The League of Legends thread

[Charge me Doctor]

You're right, I overreacted. The difference between those games and LoL is that turn rates don't make the game slow paced, because of various reasons (e.g. SC2 where you control multiple units so you'll always have something to do either way) I haven't played all of those games though so maybe turn rates have a negative impact on some of them.



Maybe if done right, the reason I'm doubtful it is the right solution is because of DotA 2's turn delay which in my opinion is horrible in an otherwise great game, and which is a major factor as to why DotA 2 is considered more slow paced than LoL and HoN.

This is obviously just all my own opinion and I guess I can understand why some people would like playing with a turn delay, I really don't believe it would fit in LoL though and I can't stress that enough.

The problem with lol is it being too clunky. Cast times are fucked up so hard, that if you stun (for example) ez when he casts ult, he will still get his ult off while stunned.

[Deleted]

Far as I know, yes.

Clarification's the explanation, the example illustrates the clarification, i.e. is correct.

Yay

You're right, I overreacted. The difference between those games and LoL is that turn rates don't make the game slow paced, because of various reasons (e.g. SC2 where you control multiple units so you'll always have something to do either way) I haven't played all of those games though so maybe turn rates have a negative impact on some of them.

It just feels weird to me to fuss about whether a game is fast-paced or not when the game's already pretty slow compared to actual fast-paced games like Quake.

Maybe if done right, the reason I'm doubtful it is the right solution is because of DotA 2's turn delay which in my opinion is horrible in an otherwise great game, and which is a major factor as to why DotA 2 is considered more slow paced than LoL and HoN.

DotA's turn rates are ridiculous though. Even the fastest heroes in the game take a 10th of a second to turn around, the slowest are almost a fourth. I just think even giving most champs a high turnrate would help with the infinite kiting issue.

The problem with lol is it being too clunky. Cast times are fucked up so hard, that if you stun (for example) ez when he casts ult, he will still get his ult off while stunned.

This may well just be a balancing point. Trueshot and Finales would be heavily nerfed if they could be interrupted.

[Deleted]

...

Yeah maybe you're right, you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject. I'm still hoping you're wrong and they come up with another solution, though. :P

[Duilliath]

They can be.

But, you need to interrupt during the cast animation. Any later and the cast will fire no matter what happens to the champion.

The logic is there, just the execution is wonky at times (best example: fling + jump, such as Volibear + Tristana).

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Yeah maybe you're right, you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject. I'm still hoping you're wrong and they come up with another solution, though. :P

I don't see them implement turn rate. It'd be such a massive overhaul of the game and change its feel entirely. Just not going to happen. Same as in WoW where this would completely destroy hunter kiting.

[Deleted]

you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject.

That's the nicest thing anyone in this forum has ever said to me.

But, you need to interrupt during the cast animation. Any later and the cast will fire no matter what happens to the champion.

It depends on the stun and the spell of course but it's still something. Lux might not have much of an issue because she usually blows all her other spells first but Ezreal would be pretty sad over all that time he could've spent just casting his other abilities.

I don't see them implement turn rate. It'd be such a massive overhaul of the game and change its feel entirely. Just not going to happen. Same as in WoW where this would completely destroy hunter kiting.

Well yeah, it would require absolutely enormous amounts of re-balancing, something which I doubt Riot is inclined to do rather than, say, add another melee-only item. I just think it'd be nice. *shrug*

[Charge me Doctor]

I think adding turn rates will add more options for CC. Look at Batriders oil which slows turn rate.

I love how kiting realized in SC2 on flying units (they have to stop to shoot, but they save momentum and still move forwards slowly loosing speed until they move again). If you are good at it, you can use flying units to kite without even loosing speed, if you are bad, you will catch a lot more shots from anti-air than you should.

In dota 2 you have to be sure that if you turn around to shoot at enemy that chases you, you have to consider what you will do after shot (turning around again and started running is not an option obviously, you loose too much time and enemy will catch up with you), thus, making positioning more important due to need of making enough distance between you and enemy to use your skills without being in danger (i.e. "if i will turn around and land 1 shot at enemy, then CC spell, then 2 more attacks, and i will have 1 second to turn around and start running away").

If someone chases you in LoL, you can just shoot behind (like in some kind of FPS game) and all you need to know is:
If enemy faster than me?
If enemy have a gap closer that will be in range with me?
If i have some kind of CC on attack i'm about to use?
And that's why melee characters have SO much gap closers. Without it they will be endlessly kited by ranged characters making them "out of current meta" (Udyr, Sion, Olaf, Skarner, and Warwick outside of his ult).
If you look at dota, it has melee characters without any kind of gap closers or ranged CC (Abaddon, Axe, Broodmother, Doom, Ember spirit, Omniknight, Sould Keeper, Undying, Ursa). They rely on enemy being distracted (ambushes, ganks), on jukes, on other players and items to get in range with enemy. And if they are in range, it's enemy turn to think how to get rid of them.

But that's what makes two games different and there is no need to copy it. But i hope Riot will make body-block more reliable than it is now

[Duilliath]

DotA has BKB (iirc), which essentially is - in my mind - worse than giving some/most melee gap closers. This means you have to account for all melees breaking the ground rule of 'Imma push yer face in... if I can get close', because all of them can get close. If they don't buy it, they screw themselves over.

Someone like Udyr can have insane power up close simply because he is so prone to being kited.

[Duilliath]

Additionally, I don't think the problem's so big it requires such a drastic overhaul.

[Deleted]

DotA has BKB (iirc), which essentially is - in my mind - worse than giving some/most melee gap closers. This means you have to account for all melees breaking the ground rule of 'Imma push yer face in... if I can get close', because all of them can get close. If they don't buy it, they screw themselves over.

Someone like Udyr can have insane power up close simply because he is so prone to being kited.

So much this.


A lot of people think they should take various ideas from DotA and implement them in League because hey, they work in DotA. The games are very different and that means you can't just implement random elements from either game into the other one, it just doesn't work that way (in most cases). Both games are great because they're unique and I'd like it to stay that way. Sorry, random rant.

[Deleted]

DotA has BKB (iirc), which essentially is - in my mind - worse than giving some/most melee gap closers. This means you have to account for all melees breaking the ground rule of 'Imma push yer face in... if I can get close', because all of them can get close. If they don't buy it, they screw themselves over.

Someone like Udyr can have insane power up close simply because he is so prone to being kited.

Magic immunity would be ridiculous in LoL though. It works in DotA because of all the damage types and debuff/CC properties. If there was a system in place for what could pierce it and what couldn't, it could still work. (I'm not saying they should, it just sounds like you're trying to put a circle in a square hole.)

It would just feel clunky with a turn rate though (Not ignoring all these arguments in favour of it because it probably would be a big help to LoL at the moment). A slow turn rate punishes people too hard for simple mistakes. While it'd make "skill level" more noticeable I just don't think it'd be that fun to have around

How dare you have fun in a video game.

A lot of people think they should take various ideas from DotA and implement them in League because hey, they work in DotA. .

It's not just that it's in DotA, that's just where I got the idea from mostly.

[Duilliath]

DotA has tons of retarded crap as well. Both games do.

More interested in fixing LoL's uniques problems with solutions unique to LoL tbh.

[Firebert]

If we take all the good parts of dota and try to apply them to LoL wouldn't we just end up with dota anyway?

A lot of the time people talk about the features LoL needs they seem to be features that dota has >.>

It's worked the other way for non-WoW MMOs.

[Deleted]

If we take all the good parts of dota and try to apply them to LoL wouldn't we just end up with dota anyway?

Well, if we take all the good parts of DotA and intentionally do the opposite, wouldn't we just end up with...well...something really weird?

A lot of the time people talk about the features LoL needs they seem to be features that dota has >.>

Mostly because it provides an adequate basis for comparison. Sure, you shouldn't put strafejumping in CS but adding a proximity launcher wouldn't break the game.

More interested in fixing LoL's uniques problems with solutions unique to LoL tbh.

Why can't solutions be added based on their efficacy and not their uniqueness?

[Duilliath]

Why can't solutions be added based on their efficacy and not their uniqueness?

Two reasons:
1) LoL has problem which are LoL-related. Not DotA/HoN/WC3/WoW/Aion/SC2/whatever, related. This means solutions need to be tailored for LoL.
2) If I wanted to play one of the other games, I would. As such, it is preferable to keep gameplay as distinguishable from other games as possible.

[Deleted]

It's not just that it's in DotA, that's just where I got the idea from mostly.

Yeah I wasn't really referring to turn rates since you provided other examples than DotA there, sorry for not making that clear.

[Deleted]

Two reasons:
1) LoL has problem which are LoL-related. Not DotA/HoN/WC3/WoW/Aion/SC2/whatever, related. This means solutions need to be tailored for LoL.

A specific problem can still have a generic solution.

2) If I wanted to play one of the other games, I would. As such, it is preferable to keep gameplay as distinguishable from other games as possible.

Movement is now controlled by rubbing your nose against the screen and all spells have to be activated by middle-mouse-clicking the upper right corner of the icon. Also the spellbook has been removed.

Sarcasm aside, I hardly think turn rates is suddenly gonna turn LoL into a DotA copy.


But how about we stop talking about DotA before I get infracted for no reason again

[Duilliath]

I wasn't talking about turn rates specifically. I was talking about whatever people see in other games they want to implement. Turn rates is just one such example, but even that would change the feel of LoL already. Zoning and last hitting as ADC/top lane would be a completely different feel, to give but one example.

[Deleted]

The problem with lol is it being too clunky. Cast times are fucked up so hard, that if you stun (for example) ez when he casts ult, he will still get his ult off while stunned.

yea, LoL isn't (that) clunky you just don't know the mechanics
there are several parts of any given ability:
cast time, travel time and cast animation.

both Lux and Ezreal have instant ultimates that display cast animations, i.e they cannot be interrupted by ANY means. you can hit either of the champions with any form of CC in the game and they will still fire their ultimates seeing as they are NOT channeling their ultimates but rather displaying a cast animation.

either way there is no way in hell they will ever introduce anything that drastically changes the way champions handle.
changing stats to become more meaningful, change stat values, change the roles of characters by itemization etc is all possible, but you won't ever see something that changes the way champions handle in core and essence such as introducing a turn rate.

also you can't compare a game such as League of Legends with a game such as Quake.
the problem is that MOBAs and RTS and whatnot are slow paced by design. you make several decisions and pit those against your opponent (in RTS those could be tech choice, resources spent on gathering instead of other units, expansion choice etc) and sees who comes out on top, all while you're controlling your empire at a micro and overall level.

in MOBAs you do exactly the same (level up what ability first? buy what now? should I push the lane and deny him XP and potentially overextend vs a gank?) and you're continuously making choices and decisions while micromanaging a unit (farming and harassing).

to call that slow paced vs a game such as Quake is not really true.
the problem is that Quake delivers a constant feed of instant gratification by delivering frags every time you make a good decision but it also gets you killed when you make a bad one, and MOBAs don't. you get the gratification usually a lot later after you made the choice.

all in all play the game you want to play, but don't expect a loot piñata of instant gratification out of LoL; it is way too tactical for that.

[Duilliath]

Iirc, it's about 0.25sec cast animation. But it's been a while since I actually saw the discussion on those abilities. It's been up on the forums though.

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btw, opinions on Rammus? (I already have him - hence in here...)

[NotValidAnymore]

Rammus is pretty good against AD-teams or AD-junglers, and he's a pretty good counter-ganker too, 'cause he just rolls in and screws you up.

He's still a situational pick, but a pretty good pick nonetheless.