Feral Tanks, Tell Me I'm Not the Only One...

[PHILtheTANK]

Okay, so let me clarify even more... Yes Agi > Str and... Yes Agi gives dodge, BUT any "tanking gear" i.e. gear with str+stam that a warrior,pally,dk uses has way more stam than any agi gear (plate class usually have more stam). So using a "tanking" trinket/neck/clock/ring is fine if you're buffing for HP and not avoidance.

Example: What be tank used the Ashen Verdict dps ring with agi over the one with str+stam that also gave a tanking proc?

This, i beleive, is wrong. This may ahve been true in wotlk, but its not true anymore. Agility gear has been buffed to have basically the same stam as the strength tanking gear, so the reason you would choose the tanking gear is for a buff to dodge/mastery as opposed to crappily itemized agility items.

[Daetur]

Okay, so let me clarify even more... Yes Agi > Str and... Yes Agi gives dodge, BUT any "tanking gear" i.e. gear with str+stam that a warrior,pally,dk uses has way more stam than any agi gear (plate class usually have more stam). So using a "tanking" trinket/neck/clock/ring is fine if you're buffing for HP and not avoidance.

Example: What be tank used the Ashen Verdict dps ring with agi over the one with str+stam that also gave a tanking proc?

Except that gone are the days of huge stam, and the days of mitigation being better have returned, as I understand it.

Your 'example' includes and item with a tanking PROC. Therefore, it falls under the same category as tanking trinkets and is an outlier in the regular statci-stat gear discussion. An item that falls away from the norm should not be used as an example of the whole. Of course there will be exceptions when procs are involved.

Also, let's take a look at Strength and Agility rings that drop fro the same level of content, shall we?

BLACKWING DESCENT:

Lightning Conductor Band
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped
Finger
+190 Agility
+286 Stamina
Requires Level 85
Item Level 359
Equip: Increases your hit rating by 127 (2.86% @ L85).
Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 127 (1.92% @ L85).

Bile-O-Tron Nut
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped
Finger
+136 Strength
+286 Stamina
Requires Level 85
Item Level 359
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 190 (2.91% @ L85).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 111 (10.01 @ L85).

[hayharut]

sounds like you had a lazy healer

[darxide]

Bears still generally use tank trinkets/rings/necks.

Please actually know about what you're talking about before making yourself look like an ignorant moron. Agility rings/neck/cloaks are now far, FAR superior for bears than str/dodge items. Trinkets are another story and very case-by-case.

And before any more of you short-bus "geniuses" tries to argue the str/dodge tank gear vs agi gear, please read: http://www.manaflask.com/Aryu/blog/5267/

[jaxus]

I've been getting gear w/ both str and agi. Typically yes, the str gear has dodge, but the agi also is dodge, so if it's 100 agi vs. 100 str, the attack power is the same, and the dodge rating and agi typically offset as well.

I actually have been looking at the agi gear as a higher priority since, if a piece has str/stam/dodge/mastery, and another piece has agi/stam/mastery, the fourth stat will usually be something like crit/haste, which, if the agi makes the dodge and str a wash, makes said piece of gear better.

At this point, in 5 mans, all the str/stam gear has the exact same amount of stamina as comparative ilevel agi/stam gear.

In other words, it's a wash people. Sorry kids are bad and don't understand it. We have only 16% more HP in bear form than cow form. It's no longer some huge advantage. Healing is harder in Cata, so is tanking. Kids need to understand this and not freak out and start kicking kids. Hopefully your next experience isn't as bad.

[kATTEKONGEN]

I know that feeling, ignore them, queue again, wait 10sec, get into another better grp.

[Lansow]

Okay, so let me clarify even more... Yes Agi > Str and... Yes Agi gives dodge, BUT any "tanking gear" i.e. gear with str+stam that a warrior,pally,dk uses has way more stam than any agi gear (plate class usually have more stam). So using a "tanking" trinket/neck/cloak/ring is fine if you're buffing for HP and not avoidance.

Example: What bear tank used the Ashen Verdict dps ring with agi over the one with str+stam that also gave a tanking proc?

It may have been that way before, but in Cata things have changed. Previous posters were correct when they stated a bear tank should only be wearing str/stam pieces when they are gearing for EH and it is several item levels higher than their agi/stam gear.

There are many threads out there on this subject. A new expansion brings changes, and the requirement to relearn what you knew before. Research, research, research.

*caveat* Tanking rings, trinkets, necks are sometimes superior. Current BiS bear back is a str/sta piece as well, wrap of the great turtle.

[Deleted]

Strength is strictly worse than Agility for Bears. Only reason you'd ever touch strength piece is because its other stats or a proc is a lot better than the equivalent Agility piece (or there is no equivalent Agility piece).

Specifically (source: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110357-...aft_rawr_bear/):

@85:
Str = 2 AP (maybe present on tank jewelry or back items though)
Agi = 2 AP while in Cat or Bear Form, 1% Physical Crit per 324.85, 1% Dodge (pre-DR) per 243.5828108
Dodge (1%) = 176.71899 rating
Crit (1%) = 179.28 rating

Crit is very useful at low levels of gear for a Bear because of this:

Savage Defense Passive
Requires Bear Form
Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 35% of your attack power.

So, yes, with str+dodge gear you will get two raw stats. But with agi+crit gear you gain the same AP, plus more than 72% of the equivalent dodge and more than 55% of the equivalent crit. Having a large uptime on your Mastery via Savage Defence procs is more useful than simply have an enormous Mastery which procs only very occassionally.

This is Cata not WotLK - the problem is healer's going OOM during a pull keeping you and the group up, not worries that you as a tank will have to be getting one or two-shot by boss-like hits.

Note. This makes Bear tanks a bit different from other tanks in that stacking pure Mastery+Stam is not nessarily the best way at all (what you want is a high uptime on Mastery/Savage Defence). But you cannot go wrong with Agility.

[Slavko]

There are many threads out there on this subject. A new expansion brings changes, and the requirement to relearn what you knew before. Research, research, research.

*caveat* Tanking rings, trinkets, necks are sometimes superior. Current BiS bear back is a str/sta piece as well, wrap of the great turtle.

Yes, a new expansion brings plenty of new things to learn, and I feel that more people should research their class as well (including me).

In regards to the OP: I see a lot of tanks not using cds when they can. Including stuns, demo roar/shout, disarms, potting, WoG or any other helpful cd you have. It sucks when people don't pay attention. I have all 4 classes of tank and know how bad it can be.

Everyone else on the OMG! STR vs. AGI: Regardless of what the IDEAL or BiS item is, most of us, if not all of us, are still trying to get whatever gear we can so that we can do heroics and have the stats to raid. We are not going to have our choice of gear as instances simply take a lot longer than they did in WotLK, so farming for that cloak/trinket/helm w/e will be harder. Basically if the avoidance, ET, or EH is about the same then w/e a bear can use str. Most tanking gear can be judged on a case by case basis by a good tank, and requires that said individual has knowledge of their play style (i.e. will this be better for the way I want to tank?).

Feel free to continue to berate me on the subject of NEVER USE STR for a bear unless its a PROC or feel free to chat with me and teach/learn new content.

[exochaft]

Well, this thread has seemed to diverge into two different directions.

To the OP: ignorant people are ignorant, plain and simple. I tend to do guild-only runs because a sizable portion of the WoW community is stuck in WotLK. At least as a tank, the queues are short, so the loss is minimal in some respects.

Concerning STR vs AGI: Agility is always going to be better than strength for a bear, plain and simple. Stamina values are a non-issue, since every piece of gear was normalized. It comes down to secondary stats, in all honesty. The agi pieces tend to favor crit/haste, and the strength pieces tend to favor hit/exp (this isn't gospel, just a generalization). Now, hit/exp are nice for threat, but in all honesty, even in the current raiding content, single-target tank threat is so good that you don't worry about it beyond the first 10 seconds, and due to how the hit table works, increasing your hit/exp values will not increase your chance to crit. Crit/haste does increase the chance and/or frequency that SD will proc, even though haste generally gets reforged if necessary... however, these stats increase your survivability a lot more than hit/exp.

If we're talking about dodge rating vs the dodge agi yields, at worst they yield the same avoidance. However, even if the avoidance is the same, the benefits of agility are far superior to dodge rating (it's a primary stat, it should be better). However, if the STR item is far superior to an AGI item, by all means use the STR item. When the items are comparable, it's better to opt for agility. Long story short: STR items are viable for druid tanks, but AGI items are generally preferred.

[AetherMcLoud]

How can people STILL be so dumb? It's like those people in wrath screaming at my deathknight tank to put on a shield or GFTO of the dungeon.

[Kagonos]

Okay, so let me clarify even more... Yes Agi > Str and... Yes Agi gives dodge, BUT any "tanking gear" i.e. gear with str+stam that a warrior,pally,dk uses has way more stam than any agi gear (plate class usually have more stam). So using a "tanking" trinket/neck/cloak/ring is fine if you're buffing for HP and not avoidance.

Example: What bear tank used the Ashen Verdict dps ring with agi over the one with str+stam that also gave a tanking proc?

Actually, with 4.0, the agi ring was better itemized for a bear tank. I wasn't asking if I'm wearing the right gear because I know that I already am. In cataclysm agility is a clear winner over str in every way possible. The loss in stam is negligible when you compare the crit/dodge/AP that you gain from the agility. RE: my trinkets/gear, I'm working with what I have had drop so far in the whole week that cata has been out and trust me, I have run Halls of Origination at least 6 timers trying for the bracers off the first boss and they have not dropped. Besides the agi trinket I have is pretty beast for a tank. I may start gearing for stam, but honestly with the low dodge we have after the adjusted ratings, I feel I need more avoidance right now. Also, if you suggest that the tanking pieces (ie: STR/STAM with dodge/mastery, etc) have more stam than the DPS pieces with AGI/STAM, I'd like to see this because I present to you: Razor-Edged Cloak VS Twilight Dragonscale Cloak.

This is not intended to be a gear critique, though I do welcome the well-intended suggestions, so don't think I'm jumping on you guys for the tips you offered! I just wanted to know if I was going to have to teach every single uneducated healer in my group that "I WEAR AGILITY GEAR! I reforge to mastery NOT dodge, and I KNOW WHAT THE FUCK I AM DOING THANK YOU VERY MUCH! =)" Since I'm posting on the druid forums, I know you guys are in my corner, so thank you!

[tushn]

Kagonos: Dodge is more valuable then mastery, so reforge haste and other lesser valuable stats to dodge.

[luvlist]

according to my character screen.. my Str is always half of what my AP is in bear form. so i believe str still gives you 2 AP in bear.. eventhough it also gives you agi 1 : 1 AP

[AetherMcLoud]

Yes, as far as I know, STR still gives you 2 AP, but nothing else. AGI gives you 1 AP, crit and dodge. I think they removed getting +armor from agi sadly.

[valiorik]

Bears still generally use tank trinkets/rings/necks.

Only trinkets. Rings and neck is better to get with agility and reforge one of their stat to dodge. Any other tank stat(parry, block) from tank rings are waste for bear.

[antiviolenc3]

Yes, as far as I know, STR still gives you 2 AP, but nothing else. AGI gives you 1 AP, crit and dodge. I think they removed getting +armor from agi sadly.

Agility grants AP, Crit, and Dodge. No longer grants Armor.
1 Agi = 2.5 AP
1 Agi = 0.0030783% Crit
324.85 Agi = 1% Crit
1 Agi = 0.0041054% Dodge
243.58 Agi = 1% Dodge

Strength grants plain attack power.
1 Str = 2.5 AP

Agi is still the greater stat for bears I guess.

EDIT- To OP: I got that a few times too but told them if they didn't believe that bears actually use cat gears with stam enchants/gems then they can go ahead and waste 15mins of their time to queue for a new tank. (Yes, sounds a little arrogant but thats the truth :S)

[valiorik]

So I was doing a random heroic Vortex Pinnacle, I have no classes that can CC elementals, so the first half of this place I know is going to be a little rough and kill order is going to be paramount. I start marking everything after explaining the kill order and we start pulling. We get through the first pulls with no deaths, I do notice that I'm taking a fair amount of dmg, but I'm using barkskin and even survival instincts when things get hairy. I mean it's only a 3 minute CD so why NOT use it, right? Anyways, we get to the first boss, Grand Vizier Ertan and I type out a quick explanation for a guy who asked. When I look at the chat log I notice that the healer has said, "Kagonos, you have no tank gear." About 10 seconds later a load screen pops up and I am back in Stormwind.

Never happened to me, however I was only few times without a premaid group. Probably just random noob.

[nerthus]

Sounds odd to me.

I've been doing a couple of heroics as a healer and have had two bears tanking for me . I absolutely loved them. They took way less damage than any other tank I've had with about the same amount of cc. Did not check their gear though, so no idea what they were using. I just know that I would do anything to keep a bear if I could.

[Deleted]

Sticking with proper Feral gear, none of this STR nonsense. I'm noticing my dodge rating increasing much further as a result of more Agility even after replacing items that had lots of dodge rating on them.

As for your unfortunate run in with a noob group, I feel your pain. I'm lucky that all dungeons I'm running first with my 3-4 guild mates so that I understand them all so that if someone kicks a fuss, it's only coz they are a noob who doesn't understand ferals rather than my mistakes! But man seriously the "dude that's not tank gear guy".......what a moron, I hope Cata's increased difficulty rids us of these idiots fresh out of Wrath of the AOE Noob King!