[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[bluemoon]

It had its problems but you know what, after 20 years of depression and heartbreak we are finally seeing the Starks getting revenge

[Damaind]

Yeah I can see this but....the thing I loved about Ramsey is that he had a method to his madness unlike the Joker/Joffery. He made crazy decisions...that made sense. The writing and the acting were in sync. I wanted his character to die for all the vile things he has done yet I want him to live longer to see what else wicked things he can do. You love to hate the guy. You understood him, knows why he does what he does, and even feel sorry for him. Hell sometimes I cheered for him and wanted him to win.

Kinda how I'm cheering/hoping for the entire Kings Landing plot to burn in a green fiery death? When religion interferes with politics (even in movies/TV) It drives me nuts.

[Wilian]

To everyone that expects from a tv show to be realistic.

I expect the show to follow the internal rules it has set itself.

[Tempguy]

They did what I never thought they would do. They didn't just top Hardhome, they wiped the floor with it.

Awesome episode.

Why is everything a competition?

I still like hardholm. And that quiet scene with the NK and Jon had a lot of impact for me. This battle was great as well, but I don't compare the two.

[Tempguy]

Yeah, when they went out of their way to have a woman "Worf Effect" the Hound in a scene that came out of absolutely nowhere, I knew something was up.

Yeah. Not sure what's up with the writers now. I am all for strong women, but inserting a bunch and changing the game to make them win will probably not go well. I am pretty sure women liked this series before we had Bad Poosi, Asha and Dany fanfic, etc etc.

I like Sansa and Brienne. Asha as well. But I kinda feel like th others are just stoo in your face with the girl power that it takes m out of the show and reminds me of 2016 PC culture.

[Tekkommo]

Why is everything a competition?

I still like hardholm. And that quiet scene with the NK and Jon had a lot of impact for me. This battle was great as well, but I don't compare the two.

I loved the Hardhome battle, I am just saying I am surprised they topped that battle so much, as I thought they would struggle to top that fight.

[Gallahadd]

Yeah, when they went out of their way to have a woman "Worf Effect" the Hound in a scene that came out of absolutely nowhere, I knew something was up.

To be fair, that was the DnD's fault and very little to do with female empowerment. They'd written themselves into a corner by not spending enough time showing the Hound succumbing to his infection, so they HAD to throw in the fight with him and Brienne because they needed him out of commission.

[eschatological]

The writers aren't really going off on their own too much now. They have spoke to GRRM and know how the story generally goes, as well as how it ends, and they may very well keep it similar with some changes here and there.

I don't think they're just trying to show some "All powerful woman" when it comes to Dany. I think they're trying show how all that power is eating away at her (slowly), and she's becoming more like her crazy father, and will if she keeps making these rash decisions. As I said before, Tyrion is helping her with this, as we saw in this last episode - Telling her to not go down the path her father did and find another way to get your point across, other than burning a city.

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Personally, I think Dany is being set up to rise to power, but is going to fall really hard (maybe even be killed) - I think by Jon, similar to how Azor killed his "Nissa Nissa". Maybe it will be hard for him because they become close and Dany was doing well but started to go crazy, ultimately becoming the antihero of the show, which had to be ended.

I honestly think you're making excuses for the writers. They said the Hodor thing was during a meeting with GRRM, they said the Shireen thing was during a meeting, those are the only two things in the show the past few years which they said GRRM consulted them on. And that consultation seems to be a superficial throwaway conversation, or so, because I think if GRRM was directing the conversation and how the plot would go, he would have said, "Stannis would never burn Shireen, it's a thing done by Selyse/Melisandre without his knowledge."

As for the woman piece, ASoIAF is a very feminist series. I think one of the main problems is that Brienne's story hasn't been picked up since the end of book 4, when she was still in the Riverlands looking for Sansa/Arya. That storyline, in the show, ended like 2 seasons ago. And because they wanted to keep the character in the show and relevant, they've had her going around sloppily tying up loose ends. Instead of the Hound dying to an infection caused by some rando's in the Inn, make the thing that breaks him a fight with Brienne. Instead of Ramsay finishing Stannis (something that is, in and of itself, a conjecture of the showrunners), have Brienne wander by and get retribution for Renly. Instead of have her search for Sansa be fruitless, have her run into Sansa and have Sansa reject her, only to come to her rescue later.

Other than the issues with Brienne's storyline, most of these storylines are from the book, just not written as well. Margaery/Oleanna are major players, the Sand Snakes and Arianne are major players (though grossly mischaracterized in the show), Asha/Yara is a major player, Dany is the most major female player of them all.

[Tommy T]

My predictions:

Dany + Asha marriage incoming, Varys went to dorne to get #teambadpussy to join #teamboobs&dragons. Sansa is already bossing around the azor ahai, wil most likely take controll over the stuff in the north.

Euron gets his dick chopped off in the next season and is eaten by a dragon. Brienne will surely meet the hound again and she kills him but they wont show the death on screen.

Cersei burns the city out of desperation and viewers will cheer for her "badassery".

More power to the females!

I think Asha will die next episode. Euron's death would basically make most of his story a waste of time (albeit, 5 minutes of time).
Theon's development will continue next season with Tyrion and Dany.

Major players have to die. Way too many POVs this season.

[Elim Garak]

Sometimes a rescue must be a surprise, sometimes not so much of a surprise. It depends on what author is going for. But still I didn't know that it will happen until it happened.

[Jotaux]

More practically, it was also an issue of keeping costs down in what was already the most elaborate shoot the show had ever seen. "[Ghost] was in there in spades originally, but it's also an incredibly time consuming and expensive character to bring to life," director Miguel Sapochnik told Business Insider. "Ultimately we had to choose between Wun Wun and the direwolf, so the dog bit the dust."

Well at least they didn't forget about him.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

That kind of situation is sort of a no-win for the writers, though.

Either the viewers know that an army is over there and it's "spoiled", or they don't and a whole goddamned army from the other side of the continent just materializes out of thin air.

If anything, the actual battle, Ramsay, Jon, and so on were secondary to the real issue anyway: Petyr Baelish getting everyone to kill everyone and being in command of the only army within...well, damn, where IS the nearest other military force now?

There are a few thousand Freys and Lannisters encamped at Riverrun. The Lannisters are likely to piss off back to Kings' Landing now that their job (secure the place for Walder Frey because he is too incompetent to get the job done himself) is done

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Yep, even that force is quite a distance away, and won't be there long.

Pretty sure that all we saw is Littlefinger fucking everyone over. Everything else - including the actual battle - was just secondary. The North, the Free Folk, the Wall...none of them have much of a force to speak of now, and he's sure not going to want to play the hero and make a stand against the Walkers.

So yeah, I don't think this was some great victory or liberation of Winterfell.

I think the only relevant military force in the North other than the Knights of the Vale right now is the white walkers.

[eschatological]

-snip-"[/i]

I'm sorry, I just don't believe anything D&D say. These are the same guys who insisted Jon Snow was dead. They're Scott Gimple-level showrunners, saying whatever they can to hand wave away any doubts about their skills. Either they're saying that for PR reasons, or George was trolling them, or their meetings were much more insubstantial.

There is no way GRRM said that Stannis has Melisandre burn his daughter at the stake. In the books, they're hundreds of miles apart, and the set up is for Selyse/Melisandre to do it in hopes of aiding Stannis from afar, and to change that to mirror how it happened in the show would take a literal retcon on GRRM's part. Maybe D&D weren't paying attention during their week long summit?

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, I just don't believe anything D&D say. These are the same guys who insisted Jon Snow was dead.

They were right. He was dead.
The question that was to be asked was "how long would he stay dead".

I sometimes get the impression you are nitpicking just for the sake of it...

[RobertoCarlos]

The more I think about the waif chasing arya scene the more I get annoyed

Why is game of thrones suddenly like a Hollywood action movie.

[RobertoCarlos]

The two characters are trained assassins, so I'd say a confrontation between the two, where they're trying to kill each other, was bound to have some action in it. Also, the tension between the two was building up this entire season and part of last season, so the climax was pretty good, imo.

Its not very 'assassin' like to run through the public streets during the day. And one of said assassins is recovering from stab wounds to her stomach (core) and is able to sprint at max speed, roll down stairs, jump over stairs etc....

[Frontenac]

If he can magically keep him alive as some sort of Champion, why let him die in the first place? That's pretty risky, considering the resurrection wasn't guaranteed.



The same argument really. And while it's possible to survive all of that, it's also improbable. And that's just bad storytelling. It's the same deal as in all the action movies where bad guys fires full magazines of rifle fire at protagonists but never hit a single shot. That isn't suspension. That isn't exciting. You know they're never gonna hit. And while nobody is claiming that it's literally impossible, making something highly improbable into a common situation is bad storytelling.



Well, that would be completely contradictory to the previously established fact that people who come back come back as less each time. Also, if he was noticably stronger or faster, to the extent that it would've let him survive an onslaught of that calibre, I'm pretty sure he would've noticed it himself.

~~

All in all, and to both of you, yes nobody is arguing that it's impossible to survive such a fight, or that the gods might have had a hand in the game. But either of those things are bad storytelling.

Because one of those reasons, making the improbable happen to excite or amaze us, is just laughable. We've seen the bad guy shoot for hours and miss and we've seen the bomb stop at 1 second so often it's just cliché and dull. Yes, it's not literally impossible, but nobody is going to watch a bomb stops at 1 second scene and go "Brilliant writing right here!"

And the second reason is the same reason that Prometheus was bad. I've actually seen hours of people trying to explain why it was a good movie, and once you know every possible piece of trivia and subtext and cut it's a lot less worse, but that doesn't justify the movie as a whole. If you can't convey things in a decent manner it doesn't matter what the thinking behind it was. And the thought that the Red God protected him during the fight is completely plucked from thin air and just gives every white knight an unfalsifiable reason for anything that happens to any character.

Making improbable things happen while leaving their cause ambiguous is pretty much the trademark of the show and even books. Daenerys survives her husband's funeral pyre and dragons hatch. Was it because she is the Chosen One, or was it because Miri Maz Dur used blood magic in her death? Melisandre gives birth to a shadow spawn. Was it because she used blood magic, or did the Red God agreed with her? Melisandre burns royal blood contained in slugs and curses Joffrey, Robb and Baelon Greyjoy. The three die. Was it because the curse has been effective, or was it mere coincidence? Bran sees visions through the heart trees. Are they given by the Old Gods, or are the weirwood trees part of a telepathic network controled by the Children of the Forest (probably with bad intentions), as Preston Jacobs think? Jon returns to life. Was it the Lord of Light, did he warg in Ghost, was it Melisandre magic combined with the power contained in the Wall, did Shireen's sacrifice help, etc. Shireen is sacrificed, the weather gets warmer the next day. Was it the effect of the sacrifice, or was it just a natural warming? Jon survives the Battle of Winterfell against all odds. Was it mere luck, or was it because he's the Chosen One?

It's not bad writing. All these are left unclear on purpose, just as in real life. Some people will attribute an extraordinary event to God or the gods, others will only see a rare natural occurence.

Also, I agree with you about Prometheus. The difference being that the plot holes were certainly not Riddley Scott's intention.

[Khadgar]

She's running along a building and leaping off. I immediately think assassin, lol. Also, I'm assuming Arya was experiencing a hugh adrenaline rush, which helps with temporarily ignoring injuries and allows you to have that flight or fight response.

I got the feeling that the Waif could have been more discrete, but enjoyed the chase and wanted to toy with Arya before killing her - playing with your food type thing.

Well said, on top of that the actress gave her a shot of milk of the poppy that knocked her out in 10 seconds the night before, I think it's totally plausible she was still feeling it's pain numbing effects the next day.

[Tempguy]

The two characters are trained assassins, so I'd say a confrontation between the two, where they're trying to kill each other, was bound to have some action in it. Also, the tension between the two was building up this entire season and part of last season, so the climax was pretty good, imo.

More suspense, sneaking and misdirection, less action.

Assasins vs soldier.

They don't fight the same. That scene was essentially a bad terminator soldier hunting a civilian. Not two assasins going at it.

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That kind of situation is sort of a no-win for the writers, though.

Either the viewers know that an army is over there and it's "spoiled", or they don't and a whole goddamned army from the other side of the continent just materializes out of thin air.

If anything, the actual battle, Ramsay, Jon, and so on were secondary to the real issue anyway: Petyr Baelish getting everyone to kill everyone and being in command of the only army within...well, damn, where IS the nearest other military force now?

Bad writers. Allow me to flex a little.


- we know Sansa asked for the vale army. LF wants to help, but he wants something.

- the battle kicks off, and LF is shown with Sansa. She begs him to help. He's like "Shhh, wait sweetling".

- she watches the forces dwindle. She sees Jon struggling. It seems like LF is gonna let them all die before he acts.

- Sansa thinks. She knows he wants something. She says name it.

- LF joins the battle.

What did Sansa bargain for?