[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[KrazyK923]

I like how people say "Sansa barely knew how to play the game and this scene was needed to make her a true game player," but then justify her making her choice on incomplete knowledge by saying "this is a hardened woman making a choice."

You don't see the incompatibility of those two ideas? Had she had more information, true information, she might have chosen differently, or acted differently, no? You can't just say she doesn't understand the game and this makes her understand the game....and then say "oh, she knew what was up" right afterwards.

Because they're not incompatible at all. She was learning the play the game, but she made a specific choice to be married to Ramsay. She knew full well that marriages need to be consummated in the world she lives in. She knew full well when she agreed to go. She knew full well when she agreed to marry him. And she knew full well right before it happened.

You're being intentionally obtuse here, at least I hope so, otherwise you seem to be the one confused. You do not need to be a master at the game to understand how limited your actual plays are. In fact, being a novice at the game kind of explains why Sansa could not come up with any other possible way for things to happen other than how they did. And she deliberately chooses not to fight back or resist Ramsay or try and convince him otherwise.

Besides, playing of the game is putting yourself in a situation to allow something else to eventually happen down the line (Unless you're Cersei of course, but we're about to see everything blow up in her face anyway). I'm sure most people can at least grasp the basic concept of "I need to do X in order to survive."

Both are what occurred here. Sansa willingly allowing herself to be married to Ramsay is her playing the game, not resisting Ramsay is playing the game. But its also a basic human function of survival. Even if you want to pretend that Sansa is 100% completely ignorant about the Boltons, she saw Theon several times before her wedding night. Identified as Reek and Ramsay's servant. Theon himself tells her he will hurt him right before taking her to the wedding. She had more than enough chances to learn how Ramsay actually is.

[Wyattbw09]

Does anyone in the show usually use the words "The Game" or have people been playing too much Dragon Age Inquisition?

[KrazyK923]

Does anyone in the show usually use the words "The Game" or have people been playing too much Dragon Age Inquisition?

Not explicitly (At least I don't think so) but they are basically the same thing which is why I like the term.

At best you have Cersei making the cringeworthy "When you play the Game of Thrones..." line.

[Ilikegreenfire]

He can't, the whole scene is a display of Ramsey's stupidity.

Roose marries her to Ramsey for one reason and one reason only, she will legitimize the role of the Boltens as Wardens of the North among the other northern Lords, who are already on the verge of rebellion. If the Northern Lords every get wind of the fact the Ramsey is abusing the last Stark, they will go in full rebellion.

I think there is decent chance that Roose will kill Ramsey himself when he finds out how he is treating Sansa and his abuse causes him to loose his grip on the north.

Did you look at the rest of my post? He hasn't abused her yet, he just bedded her. As long as that's as far has he goes Roose and the North arn't going to have a problem with it. Girls get married away to husbands they dislike all the time the North understands this. As long as Sansa remains healthy Ramsey could do what ever he wanted with her. Hell he could probably lock her in a room the rest of her life and only use her for breeding. The North wouldn't like it but I doubt they would revolt unless he actually starts torturing her (which he may very well do soon.)

[KrazyK923]

With the impending arrival of Stannis, and the presumed marching on Winterfell by the Knights of the Vale, it seems unlikely Sansa will be getting another long abuse storyline, like with Joffrey. At best I'd think she had two episodes, 7 and 8, before the big battle at Winterfell, which is what I think Ep 9 will be.

At least Winterfell + the next big Dany thing to happen.

[Wyattbw09]

Did you look at the rest of my post? He hasn't abused her yet, he just bedded her. As long as that's as far has he goes Roose and the North arn't going to have a problem with it. Girls get married away to husbands they dislike all the time the North understands this. As long as Sansa remains healthy Ramsey could do what ever he wanted with her. Hell he could probably lock her in a room the rest of her life and only use her for breeding. The North wouldn't like it but I doubt they would revolt unless he actually starts torturing her (which he may very well do soon.)

Almost every line in this post is the exactly the opposite.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Who... me? Yeah, I read it and agree with you.

No not you Wyattbw09 i thought i hit reply with quote sorry lol.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Almost every line in this post is the exactly the opposite.

What do you mean? By the laws of Westerose a man can use his wife for sex when he wants. Unless Ramsey starts hitting or cutting her he is fully with in the law. Take Walder Frey, he kept his wives perpetually pregnant, this is likely why they constantly died, eventually their bodies couldn't take it. Yet other then his slimy reputation no one did anything about it no one told Walder he needed to stop using his wives for only breeding stock and let them recover after their pregnancies. In Our world this would be abuse but in the GOT universe it is his right to use them like this. There are likely plenty of northern lords who do similar things to their wives.

[eschatological]

One of the larger sub-themes of GoT has always been the role of laws and the men who make them, and whether they should just be blindly followed or if you should stick up for "right" vs. "wrong."

Pretty much all of A Feast for Crows was about this, and it's why it's the least liked book, and a book that the show pretty much completely skipped over.

- - - Updated - - -

-snip-.

This is a reasonable counter-argument. But my argument is that she knew she had other options before the marriage, that she could have escaped the Boltons, that her choices weren't as limited as you'd like to suggest. Why do you argue those weren't choices she could have made? Because you don't like them as choices, and don't think they would have done anything productive for her character?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, it really boils down to you wanting to watch to find out her character development, or not wanting to watch because it was too upsetting for you - for whatever reason.

Anyone who has read the books and watched the show, knows that the TV series doesn't follow the books storyline to a 'T'.

I'm not one of these fanatics who isn't going to keep watching the show because of one scene. Nor do I think the scene was bad, from an acting, emotional perspective. I just question its use to the story.

[Wilian]

Not surprised with simple skip in absence of anything to point at.

[KrazyK923]

This is a reasonable counter-argument. But my argument is that she knew she had other options before the marriage, that she could have escaped the Boltons, that her choices weren't as limited as you'd like to suggest. Why do you argue those weren't choices she could have made? Because you don't like them as choices, and don't think they would have done anything productive for her character?

She didn't want to "escape" the Boltons. That's the point. She wants to exact revenge upon them. And she cannot do so, in her way, besides willingly going into the lion's den and being Ramsay's wife.

She could have done a ton of things. But the entire point of the Littlefinger/Sansa scene before they get to Winterfell is her, without explicitly stating it, wanting to get revenge for her family.

Isn't that what "agency" is supposed to be? Having a myriad of options and choosing the one you want. She could have not married Ramsay. Littlefinger flatout states this. But she willingly chose to because, for a third time, she wanted to get revenge. She talks about "being a married woman," and she knows what that entails.

Its not about me liking or disliking a choice she made. Its about the writing of the show. Which you've bashed in almost every single post since the episode aired, and its what people bashing the episode keep talking about. That they either were so inept that they stumbled into Sansa getting raped or they wanted to write her being abused for gratuitous violence.

When neither of those things are true and shows a pretty basic lack of understanding of the character. And very basic setup they've done in the previous episodes to show how and why Sansa got to where she was.

For the fourth time:

Sansa wants revenge for her family. Her target at the moment is the Boltons. She chooses to be Ramsay's wife so she can accomplish this goal. You have to be very obtuse to not think Sansa was aware of what weddings in that universe entailed. And even if she was 100% ignorant to it, she had several conversations before it happened to inform her. And she stayed. Despite knowing she could light that candle and get help.

Why? BECAUSE SHE WANTS REVENGE. She threw away her innocence in order to maintain her position in being as close to the Boltons as she is. She flatout had the opportunity to be saved by Brienne (while not knowing it was her), and opted to stay. That is how I see the scene and why I think we disagree so much. You apparently see it as Sansa being abused and her innocence, the one thing the show maintained for so long, being stolen from her.

I see it as the opposite. Sansa willing to sacrifice the one pure thing she had left in her life in order to continue on her path of revenge. And that just reinforces my liking of the new Sansa. The Sansa of Season 2 or 3 would have, if given the option, definitely not married Ramsay when Littlefinger gave her the choice. This one does. And its an intentional choice.

[Darth Belichick]

So the argument is that "OMG WE DON'T KNOW YOU CAN'T JUDGE?"

Did you think any of the storylines I outlined in those questions is a surprise and not coming? Are they totally out of left field?

I'm speaking my opinion, based on my experience as a debater and a writer, about where the show can "reasonably" go, narratively. It's pure conjecture, yes, but I'd say it's an educated guess.

I still think you're missing the symbolic part of it removing that last bit of innocence Sansa had. And again, while people may not like it, it was also a character thing for Theon AND Ramsey. It wasn't ALL about Sansa. Yes the act was happening to her, but it wasn't all about her. She can still be a strong charcter, but now she's gonna say fuck it and shit is going to go down (in my opinion). Some people don't like the writing of it, but honestly besides the uncomfortable nature of it, I did think it was a good scene and will work in the show.

[Ryme]

And furthermore, D&D, again imo, have failed to make compelling storylines out of the added brutality they've put in the television show, which is why people now are upset that this rape may really be gratuitous.

Ask yourself a question or two:

1) Was the conflict of the story between Stannis and the Boltons going to happen without this scene? I'd say yes.
2) Was the conflict of the story between Sansa and the Boltons going to happen without this scene? I'd say yes.
3) Was the conflict of the story between the North and the Boltons going to happen without this scene? I'd say yes.
4) Was the conflict of the story between Theon and the Boltons going to happen without this scene? This is the only one I might say maybe to, but he was already cracking, and cracked in the book at precisely this scene with a random nobody who happened to be from Winterfell.

I think the most silly option might be that Stannis may come to Winterfell, win, and just kill Ramsay - negating any storyline of Sansa exacting her revenge. Because then the scene would be exactly that - gratuitous.

This line of reasoning is incredibly faulty, you could remove almost all dialogue and interactions and the show would still keep heading toward it's conclusion, it would just be much shittier.

The scene was great, it was powerful and incredibly emotive. I'd say it was maybe one of the best moments of the entire show.

If you want some extra justification, how about that it shows that Sansa is ready to give up everything she once loved about herself to keep surviving and eventually win. Remember, Sansa chose this, she knew this was going to happen and she has been calm and collected about the whole thing the whole time.

For me, her saddness was simply her letting go of the innocent child in her forever, not the "rape" that was occuring.

[Frontenac]

Speaking of consequences : what will happen if Sansa gets pregnant ?

[Feali]

If only people could discuss like this over things that actually matter.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of consequences : what will happen if Sansa gets pregnant ?

Won't Roose's kid stand above that child if it's a boy?

[KrazyK923]

Won't Roose's kid stand above that child if it's a boy?

Yes. Which could potentially be an interesting development, given the Roose/Ramsay scene from earlier about succession. Would Ramsay off his dad to secure the power in the North for himself, now knowing he has a child? I have no doubt he'd kill whateverthehellhernameis Fray, but his dad? Intriguing.

[Ilikegreenfire]

I just wounder how long it will take Sansa to enact her plan(assuming she still has one). Is it going to happen before the end of the season, or considering how far the show has deviated already, is she willing to let Ramsey knock her up first? If she ends up pregnant and she can kill Ramsey and Rose the entirety of the north will be hers solidly hers, at least until the sex of the child is know anyway, if its a boy She will still have a total control if its a girl maybe not so much.

[Frozen Death Knight]

So I watched the latest episode last night. The ending was pretty darn disturbing. The sooner Ramsey is gone the better. Can't wait till he bites the dust.

As for the rape scene serving a point or not, I can see both sides of the argument. The audience already knows how insane Ramsey is, so driving the point further seems a bit excessive. Still, I wouldn't necessarily say it was completely pointless, even if it was pretty darn disturbing.

[eschatological]

For the fourth time:

Sansa wants revenge for her family. Her target at the moment is the Boltons. She chooses to be Ramsay's wife so she can accomplish this goal. You have to be very obtuse to not think Sansa was aware of what weddings in that universe entailed. And even if she was 100% ignorant to it, she had several conversations before it happened to inform her. And she stayed. Despite knowing she could light that candle and get help.

Why? BECAUSE SHE WANTS REVENGE. She threw away her innocence in order to maintain her position in being as close to the Boltons as she is. She flatout had the opportunity to be saved by Brienne (while not knowing it was her), and opted to stay. That is how I see the scene and why I think we disagree so much. You apparently see it as Sansa being abused and her innocence, the one thing the show maintained for so long, being stolen from her.

I see it as the opposite. Sansa willing to throw away really the one pure thing she had left in her life in order to continue on her path of revenge. And that just reinforces my liking of the new Sansa. The Sansa of Season 2 or 3 would have, if given the option, most certainly not marrying Ramsay when Littlefinger gave her the choice. This one does.

Why can't Sansa get revenge as a renegade Lady commanding an army from the mountains and hills of Winterfell against the Boltons? Why can't she stir a rebellion as the last Stark-of-Winterfell and starve Bolton out? Why can't she go to the myriad houses in the North that hate the Boltons and what they did to the Starks and muster support to take back Winterfell? Why can't she lay siege to Winterfell with Stannis? I mean, she knows Stannis is planning on marching on Winterfell, and that he's at the Wall - what's another couple hundred miles when they make the journey from the Vale to Winterfell in an episode (that's me being a bit facetious, but it could happen in the compressed-time of a television show)? Why aren't those choices, if we're deviating from the books already? Hell, Theon took Winterfell with a couple dozen men, although it was much less lightly garrisoned at that point.

Most importantly, how are those less revenge-y than marrying the son of the man who murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his mother? Or, how does marrying him make it "more revenge-y"?

[KrazyK923]

I just wounder how long it will take Sansa to enact her plan(assuming she still has one). Is it going to happen before the end of the season, or considering how far the show has deviated already, is she willing to let Ramsey knock her up first? If she ends up pregnant and she can kill Ramsey and Rose the entirety of the north will be hers solidly hers, at least until the sex of the child is know anyway, if its a boy She will still have a total control if its a girl maybe not so much.

Didn't Littlefinger tell her about Stannis coming? I think he did. If so then she is aware she's on a timeframe. And based on the preview for next week it doesn't look like she's going to sit on her hands and do nothing and wait.