 1 button 50 times vs another button 50 times that one of them does better? Its called trying it multiple times and going for long enough that you get an average reading that takes out variance (i usually go somewhere between 5-10 million and do it at least 3 times when im trying something), Let me guess, you rarely do more than 1 million damage on a test run of dps? And even if dummies are all messed up atm, you can still get a reading on what you are doing. No matter what the outcome, as long as you stay on the same dummy, the reading means the same thing "either this worked better or that worked better."

Rotations, as I said, exist. If you cant find yours, you havent looked. Granted a lot of rotations are moving towards priority, but there is still and underlying rotation.
Combat rogue: ss and get snd, then rupture. After that, keep them up, while using evisc when you have plenty of uptime on both...
mut rogue: get rupture up, get snd up, then mut spam and envenom spam while keeping snd up
basic boomkin: Wrath until eclipe then moonfire till eclipse, using starfall when up, starsurge when proced, and keeping insect swarm and moonfire/sunfire up.

want me to do more?

Maybe, its not that people are making easy things hard, maybe its that you either dont understand it, or you just arent smart enough to know the easy way. Sure, there are a lot of specifics that go into each class, but you know what, there are tons of really good posts on every single class. It tells you exactly what you need and when you need it and how to get it. Do a little homework imo. Granted, 4.0.x has made that more challenging because the whole game changes... but its not like a lot of what i say didnt apply before 4.0.x. Example, shadowmourne dk getting 8-10th place on bosses to people in 100-500 gs less...

You REALLY cant figure out the basics of a class in 80 levels? I dont mean the top dps rotation and stats and etc... i mean enough to have a decent idea of what to do and where to go with your gearing/stats? Do you honestly not know how to google or do any work on the classes you play? This is what i am talking about. I know what my spec is going to be well before i cap. I know what my stats are going to need to be, etc. Its called research, try it next time you level.

I know what you said about a distinction between hard and complex... i dont think wow is complex at all when looked at as a single player. When you take into account all raid dynamics, sure, maybe a LITTLE complex... but that is even pushing it. What is so complex about it? You have all the numbers, you have a list of where everything is, you have a list of what you can do (this is all assuming you know how to google which i am starting to think you dont), etc etc etc. Takes a lot of the complexity of the game when you do. within minutes of released changes, people already have decent ideas about how the changes will affect them... so with all that goes on in the game, its actually relatively simple...im still waiting to hear what your job is... flipping burgers? cause yea, maybe playing wow is a little more complex than that.

and the final point, that is the main responsibility of a dps... staying alive while hitting the boss. Thats what it all really boils down to and as much as you want to fancy it up in to some fancy thing, it still is dodging shit while hitting a boss (aka spamming buttons). I've been in the 18-20k range in dps and you can't change my mind that the basics of melee dps is standing and stabbing.

The reason i keep speaking in generalities here is because the people im talking about can't even do the simple stand and stab. Spending 10 min to talk them isn't going to do shit. If you really wanna "fix" a baddie, its gonna take a hell of a lot longer than 10 min. Its going to take 10 min just to explain why keyboard turning is fail... probably and hour to explain why clicking is bad... I once had a healer swear by his life he could outheal me with clicking... i tripled his healing and he still didnt believe me. Some people are destined to be bad, so let them be bad and just say screw it. The game has changed, its not vanilla anymore. Change with it or GTFO imo. There needs to be greater divides between bads and people worth a damn. I am tired of getting into ICC with 30% and failing after 5-6 bosses because people in 6.4k gs can only do 8k dps because they never learned how on their own and blizzard just handed them gear. I am not gonna take my time to try and teach someone who hasnt even tried to do shit on their own. Most these people who can't dodge, be in range of a boss (really? thats difficult??), etc probably never looked up the fight, never looked up their class, and never tried to figure anything out on their own. They asked a few people like you in game what to do and you gave them shit advice and thought you improved them. But you know what, they are still bads.

No comment about coming to BR and teaching these people? come on, dont talk about it, be about it.....

holy shit i just wrote a novel..... be less bad so i dont have to school you so much please

[Slyan]

It wasn't too long in my opinion. Good post, hopefully MANY MANY MANY people will read this and it'll help people improve before the leveling and dungeon hell begins. Already the dungeon groups from 1-80 are still pathetically "ZERG GOOGOGOGOGOPULLPULLFASTER GOOGOGO PULL BIG FASTER AOE SPAM GOOOO!!!!!" My mage TRIES to CC but noone cares they just spam away even when its a horrible idea. -sigh- I expect many "whelps" left and right and lots of death.

[Deleted]

Love the post, so much truth in it too, I do predict a massive QQ fest from people dying to normal quest mobs at lvl 84 even, dont even want to think about what heroics will do to the self entitled wrath raiding heroes.

[Suggs]

What Wrath players need to know to not suck a Cata....................

...................dont use gearscore anymore, not only will it make you think your the most elitist player on the server but at the same time make you look like a dick and play like one because you base your playstyle off numbers rather than actual skill.

[Sprinkles29]

So, 10 people or so in my guild who are currently raiding also raided in vanilla. I posed them the question "Was Vanilla harder than Wrath?" and they all burst out laughing. So apparently working around bad class mechanics, filling raids with 40 people and hoping encounters weren't bugged were the hardest parts of Vanilla raiding.
As far as BC goes, Black Temple was a joke. Spending one night on Bloodboil and RoS was a joke. We spent 2-3 on Council. Illidan was the only one remotely close to a challenge. SWP was hard, but the hardest part of SWP was raid tetris, as our GM stated. Going from 5 healers to 7 to 11 to 5 while stacking shamans and warlocks and rogues were the hardest parts apparently.

Try some of the MC raids. Pulling 5 or so bosses apart and tanking them separately, using different dps on each and killing them in order? Directing 40 people? That was hard. What I have learned from Vanilla has left lasting "tools" in my tool box. I walked into any HoA, ICC and was able to dps/heal/tank it without prior knowledge of fights. Alot of the "tricks" where identical to bosses I had seen before. And yes...if it was flamey or icey on the ground I moved. Something as simple as that is like brain surgery for people now. I wish the OP could be in lue of the WoW Terms and Condition we have to sign when Cata comes out...

And I'm not blaming all of this on "newbies" I think alot of old schoolers who have nice gear are now used to blowing through stuff.

[Sentreenay]

to tired to read it all but seems nice and should as people have sed stickeyd.
btw did you add anything about not aoeing the moment the tank steps anywhere near a trach group evan when sed tank is out of range ?

[Brakthir]

Clearly you haven't seen some of the council fights in Wrath then. They all involve pulling bosses apart and killing in order.

[Evolixe]

It wasn't too long in my opinion. Good post, hopefully MANY MANY MANY people will read this and it'll help people improve before the leveling and dungeon hell begins. Already the dungeon groups from 1-80 are still pathetically "ZERG GOOGOGOGOGOPULLPULLFASTER GOOGOGO PULL BIG FASTER AOE SPAM GOOOO!!!!!" My mage TRIES to CC but noone cares they just spam away even when its a horrible idea. -sigh- I expect many "whelps" left and right and lots of death.

Thats exactly the reason i will refuse to LFD in cataclysm until it is faceroll again. And yes, it will be faceroll again.

[Vmaster]

Daetur, thank you for a well thought out and informative post that many people can (re)learn from. I've shared this information with my guild.

To the minority of people that are posting that the OP is just common sense, useless or for n00bs, well, I can just envision these same people failing horribly at cataclysm, and causing their groups to wipe over and over again.

If you think the information posted is of no use to you, that's fine, just skip to the next thread. Don't be an jerk elitist about it and try to shove your ego-inflated opinions down people's throats. No one cares for it.

[InNYC]

I joined (lurked forevah) to respond to this thread. In the last 12+ months I was sure the players had changed this game forever. When Halls of Reflection, Pit and Forge were added I couldn't understand why DPS kept nuking spell reflecting mobs (sometimes until they died), tanks wouldn't let caster mobs be shackled (while they ate our healer alive) or players would quit if we didn't only fight the Falric/Marwyn waves in that corner. I brought old skool thinking to the new world of pretend teams. My bad. Maybe Cata will be an equalizer (or force people to guild) and the player who doesn't even bring a potion will leave. A girl can dream...

[Brakthir]

I'm an awesome player.

[Anagra]

Still some ppl keep talking about what when was harder ... so out of topic.

[ohlins]

I'm an awesome player.

I'm an awesome driver, but then again everybody thinks they are awesome.