Bear tank, what's wrong?

[Rudy]

Hi there, i need to know a few things.

I have currently an 85 druid specced moonkin/resto. Our guild is a little guild 10 man raiding made only by friend, great part of us are IRLfriends. Our progress is only 12/12, we've got some problem with numbers and players loggin in the same day.

The problem is, our 2 main tanks are paladin and warrior, they re doing good job on all bosses, but recently our paladin needs to play a lot less and a friend of us, that plays feral tank, is our only choice to backup that paladin.
We still don t get why he is constantly picking a LOT of more damage of the paladin. On Nefarian, we aren t getting away from P1 because he is always been shotted from nefarian when he lands. We have a paladin spamming all his heals and cds (while with the paladin tank our pala healer at the end of p1 breaks up with around 80% mana, with druid he is at 0%).
How can it be possible that we aren t going to even go throught p1? both paladin and feral druid are full 359, so gear isn t the problem, he didn t stacked stamina, has a lot of dodge and mastery.

Really don t know if it is a class problem or not, but i don t think. Just looking at top end raiding guilds going with a feral tank.

I am really frustrated that we cannot down Nefarian (the only boss that we are getting problems with the druid tank) anymore.

Some suggestion?

BTW he is using all he s cds (at least of what he is saying)

[Senka]

What does "shotted" mean? Are you sure it's right when Nefarian lands, or is it the Shadowflame Breath? Shadowflame Breath is a lot of damage per second, and you can't dodge that. It sounds like your Druid tank needs to learn to build separate tank sets for at least two types of fights. I mean, does he have problems with Ignacious at the Ascendant Council? Flame Torrent is about the same total amount of damage as Shadowflame Breath, just dealt more slowly.

Also, the Druid might not understand the wide radius of Tail Lash and is just constantly getting his healer stunned.

And also, it's really bad news if he has to use a major cooldown before even the first Electrocute. He'll definitely need to use those to survive the two Electrocutes in Stage 1. With Survival Instincts for the first one and Frenzied Regeneration for the second one, Barkskin is all he has left if Shadowflame Breath is getting him too low. That reminds me.. please tell me he's not forgetting Demoralizing Roar, which is probably one of the most important debuffs for a tank.

Further edit: Actually, I can probably guess what it is. The Druid probably isn't getting Nefarian away from Onyxia soon enough. Is he just sitting there and hitting Nefarian as he lands? There is NO time for that. You just hit him with Mangle/Shield Slam/Rune Strike/Avenger's Shield and RUN. Taunt him the moment before he actually becomes active to make sure he follows you to the other side. Children of Deathwing will completely mess up your tank. It has a 60 yard range and affects both of them within that range.

[Rudy]

he can tank the council without problems, only nefarian is our dilemma :< and no, the healer isn t getting the tail lash. He always goes to the same spot where our pala were tanking neffy.

What do you mean with different sets for him, maybe more stamina instead of dodge, because of flamebreath unavoidable?

i don t know of what is raping him out, but it s really a thing of 3-4 seconds :/

from what i can tell you is when we are stunned from ony's tail lash, and our paladin is stunned, he drops like a level 60 geared full green (lol)

further edit: nope he don t dies the first seconds. He bring neffy in position, after maybe 15/20 seconds, right when the adds are close to dying, he used all of he's cds, and we can t really do anything :/

[Senka]

Yeah, I just meant more stamina instead of dodge. I don't actually tank, but I know tanks often do create at least partial secondary sets for different fights.

Check out my most recent edit to see if that makes sense because now it really sounds like that's what's going on. Try turning on timestamps in your combat log then right-clicking on the Druid's name and clicking, "What happened to *Druid*?" If he's getting melee hits every second or less, then that's likely what's wrong. You can also see Children of Deathwing as a buff on Nefarian.

Anyway, I can't stay any longer, but hopefully it really is that simple of a fix.


Well, I saw your latest edit just as I was closing the window, so I'll respond to that. You say the druid is getting him in position just before the Bone Warriors are dying? That doesn't make sense at all. He lands right after he spawns the fifth warrior. I don't really know what he's doing then or why.
The most likely scenario is that the double attack speed is scaring him into using his major cooldowns, and once those run out he drops because Nefarian still has +100% attack speed from not being moved all the way to the side.

[Deleted]

Sounds like Nef and Ony are too close to each other and both gain the Damage and haste buff.

[Slowz]

He should be stacking stamina because it increases his vengeance value, which also increases his mastery, not only that but because the druids mastery is levels below in terms of value, stacking mastery gems wont help a great deal. Is he reforging correctly? Mastery > dodge > crit > hit > exp > haste?

[SkyBlueAri]

This is quite a funny post tbh.
Just shows the difference between good raiders and bad raiders. No logs link, no armory link. Cant really assess this situation without knowing exactly what is killing him. If your running recount, check deaths and see how your tank keeps on dying. If he is getting hit for huge amounts then its probably a case of either Ony is too close to Nef, Tank isnt geared enough, tank isnt trying to crit with all his abilities to absorb the most amount of dmg, the tank is not pulling CDs etc. This issue never comes up with any of our tanks, and if it does we can properly assess what is going wrong and fix it.

[Dathadr]

This is quite a funny post tbh.
Just shows the difference between good raiders and bad raiders. No logs link, no armory link. Cant really assess this situation without knowing exactly what is killing him. If your running recount, check deaths and see how your tank keeps on dying. If he is getting hit for huge amounts then its probably a case of either Ony is too close to Nef, Tank isnt geared enough, tank isnt trying to crit with all his abilities to absorb the most amount of dmg, the tank is not pulling CDs etc. This issue never comes up with any of our tanks, and if it does we can properly assess what is going wrong and fix it.

I agree, people saying "STACK STAMINA" and things like that are just idiots if you have no clue on the logs/gear of each. However, I do play both a paladin tank and a Bear and the only real difference with a paladin and a bear on magic heavy damage fights is that the pally has the baradins wardens trink for the magic resistance. However the bear already takes 6% spell damage reduction (or should if he isnt spec'd into it). Other than that, both classes should be about the same in damage taken.

The other thing you need to take into account, is that the healer may be wrong... Damage may be close, but maybe he just felt like he was having to heal harder on your bear. If other fights feel no different and this one feels weird, check logs and go from there.

[Bysu]

Sounds like Nef and Ony are too close to each other and both gain the Damage and haste buff.

This can happen before the boss is taken to his position, also like other poster suggested you should check that he's balancing his stats around this type of fight (high amount of magic damage taken), so at least the Tol Barad rep trinket is highly suggested. Also he should always use his Barkskin when picking up any boss since at such point he won't have any Vengeance stacked, hence very weak Savage Defense shields for the first few seconds.

Also very important as a tank is to NEVER turn your back to the boss if you have to move and set him in position, make sure he always strifes sideways.

[relientKitten]

As said, without logs it's hard to see what exactly is causing the death. If you've got a Restoration Druid in the group, make sure they've got HoTs up if there's a chance that a tail swipe is going to stun the healers. Ze should make sure Demoralizing Roar is up ASAP. Make sure Nef and Ony are as far apart as possible and that Ony is turned properly and not frying the other tank.

It seemed like there were shorter intervals between Electrocutes on 10-man so I don't know how much this will help; I also tank Onyxia but the same should apply to Nefarian. Barkskin should, generally, be used on cooldown. I use my Dodge trinket as soon as I get Ony (in zir case Nef) into position and if things are getting scary at *any* point during P1, I pop Frenzied Regeneration (with the glyph). This should leave the Mirror trinket for the first and third Electrocutes and Survival Instincts for the second. Everything will be back up during P3 (and the Mirror can be used at least once in P2 as well).

I really like the Effulgent meta-gem for this fight but I have Ony in P1 and Nef in P3 so I between breaths and Electrocutes I take a lot of magic damage; zir mileage may vary.

[Rudy]

Nope, i intended that he isn t dying right when he lands. Nef lands, he grab him in position, after maybe 20 the healer just can t handle to keep him alive.

and

This is quite a funny post tbh.
Just shows the difference between good raiders and bad raiders. No logs link, no armory link. Cant really assess this situation without knowing exactly what is killing him. If your running recount, check deaths and see how your tank keeps on dying. If he is getting hit for huge amounts then its probably a case of either Ony is too close to Nef, Tank isnt geared enough, tank isnt trying to crit with all his abilities to absorb the most amount of dmg, the tank is not pulling CDs etc. This issue never comes up with any of our tanks, and if it does we can properly assess what is going wrong and fix it.

Hoping you were referring to the bear tank and not all of us. I cannot link the armory atm cause our bear isn t online and i can t share he s character without even ask him. I only want to know if maybe there is something wrong on ALL bears like he is always whining or not. Btw Ony isn t close to Nef, like i have already wrote, tank is full 359, like i have already wrote, tank is using CD's, like i have already wrote. Just shows the difference between good forum users and bad forum users.
Doing the elitist doesn t resolve nothig,

[Deleted]

Nope, i intended that he isn t dying right when he lands. Nef lands, he grab him in position, after maybe 20 the healer just can t handle to keep him alive.

and


Hoping you were referring to the bear tank and not all of us. I cannot link the armory atm cause our bear isn t online and i can t share he s character without even ask him. I only want to know if maybe there is something wrong on ALL bears like he is always whining or not. Btw Ony isn t close to Nef, like i have already wrote, tank is full 359, like i have already wrote, tank is using CD's, like i have already wrote. Just shows the difference between good forum users and bad forum users.
Doing the elitist doesn t resolve nothig,

There have to be something wrong at least, cause i've tanked nef 10N in 353 gear without any problems. It realy looks like
a) he just say hes using cds, but is using them at the wrong time
b) your healers don't do it right
c) nef is to close to ony
d) there are adds on him
e) ony isn't tanked correctly and he gets the lightning or the tailswipe from ony
f) his gear is completly wrong or his spec is

need logs / armory to help you what you are doing wrong

edit: its definitly NOT a class problem ^^

[WillFeral]

If you are saying the tank already has Nef in position for 20 seconds or so and then the tank dies...sounds to me you have a healer problem and not a tank problem.Try changing around your healers and put someone else as the main tank healer and see how it goes,if you see improvements then you have found what the issue was prior.

[Rudy]

ty for the answers, we ll try to swich the 2 tanks, letting the warr pick nefarian. I m start thinking that is a skill problem, aka when using cds and maybe some reforge. Ill give him some guide/spreadsheet to follow. Thanks again

---------- Post added 2011-05-27 at 11:48 AM ----------

If you are saying the tank already has Nef in position for 20 seconds or so and then the tank dies...sounds to me you have a healer problem and not a tank problem.Try changing around your healers and put someone else as the main tank healer and see how it goes,if you see improvements then you have found what the issue was prior.

I really don t get it, we have a holy paladin on him chain spamming his biggest heal all the time, using cd and burning a lot of mana, while with the paladin he is like /afk mode...really think that is fault of the druid

[Barawr]

If I remember correctly from when I dug through our logs Nef has harder melee hits than Ony. If you have a better geared/skilled tank I would probably stick them on Nef.

[Kanryu]

Technically proper bear stats are AGI > Dodge > Mastery Iirc. Thou I usually tanked Nef pre-HCs, as bear he doesn't hit too hard. You have about 5 seconds of leeway before the Children of Deathwing buff goes out. So he is probably rushing it into place and ending up too close then using his CDs to survive the haste until he is worn down.

I usually Barkskin the Nef pull/placement and Roar to get in place faster. Then Rejuv the first crackle and TBtrink the second, Surv the third. If I'm not using it I just hit Barkskin and get a disc shield usually have plenty of health to live through the second. We have always pushed three crackles in the first phase so there is that difference as well. But it should not be a big deal for a fully healed tank to live through a crackle even with only a minor CD. And Nef assuming he's far enough away, should never be able to wear your tank down like you are talking.

Also you probably aren't but just making sure. The Nef tank doesn't have the adds too right ;x?

[Deleted]

Make sure he is using his cds for shadowflame breath, that is one thing that will constantly put your Nef tank on low hp, somehow i think he isn't doing this if your pala healer is going oom so fast..... barskin solves alot of issues for this, and i really do hope he is using other cd's during crackles too? if not then raid cds should be used. The nef tank should not be getting one shot full stop end of story

[Pharazon]

ty for the answers, we ll try to swich the 2 tanks, letting the warr pick nefarian. I m start thinking that is a skill problem, aka when using cds and maybe some reforge. Ill give him some guide/spreadsheet to follow. Thanks again

---------- Post added 2011-05-27 at 11:48 AM ----------



I really don t get it, we have a holy paladin on him chain spamming his biggest heal all the time, using cd and burning a lot of mana, while with the paladin he is like /afk mode...really think that is fault of the druid

When walking into that fight a paladin is already at his mitigation cap. Bears pick up the last bit of their mitigation from vengeance, which makes our savage defense a bit bigger. This shouldn't be causing a ton of trouble especially if the tank is using barkskin right off the bat to help smooth out the initial hits. It really sounds like you have a bear who isn't geared or spec'd right. There is no reason for their to be that drastic a change from one tank to the other. Posting his name and realm so we can armory is the best thing for your guild. We are the Bear community and want to make sure all bears are representing us well. I can't speak for him, but I personally would rather be the reason we are succeeding on fights as apposed to being thought of as the reason we're failing.

If he has things right we can vouch for that and thus help him and you realize the problem is somewhere else in the raid (logs would solve this in one swoop) or help him better understand his class. He's obviously not a bad tank since you are getting through the other encounters, but may just not be understanding something that is keeping you from downing Nef.

--Pharazon

[0smo]

armory link of the druid? ilvl says nothing at all.
why Why WHY???? is your backup tank tanking nef and not ony?
does he die in the first secs after the landing? is he turning his big bearbutt like a nuub the get nef in place?
does he have the tb anti magic trinket for unlucky breaths+crackles?
etc etc etc

[chocho]

i just dont get it tho ... i normally get to heal ony tank and yes tail swipe + crackle+ adds on offtank can be brutal, but i thought nef tanks/ healers had it easier @.@ . the only issue i see here then is if its the nef tank healer, if hes getting tail swipe one of the dragons is doing it wrong. neff side people shouldnt even get tail swiped.

---------- Post added 2011-05-27 at 04:37 PM ----------

why Why WHY???? is your backup tank tanking nef and not ony?

doesnt matter, an angry woman is angry when she wants to crackle+ stun at the same time. i guess people consider ony side a bit more dangerous than nef.