[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Dystemper]

I would love to see it end with Jon and the wildlings being waylaid but children if the forest. Jon wakes up strapped to a tree in that stone circle with one of the Children coming at him with dragon glass.. that fades away to Drogon landing on a mountain and placing Dany down and around here are dozens of eggs. Drogon belxhes flames on her and the eggs and you see them start to hatch and Danys eye flickers. The end .

[Shadowferal]

Bend the knee and die by dragonfire, or die by dragonfire while running away...that's not much of a choice.

[Halicia]

I don't disagree that due to his lack of emotions that he needs help and a lot of it. The benefit is that he can squash any attempt of a war or anything to harm the realm as he will know what is happening anyways.

He *could*, but he won't. He could have saved Theon from a needless death, but he didn't. Because he no longer cares.

If anyone or anything tries to harm the realm, Bran will not oppose it.

[maulgryve]

Yeah, the moment Sansa says the north is staying independent, but Greyjoy and Martell doesn't ask for the same, especially being that they were only loyal to Dany. Dothraki just walking around like nothing is also really stupid.

Just a lot of bullshit that makes no sense

As soon as Sansa said she was forming her own rulership of the north - all of the people from the north that were at that council should gtfo. They should have no say in who sits on the throne in King's Landing. Their Aye or Nay is garbage.

If anything - Grey Worm and some Dothraki badass should have been invited to be on the council to have their say.

[Dystemper]

Or Dany takes the throne, Jon exiles himself to the North and Dany thinks she has freed the 7 kingdoms and starts ge rant about freeing the world, no one get to choose etc etc but a large fleet of ships with silvery white sakes shows up on the horizon, heading to KL. Over the ships are a couple dozen Massive dragons. Camera zooms in to the riders and they all have white hair. The Valerian's have shown up from somewhere in the West. Show ends

- - - Updated - - -

He *could*, but he won't. He could have saved Theon from a needless death, but he didn't. Because he no longer cares.

If anyone or anything tries to harm the realm, Bran will not oppose it.

All Bran would say is " it was meant to be. I'm going now ". And get zones out

[RobertoCarlos]

assassin infront of Bran about to kill him

Bran "I will let you decide"

*Assassin stabs Bran and kills the King.*

[IIamaKing]

Where did Jon even get a Sai? I've never seen a dagger like this on the entire show.

He was wearing it the Entire season, Im pretty sure, if not for previous seasons. Defo wearing it the last 2 episodes.

[Mhalix]

What burned me was the fact that we have zero idea "How" everyone found out that Dany was murdered ............ There was nobody else in the throne room at all and drogon took off with her body with there also being no way anyone could tell what if anything he was carrying let alone if she was riding on his back or not as she normally did, For all they would know is that the throne was melted and they saw / heard drogon fly off since visibility was total shit and he went off out over the ocean ................. My only guess here is that D&D decided that Jon would just go and turn himself over to Grey farking Worm and the Dothraki even after he just threw his tantrum about them slitting the throats of the lanister soldiers who had surrendered, Isn't hard to guess that they would have simply slit his throat or likely a much worse death in short order. Not to mention that jon had told ayra right before to go and wait for him to meet up with her outside the city ................... Horribly rushed storytelling here

[Ryme]

Either the 3ER is an evil genius manipulating everything for his greater power or the writers are incompetent. I hope the former but suspect the latter.

Oh well, one day closer to the books!

[Levelfive]

See, this is where you make excuses for her.

The people of King's Landing weren't innocent, either. They refused to bend the knee. Exactly what the Tarlys did.



You keep assuming some morality-based position for Daenerys' past actions.

She's threatened to do exactly this, as far back as Season 2. She's threatened those same innocents. At Astapor, she orders the entire ruling class to be killed, men and women alike. She spares the children, but these children are now abandoned, without parents, without wealth or income, in a city filled with freshly-released slaves, none of whom will have any sympathy for their plight, and many of whom will take their past indignities out on the only targets remaining; those same children.

And let's consider the aftermath. After liberating Astapor and establishing a council to rule it, that council is almost immediately overthrown by Cleon the Butcher, who set himself up as an "Emperor". And then shortly after that, Astapor and Yunkai are retaken by slave masters, and the old ways are re-established. At the time, Meereen is still free, but we can likely assume that didn't last long, either.

She was never interested in lasting change in Essos. She was interested in pillage for resources and soldiers to fuel her campaign in Westeros.

It's not convincingly anchored in the narrative (and trying to compare the Tarlys who were noblemen as well as soldiers to a million civilians is a stretch, to put it mildly). Apologies if this has been linked already, but it's pretty even-handed and thoughtful:

ETA: And I would argue that there was very much a morality-based position for her past actions--even if it was ruthless and occasionally shocking, it was rooted in her conception of justice for the guilty.

[nocturnus]

Not that it matters, but the show went to shit the moment they deviated from the actual story; those two douche bags don't know how to adapt an existing story, never mind write a new one altogether.

This was season was again pathetically average, if not worse.

[Flurryfang]

That's the thing. Here's Dany's chain of thought;

The world needs saving.
I'm the only one who can save it.
I need to sit the Iron Throne to do so, first.
My people must have a reason to support me completely, or I will face constant questioning and rebellion.
That support must come through either love, or fear.
The people of Westeros do not love me, they reject me.
Thus, to sit the throne, and use it to begin my conquest of the known world, the people of Westeros must fear me.
So I'll burn King's Landing to ashes to show what happens to those who refuse to bend the knee. The rest will fall in line.

She's making a sacrifice to further her greater goal. That "sacrifice" is the innocent lives in King's Landing. It still serves her goals, the same goals she has always had. That she has told people, time and again. They have not changed. Neither has Dany. It's just that, until recently, the people refusing to support her were even worse, so you overlooked her response. You tried to see it as a response to their specific villainy, when it was almost always about refusing to fall in line in support of her cause.

So when presented with targets, like the Tarlys or the people of King's Landing, who aren't overtly villainous, her strategy doesn't change, because it was never about that.


And before you cite times when she claimed it was about that, these kinds of leaders always have inspiring words. Hitler had inspiring, motivating speeches. They were bullshit, and you shouldn't have ever given them the blind faith you did.

See i really like that chain of thought, but that thing is never really shown in the series. If we are to believe Dany's actions, we need to hear and understand her thinking.

I think they really missed out by just having her stay silent, not have her talk with people about her thoughts and explain her reasons...... I think that is a major letdown of the last season overall really, so many people don't talk about their decisions and when confronted, defends those decisions for them to be rechallenged.

So really, for people to go through character development, we really have to hear the character debate the development with themselfs or others. If not, then its not development, then its just a change.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not convincingly anchored in the narrative (and trying to compare the Tarlys who were noblemen as well as soldiers to a million civilians is a stretch, to put it mildly). Apologies if this has been linked already, but it's pretty even-handed and thoughtful:

ETA: And I would argue that there was very much a morality-based position for her past actions--even if it was ruthless and occasionally shocking, it was rooted in her conception of justice for the guilty.

The thing is also, even if you focus on foreshadowing, for every foreshadow about her going mad, you have had a foreshadow about her being good. Going by foreshadow, they went both ways really and that just makes it all end up on neutral.

[Endus]

See i really like that chain of thought, but that thing is never really shown in the series. If we are to believe Dany's actions, we need to hear and understand her thinking.

I think they really missed out by just having her stay silent, not have her talk with people about her thoughts and explain her reasons...... I think that is a major letdown of the last season overall really, so many people don't talk about their decisions and when confronted, defends those decisions for them to be rechallenged.

So really, for people to go through character development, we really have to hear the character debate the development with themselfs or others. If not, then its not development, then its just a change.

I mean, I've said multiple times that the writing in the last couple seasons is way too rushed; they needed at least another season to properly fill this stuff out. I'm not arguing that "the writing was great", just that there was heaps of foreshadowing, and that Daenerys was really not presented as the Glorious Guardian of All That's Right and Good like some people claim she was. That foreshadowing and writing in the good seasons made it clear this wasn't the case, we needed a slower exposure of it at the end, not the rug-pull they gave us.

If you're arguing it was sloppy and cheap and forced, then we agree. If you're arguing it's contradicting her character arc and out of character for Daenerys, I'm gonna point out how that's really not the case.

[maulgryve]

It's not convincingly anchored in the narrative (and trying to compare the Tarlys who were noblemen as well as soldiers to a million civilians is a stretch, to put it mildly). Apologies if this has been linked already, but it's pretty even-handed and thoughtful:

ETA: And I would argue that there was very much a morality-based position for her past actions--even if it was ruthless and occasionally shocking, it was rooted in her conception of justice for the guilty.

Thanks for posting that video. He pretty much sums up exactly what went wrong with Dany's character. I don't think anyone would be mad at the last season if they had only done her character arc correctly. Her going insane/evil is ok - as long as the writers did it in a clever way. That last episode was just garbage writing. I can't understand how/why anyone defends it.

[Black Goat]

Who is obsessing? It's a question and an interesting place for you to jump into the conversation for the "first time." Who am I defending? I am disagreeing with you and suggesting that you make unwarranted assumptions.

Understanding historical leaders helps us to understand how human beings make decisions, which is relevant to this series which purported to offer a realistic perspective on the politics of a low fantasy world. Hilarious suggestion that the realm would give a shit about Bran, or that their sympathy would somehow lead to their making an untested, inexperienced child with no claim to the throne their king. Leaving out the fact that he can't walk, and the list of historical rulers who could not walk is not long. I'm trying to find any examples and struggling, though I suspect there must be at least one. Should the ability to walk be relevant to rule? Of course not, it's moronic, but humans =/

I'm not unhappy with the concept, it's a great idea to have Bran as king, the writers just did absolutely nothing to earn it. Tyrion's speech should have been laughed at as hard as Sam's.

You're the third person to echo the "new account" skepticism. It's nonsense, and isn't worth mentioning. You jumped into a conversation once, did people treat you the same? I jumped in because someone said Bran was autistic, when he was not. I've made that quite clear, and have said it enough. I will not waste my time further addressing why I decided to post instead of simply lurking about.

I ultimately wanted the ending I suspect most wanted. I wanted Jon on the Throne.

My objection is that the commonfolk of Westeros don't get a choice. Sam offered the democracy aspect and all the Lords laughed, which was tongue-in-cheek and clearly a mockery of real-world politics. It was pompously suggested that "the people of Westeros" would never accept Bran, a crippled king. My point is, it doesn't matter what they accept, they don't get a vote. Armies would NOT turn on their commanders, as per the original suggestion, either.

There were no assumptions made on my part. Period. Anything I've said is demonstrable within the frame of the show and books.

[Celista]

What burned me was the fact that we have zero idea "How" everyone found out that Dany was murdered ............ There was nobody else in the throne room at all and drogon took off with her body with there also being no way anyone could tell what if anything he was carrying let alone if she was riding on his back or not as she normally did, For all they would know is that the throne was melted and they saw / heard drogon fly off since visibility was total shit and he went off out over the ocean ................. My only guess here is that D&D decided that Jon would just go and turn himself over to Grey farking Worm and the Dothraki even after he just threw his tantrum about them slitting the throats of the lanister soldiers who had surrendered,

Yeah that's my guess. Definitely not shit I would have done.

Greyworm: Where's our queen?
Me: Dunno man, haven't seen her. *pisses off to Winterfell*

[Nathreim]

He was wearing it the Entire season, Im pretty sure, if not for previous seasons. Defo wearing it the last 2 episodes.

He has it all the way back in season one actually. You can see it when he saves Commander Mormont.

[Adamas102]

By then everyone knew Jon was the rightful heir and had a ton of support. Grey Worm had no choice about killing him on the spot, he still respected what he'd done and respected he, like Tyrion would be treated differently. I mean, you say yourself "the only people who hate him took a boat to another continent". He hates him, but he's not a fucking idiot.

He got exiled because he didn't want to be King, everyone knew he was a Targaryan and didn't want another on the throne even if he did, and he had no place in Winterfell. His work was done. What the fuck else is he going to do? Get executed for killing Dany which is what was actually going to happen? Dany was even more instrumental in killing ice zombies, as was Arya; people were glad the former was dead and no one seemed to give much of a shit about the latter.

Grey Worm isn’t a political tactician and seemed fully prepared to fight when provoked. The Unsullied know only battle, and with a murdered queen who was so close to their captain it seems pretty silly that they didn’t just execute Jon then fight to the last man to continue Dany’s “liberation” crusade.

As for Jon, people seem to have already forgotten that he spent 7 seasons gathering allies to fight the NK only for Dany and Arya to sweep in last minute to hog the spotlight. As far as we still know, only 5 people know Jon’s parentage (His siblings, Tyrion, and Sam, since nothing seemed to come of Varys’ letter(s)). He didn’t have to be king, he could just go relax somewhere nice, have a family, not be considered an exile. Why would he have no place in Winterfell? Maybe he’ll be happy north of the wall but it still seems shitty that the choice had to be made for him. Then again, he hasn’t really made a decision for himself in over a year now.

[mber341]

Yeah that's my guess. Definitely not shit I would have done.

Greyworm: Where's our queen?
Me: Dunno man, haven't seen her. *pisses off to Winterfell*

Wilding leader: where's Mance?
Jon: he's dead.
Wilding leader: how?
Jon: i shot an arrow thru his heart.

I think people are forgetting how Jon works.

[Levelfive]

I mean, I've said multiple times that the writing in the last couple seasons is way too rushed; they needed at least another season to properly fill this stuff out. I'm not arguing that "the writing was great", just that there was heaps of foreshadowing, and that Daenerys was really not presented as the Glorious Guardian of All That's Right and Good like some people claim she was. That foreshadowing and writing in the good seasons made it clear this wasn't the case, we needed a slower exposure of it at the end, not the rug-pull they gave us.

If you're arguing it was sloppy and cheap and forced, then we agree. If you're arguing it's contradicting her character arc and out of character for Daenerys, I'm gonna point out how that's really not the case.

But it IS out of character for her, based on what had been developed to that point. I think most people are not objecting to where she ended up, but how sloppily and haphazardly she was written to get there. Again, if Arya suddenly started murdering civilians in King's Landing, would it be sufficient justification that she's been training since season 1 and had a kill list since forever? I've never been Team Daenerys--she had that cool scene back in season 3, but the Hound was always my favorite character, so the idea that people are mad because they're blinded by some kind of loyalty or wishful thinking is a misread of their objections. Remember when Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale for literally no other narrative reason than dramatic tension because the writers gave up on trying to find a better, more creative, more convincing way for that to happen that's genuinely reflective of the character developed thus far? It's precisely that kind of disservice to an otherwise realized character that people are objecting to.

Thanks for posting that video. He pretty much sums up exactly what went wrong with Dany's character. I don't think anyone would be mad at the last season if they had only done her character arc correctly. Her going insane/evil is ok - as long as the writers did it in a clever way. That last episode was just garbage writing. I can't understand how/why anyone defends it.

Agreed. Like everyone else, I'm sure, I'm really curious to see how GRRM deals with it.