Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking

[anyaka21]

The only 2 things that jumped out at me:

Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don’t have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it’s considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It’s the only tank class that doesn’t have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)

A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we’re retuning their damage such that it’s a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don’t expect the community to ever agree on anything, we’ve seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are “the weakest tank.” There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.

If there was nothing wrong with bear tanking and there were "plenty of druid tanks" then why are they getting a buff? .... because they needed it and while there were some, it was kind of a "we don't have a choice" for a raid team.

Q: Are there any plans to teach players in-game how to tank when they are at an early stage, or at least at some point in the leveling process? – Romner (EU-EN)

A: A system to teach players how we intend for them to perform their roles is something we realize we’re lacking. We have some pretty cool plans to help solve this problem in the future, but we’re not quite ready to make any announcements, and Ask the Devs just wouldn’t be the appropriate venue anyway.

I've said all along that something needs (needed) to be done about heroics and who we let into a heroic and that they are competent to do the task at hand. Some kind of check beyond a gear check is needed for this. Something along the way, call it attunement for tanks, dps and heals, that says they are capable of doing heroics, be that the ability to dodge fire, interrupt, heal multiple targets, etc... I really hope Blizzard is thinking along these lines.

[Velkahn]

The new legendary will be an item thats fit in (relic / ranged slot) that will give you some (tanking) stats, when you equip the item, it will merge with your current weapon (no matter what weapon is, when using the item will change your current weapon of legendary weapon design) when you use it will transform your (2h/shield) in a legendary item that will give you more stats (depending on your class) the design of the item will depend on your class style (proteccion paladins, proteccion warriors, blood deathknights, feral druids [bear]).
(This effect can be enabled or disabled at will, just by pressing the item)

When you dodge / parry you have a chance to increase your stamina by 20% and you will get a visual effect for the next 10 secs:

Warriors: (glow: steel like energy) your shield increase their size and glow, and you will shield on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

Paladins: (glow: gold/light energy) your shield increase their size and glow, and you will bubble on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

Druid: (glow: green like nature energy) your bear form will increase its size by 20% and you will cast healing roots on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

Deathknight: (glow: blood like energy) Your weapon will increase in size and glow and when you hit your target will leave a trail of blood (like a cut in the air) you will cast blood of heroes on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

The initial quest is to make the "base item"(relic / ranged slots), you have to travel around Azeroth in search of components to achieve this, a random boss will give you the legendary item that may be merged with your "base item"

[TheEaterofSouls]

Im sure people will make threads about this.....Always happens.

[Nosferato]

narrow, agi item for sure, as they are next in line with tanks hopefully thye will make it a quest chain so that you can get 3 items for the 4 specs, staff, 1hand axe, and dagger, but if they want to really narrow it down lets hope fir the first dagger, behold the dagger that poked deathwing in the eye blinded him and he crashed into abyssal maw, where neptulon drowned him.

[Findme]

nothing much to say

[ez100]

"Overall, we don’t want tanks to have 100% guaranteed threat on a pull, so we don’t want to buff that aspect of Vengeance, but we also don’t want DPS specs to constantly have to throttle the DPS they can deliver midway through a fight, so we have to strike a balance."

The balance being? that dps always have threat? lololol and they wonder why tanks dont que.

[Vasz]

Not sure if you heard the news, but 4.2 is about to hit with new content.

WOW REALLY?! So the five months farming Nef have all be worth it .... or not. I mean ANYONE that's raided in the last 7 months, the new rep gear is total crap, I mean UTTER CRAP.

[Cudy]

You shouldn't always be able to hold aggro for every situation, when you do that the game does not become interesting and you might as well have a robot play the game if you worry about 5 man trash that way.

You should if you are good, telling dps to wait, or having tricks of the trade do it for you isn't compelling gameplay imho, not for the dpsers or the tank.

What we have now is just an obfuscated and gimiky version of the 3 sunders rule from vanilla that most tanks seemed to require.

I was always bettter than that somehow to the point that my dpsers have always had the ability to repop pots and go balls out on the pull... in cata as gear has increased in our raids I'm less and less able to allow that, even with tricks... while it is possible I'm getting worse at slamming my hand on the keyboard like a hungry chimp, I kind of doubt that.

...by no means is the current gameplay necessarilly "wrong" just because I don't like it, but it would be nice to have had some output from the devs on the design.

I'd rather have to worry about threat the whole fight than the current model where we have no chance to hold it at first, and no ability to lose it after that.

[Cirque]

I'd rather have to worry about threat the whole fight than the current model where we have no chance to hold it at first, and no ability to lose it after that.

This and this again. In the current high end content, this is, simply, exactly what tanking is. Punishing and annoying for the first 20 seconds, nothing really interesting after. I really have to disagree with this whole Vengeance model and it clearly hasn't worked out as it should have, namely, making threat scale with everyone's gear while it still matters somewhat.

That said, the damage some tanks manage to do, especially on AOE, is beyond stupid, to say the least. It's also not something, when I tank, I'm personally interested in. I much rather do a good job tanking and feel satisfied after than having to feel I'm just hammering my keys and popping a CD when DBM yells breath at me - that is, after the panic of the pull.

[mtawney1313]

Pretty much, and why on earth did they pick the two questions from completely uninformed people. Yes taunts no longer miss and if they do it was either b/c you're bad and hit the wrong button or the other tank didn't stop attacking and reaggroed. Also the 5 tank setup was using a few dps as tanks, any 25 man that brought 5 true tanks to help beat the boss was doing it wrong.

Because they are answering the highest voted questions. That's the community's fault.

[arden714]

Ugh, that basically confirms that 4.3 is Deathwings raid, and there won't be a tank legendary this expansion. How lame. That means that the legendary for 4.3 is either an agility 1h weapon or a stat stick for hunters/ferals. Yay on waiting over 8 years for tanks to finally get a legendary

[Deleted]

Another round of Softball. Easy / Bad questions without much in the way of meat and bones answers.

Ty for addressing something like: Hey, can Dk's get an AoE taunt of some kind?

Army of the undead.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 12:17 AM ----------

Can't even find the question about taunts missing on google... Then again I can't find the questions threat back. O well, maybe it was the least downrated not the end of the world...owait cataclysm..but still.

[Deleted]

I cant believe they refered to their "bring the player, not the class" philosophy - that died years ago.
Its bring the number, not the class or player now and has been for a long time

[Tikaru]

Wow really, we waited for this crap?

The Q&A seems to get worse each time it comes around. I mean come on, they wasted questions on the leg armor (read the f***ing patch notes people FFS...) and about taunts not being able to miss (did they just come back to the game or something, wtf?) was worth their time?!

I'm starting to really consider going back to RIFT once patch 1.3 hits...

[burzum]

The problem many players, and the person asking the question have, is that they don´t understand the purpose of vengeance. Vengeance never had anything to do with burst aggro. The solution in that case is to tell the dps to hold off for a few seconds. Vengeance was created for long fights at the end of a tier where the dps in BIS were being forced to throttle back dps for long periods of time because the tanks couldn´t keep threat because his BIS stuff was all about avoidance.

I have a bear and a pro pally, I have no problems with either of them.

I do think they were onto something regarding DKs. I think average tanks for all specs are fairly equal, but I think bad dks are much worse than bad players of other tank specs.

THIS! Just tell your damn DPS to wait for 5 seconds. It really doesn't make your kill a wipe to enrage! And if ret or frost DK wants to burst from start, have someone BoSalvation them. And if you happen to miss first few hits and someone dies, accept it as a part of the game. Threat should NOT be guaranteed.

I play a Pala tank with my Bear offtank. We have next to zero problem with pulls.

[Fijifriend0]

I can understand the tanking legendary thing because now DKs tank with 2h while pally and warrior use 1h and druid uses agi (I know DK could use Shadowmourne). But, really that could just be fixed by branching out and making a trinket legendary or as someone suggested a relic type item. Personally I have gotten a little bored of the legendary always being a weapon I kind of want to see something else thats cool and using the right item slot/lore they could make a legendary that could be used for any role. To me it seems that yes the hunter/druid/rogue "agi group" seems the only group that haven't gotten a legendary yet(aside from the bow which was only hunter). More over I think they are intentionally picking some questions that are less than top-notch so that they give us some idea of what they plan to but still keep us guessing to keep us playing.

As to teaching people to tank. Some sort of in game teaching should should be added. I like the idea of a mandatory type quest chain with maybe a remote controlled robot that has the standard tanking abilities to just show the basics.

[zshikara]

I want to know when patch 3.9 came out. I don't exactly recall that happening before Cata. I remember patch 3.4, but not 3.9.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

How about for the 4.3 legendary a AGL 2handed staff that turns with a right-click into two one-handed Maces - that way, it would be good for Hunters, Feral Druids, ENH Shaman and Rogues?

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:06 AM ----------

WOW REALLY?! So the five months farming Nef have all be worth it .... or not. I mean ANYONE that's raided in the last 7 months, the new rep gear is total crap, I mean UTTER CRAP.

Well , A, it fills holes for people who are missing things still, and B, Yes. People who've raiding in the last 7 months will probably be - gasp - raiding! They'll have all the gear they need to go into Firelands.

This is an idiotic complaint.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:09 AM ----------

Ugh, that basically confirms that 4.3 is Deathwings raid, and there won't be a tank legendary this expansion. How lame. That means that the legendary for 4.3 is either an agility 1h weapon or a stat stick for hunters/ferals. Yay on waiting over 8 years for tanks to finally get a legendary

I don't see how the information we were given warrants that.

Also, they may just be calling it 4.3 for the time being, meaning the next raid. They could choose to have an Legendary at each new raid level. Legendaries are fun, they're unique content, I can see why they'd like to do more, so long as they keep it special.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:12 AM ----------

I can understand the tanking legendary thing because now DKs tank with 2h while pally and warrior use 1h and druid uses agi (I know DK could use Shadowmourne). But, really that could just be fixed by branching out and making a trinket legendary or as someone suggested a relic type item. Personally I have gotten a little bored of the legendary always being a weapon I kind of want to see something else thats cool and using the right item slot/lore they could make a legendary that could be used for any role. To me it seems that yes the hunter/druid/rogue "agi group" seems the only group that haven't gotten a legendary yet(aside from the bow which was only hunter).

I seriously doubt that would happen. A legendary with no model is just a bunch of stats. I seriously doubt Blizz would ever do that. Since armor is so broken up, Weapons are the best slot for Legendaries.

[Insurgence]

Awww, nothing about bringing warlock tanks back

[Azrile]

Blizzard clearly do not use the LFD when leveling. Many tanks are struggling with threat in pulls of more than 2 monsters. The only way they *aren't* struggling is if they are overgeared, mostly through heirlooms. However tanks beside DK/Paladin will start to "struggle" with AE threat at 70+. This is mainly due the insane damage AE classes are starting to dish out. Especially warriors have a problem with the burst damage. The abilities just do not give enough threat the first 5-6 seconds of the fight. Who cares about raids? They work fine most of the time. It's the 5-man dungeons that are problems with tanks.

The answers blizzard supplies to many of the topics were laughable. Seriously, did they even read what they wrote. The guy asked about 5-man dungeons and blizzard went on about raids. What a joke. Screw your shitty raids, i'm amazed you even consider that trash "raids". Hell, what surprise me even more is that you don't let people random raids across servers yet. 10 people... raid... serious roflcopter on that.

<edit> Blizzard i hope you are aware that WoW will crash and burn the second something decent comes along? It'll be just like back in the days when WoW came around and all the rest just crumbled underneath. Now you are running that "shitty" mmo that people are tired of.

And again.. read every discussion Blizzard ever had about vengeance. Vengeance was added ONLY for raiding... and more precisely for the END of tiers of RAIDING. In heroic 5 mans, and lower dungeons.... if a dps can pull aggro, it is because someone is not playing correctly. Either the tank isn´t marking targets, or the dps is AOEing too early. That is a PLAYER issue. The reason vengeance was introduced is because in previous expansions, at the end of a tier, the DPS had BIS gear, and the tanks BIS gear did not allow them to increase their threat enough to cover the huge increase in damage the dps were now doing. It was not a tank issue, and it was not a dps issue, and it sucked because many dps had to throttle back their damage for long periods of time, making their new BIS gear pretty useless.

The biggest problem with 1-80 dungeons is heirlooms. It is nearly impossible to tank them because you always have someone doing insane damage.. but it really doesn´t matter since that dps can also tank and kill the mob also. It is sloppy gameplay, but it isn´t that huge of a deal. The problem with heroic 5mans now is that as we outgear them, we also get lazy. I am guilty of this myself. I rarely mark targets any more, so if a geared dps focuses on something that I am only hitting with swipe, yes he is going to pull. But it is not something vengeance should ever be able to fix because it means I will be doing insane amounts of damage (if my off-target aoe can keep threat from a geared dps´s focus fire, that means my overall dps is huge).