Why do people keep dismissing PvP gear?

[Jalek]

It's really not that hard to undertstand is it.

If the increase in primary stats from the 4pc and the extra ilevels outweighs the secondary stats it's an increase.

As a ret pally Str >>>>>every secondary stat even when not hit/expertise capped.

You also have to consider the gloves bonus too which for a ret is +5% CS dmg which is pretty damn good for PVE

[QQingshaman]

Okay, one more time...
The stat WEIGHTS (the value of stats relative to other stats) are as I described, the relative weight of strength of the scenario the Op presented was 2.5, and the VALUE of the other stats relative to that was about .9. Make sense?!

you are both wrong, the value for each thing is entirely dependent on the spec... that stuff about str = 2.5 and the combat ratings u cited from ej are stat budgeting...
ie how much of a stat = 1 ilvl which im pretty sure is not the right value

[Tarin]

The hypocrisy in this statement just blew my mind. Look at my maths one page back and you will see what I'm referring to.

I'm going to assume your "maths" was either a typo or a lame attempt at trying to be ironic, but that's beside the point. Your math is completely botch, because you can't just throw out random numbers, do some half-assed algebra, and expect there to be a cult following bowing to your supreme intelligence above simulations that calculate every single detail to the dot and say that there are a whole bunch of cases where PvP gear is superior to the PvE gear you get from heroics.

And that's just bloodthirsty vs. heroic ilevel. Vicious gear is incredibly easy to get, and usually superior even on an individual piece basis.

[mikklas]

Why do certain people keep whining about people using pvp gear in dungeons and raids? For example I am an Unholy DK, and the bonus for wearing 4 main pvp items(head, chest, etc.) is 250 strength (70+180).
According to EJ calculations, to offset this bonus of 250 strength alone I need exactly 1030 haste rating (the second best stat for UH DKs). Can I ever get so much haste on those 4 pve pieces worn instead of the pvp gear? No. Only epic raid gear can prove better, but until then - 4pc pvp is all the way.

So I think people should keep silent and read up before blaming others for wearing pvp gear in pve environment.

UPD: Hit cap is achieved by trinkets, and for DKs haste is better than expertise even when the latter is not capped.

Okay, so for one class it is good to have 4 pieces of pvp gear... But somehow... People tend to wear more than just those 4 pieces, so yeah, we dismiss it and the people who wear it! I agree to what you write, that it is better... But I do not believe in pvp gear, and never will! If you turn up with me in full PvE gear and 4 set items (fully PvE gemmed and enchanted) and you write what you just did... I would invite you because it tells me something about you... But if you wear just one other piece of PvP gear, I would not hesitate to simply write "no, too much pvp gear".
And your case is special, minimum 95% of the players that shows up in pvp gear either has no idea about the tacts, any idea of the importance of killing the right target, and the weight of the PvE stats. Sorry, but those 95% are working against you.

[bbatotas]

Which doesn't change anything; x>0 & y>0 means x+y cannot be -5.

x can only be a number above 0.
y can only be a number above 0.
Your puzzle was x+y=-5 -- no subtractions.

What this has to do with the OP? I'm mostly just saying that your skills at mathematics are crap and that your horsecrap is either partially or entirely wrong.

Why do we not bring you arguments, you ask? We already did. You simply chose to ignore them.

Okay, seriously, to FIND THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO NUMBERS, YOU SUBTRACT THEM! Why are you not understanding that?

I found that the difference between the two pieces was in the PvE gear's favor. And if you're too lazy to add 4 numbers and do two multiplication problems, your attack on me is totally frivolous.

[Tarin]

Usually I am firmly on the "PvP gear BAD!" bandwagon, so it all but physically pains me to admit this, but the math does indeed support, in specific cases, that using PvP gear, for bonuses such as the DK 4-set (+250 Strength), outweighs using four pieces of PvE gear in those slots.

For the most part, and in my opinion why people refuse to let this one go, your average player encountered in the Dungeon Finder in PvP gear, has not done the math and is, in fact, using it to cheat the average ilevel requirements. As for the situation arising where PvP gear can be better for PvE than PvP gear; I find it to be lazy development work by the staff at Blizzard. PvP gear is intended for use in PvP encounters. PvE gear is intended for use in PvE encounters. If the two are interchangeable, it defeats the purpose of having the delineation in the first place.

You make it sound like you're disagreeing with me, but that's... exactly what I was talking about. The first paragraph at the very least.

[Drunkenvalley]

Back to the OP, I can only apologize that you're experiencing issues. I hear some of them occasionally, and tell them straight away that it was simply the better gear alternative with my available resources. /shrug

[Tarin]

Okay, seriously, to FIND THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO NUMBERS, YOU SUBTRACT THEM! Why are you not understanding that?

I found that the difference between the two pieces was in the PvE gear's favor. And if you're too lazy to add 4 numbers and do two multiplication problems, your attack on me is totally frivolous.

You're using completely random numbers. Compare the actual stat weights to the actual pieces of gear you'd be replacing, and don't just go "this is about the amount", it not only makes you seem terribly uninformed, but impulsive, crude, and stubborn.

[bbatotas]

I'm going to assume your "maths" was either a typo or a lame attempt at trying to be ironic, but that's beside the point. Your math is completely botch, because you can't just throw out random numbers, do some half-assed algebra, and expect there to be a cult following bowing to your supreme intelligence above simulations that calculate every single detail to the dot and say that there are a whole bunch of cases where PvP gear is superior to the PvE gear you get from heroics.

And that's just bloodthirsty vs. heroic ilevel. Vicious gear is incredibly easy to get, and usually superior even on an individual piece basis.

Why do you think I want a cult?

Listen, the values are correct; simulations have been run and those are how valueable the stats are relative to one another, and if you want to debate this, show me otherwise.

You seem to be making a lot of baseless claims. I do not want a cult, my algebra was fine, and how I said maths was totally unrelated to the argument.
Seems to me you are the one trying to gather a cult by making fancy-looking, completely baseless claims that someone on this forum with half a brain would just assume is correct.

[Xeraxis]

Your first issue is not true, I used 4 pieces as you can see with the simple addition of the amount of resil on 4 items that you could use to make the PvP bonus, the gap with 5 PvP pieces grows even higher.
Second, all stats carry the same WEIGHT relative to one another, at least of the purposes of comparison. If you are referring to BUDGET, then the point might hold more value.
Third, With reforging correctly, you can assume that you make make a stat with 0 weight (resil) into another stat, and the other stats have an AVERAGE weight of .9.

Ok I will admit it is late and the numbers were blurring together and I might have made a mistake. All stats do not however carry the same weight. With reforging you can take a stat and change it into something else you however can not always choose that it is the stat with the highest weight as it may already be on the item. And your average weight does that include hit? Are you aware that if you are hit capped you don't assign a weight to hit therefor lowering the average value of stat weightings?

[mikabob]

I do have a pvp-set i use in my pve-dps-specc. why u ask ?

My main is a shaman, resto is my game =) My main concern for pve is restogear, thats what i buy thats what i "need" and all that. And since u cant heal stuff to death questing... i have a 4p set for enhancement i use with pve-weapons rings trinkets gems enchants and all that. I still get some grief for "lol pvp-gear, learn to gear fool..." the few times i do dps in a group.

The numbers speak for them selfs, i normally just play with my guild but still. The pvp-dissing attitude is just awful, but its a habit from lvl70.

[Greatest Ever]

I play an unholy DK and yes the 352 pvp 4 set is better than heroic gear. Some people are just in denial and refuse to do some research and understand the stat weights for their own characters. Im sure there are many other classes that fall into this category.

Now the offset pieces are more closely matched, but still great 'hold over' pieces until you can get some epic raid drops.

Congrats OP on being a few weeks ahead of the rest of the wow population.

[Kikazz]

pvp gear is for PVP. PVE gear is for pve... and vice versa you are bad if you try to do either with the others gear..

like me seeing a 182khp pala tank i was like wtf this will be easy to heal i was wrong he was in full pvp ret gear with a shield and sword....

pvp gear should not be used in pve ever.

[Hellphantine]

I played feral dps back in Wrath and would often accidentally do dungeons in my pvp gear, and it was not till I realized I was doing almost half my normal dps that I was wearing my PvP gear. Bbototas is right about the stat weighting.

[Drunkenvalley]

Okay, seriously, to FIND THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO NUMBERS, YOU SUBTRACT THEM! Why are you not understanding that?

...Because there isn't such a solution. I already defined the rules for you knowing there wasn't one. :B

The moment you change the value of either x or y to a number below 0 you have failed.

[QQingshaman]

Why do you think I want a cult?

Listen, the values are correct; simulations have been run and those are how valueable the stats are relative to one another, and if you want to debate this, show me otherwise.

You seem to be making a lot of baseless claims. I do not want a cult, my algebra was fine, and how I said maths was totally unrelated to the argument.
Seems to me you are the one trying to gather a cult by making fancy-looking, completely baseless claims that someone on this forum with half a brain would just assume is correct.

do want a link to the ej site u cited, cause someone else came in with numbers for a sim that look much closer to what they should be.

[Tarin]

Why do you think I want a cult?

Listen, the values are correct; simulations have been run and those are how valueable the stats are relative to one another, and if you want to debate this, show me otherwise.

You seem to be making a lot of baseless claims. I do not want a cult, my algebra was fine, and how I said maths was totally unrelated to the argument.
Seems to me you are the one trying to gather a cult by making fancy-looking, completely baseless claims that someone on this forum with half a brain would just assume is correct.

Figurative speech is figurative. Also, my claims are not baseless. Your math is baseless.

I played feral dps back in Wrath and would often accidentally do dungeons in my pvp gear, and it was not till I realized I was doing almost half my normal dps that I was wearing my PvP gear. Bbototas is right about the stat weighting.

I played feral dps back in Wrath

feral dps back in Wrath

Wrath

Really?

[bbatotas]

You're using completely random numbers. Compare the actual stat weights to the actual pieces of gear you'd be replacing, and don't just go "this is about the amount", it makes not only seem terribly uninformed, but impulsive, crude, and stubborn.

I'm not taking the time to make a completely arbitrary item set for your pleasure. There are 1000's of different item combo's and the fact is, you will always have the ability to reforge into a better stat on almost every piece of gear. You argument is completely false because you only seem to care about the .9 thing... fine, make it .85, or .8, but by doing so you are tossing out the accepted weights, the basis of any argument on gear.

[Xeraxis]

I played feral dps back in Wrath and would often accidentally do dungeons in my pvp gear, and it was not till I realized I was doing almost half my normal dps that I was wearing my PvP gear. Bbototas is right about the stat weighting.

Was your PVP gear a higher ilevel? Were we using the weightings from cata? Did your 4 piece give you a stat that can be 3 times more weight than your secondary stats? Don't pretend to know what your talking about by citing things that have changed between patches/expansions.

[bbatotas]

Ok I will admit it is late and the numbers were blurring together and I might have made a mistake. All stats do not however carry the same weight. With reforging you can take a stat and change it into something else you however can not always choose that it is the stat with the highest weight as it may already be on the item. And your average weight does that include hit? Are you aware that if you are hit capped you don't assign a weight to hit therefor lowering the average value of stat weightings?

I understand you can't always change it into the best stat, and that is why I gave it the average value of the top couple stats, no piece of gear will have every stat that I listed on it.