Need help with frost DW trinket choices for pve

[Anjuna]

I know there are threads already on here about what to choose and what is supposedly "Bis" But I can't really come to a conclusion myself. Mr robot is telling me one thing, and EJ is telling me another, and the posts on here are saying something else. I'm usually pretty good at weighing my own trinkets but I'm pretty stumped here.

I am currently using LTS and Normal HoR. I have availability to Essence, Vessel, and Apparatus. Mr robot is ranking LTS really high and its the reason I've been holding on to it for so long, but i read some things about it not being good unless you can use all the hit after reforging haste. My hit is way over cap, and I'm not so sure its as good as there putting it out to be.

So really my main question is, which 2 should i be using out of: LTS (hit way over cap, 10.99% even after reforging it all off), 359 HoR, 384 vessel, 378 essence, and 378 Apparattus.

Also, if i could get a hold of Heroic HoR, i know that's still one of the current bis, which would i replace? And if i was lacking hit could LTS come back into the picture and what would it replace?

[Ssateneth]

Apparatus is very strong (it'll proc your most favorable stat). Second might be hor if you need the expertise, or essence otherwise (can time with pillar)

[Kronik85]

Using 378 stat weights (not likely to be exactly your stat weights....but they will be close) you get. LTS will be calculated assuming you can use 0 of the hit.

VoA; (406x3.1)+(77x5x1.16)=1705.2
LTS; (380x3.1)+(321/100x60x1.06)+(321/100x40x1.47)=1570.904
EoEF; (1277x3.1/6)+(383/100x60x1.44)+(383/100x40x1.47)=1215.899
AoK; (383x3.1)+(306x5x1.47/6)=1562.15
HoR; (1926x3.1/5)+(321/100x60x1.64)+(321/100x40x1.47)=1698.732

So yeah, VoA>HoR>LTS>AoK>EoEF.

[Choot]

Apparatus is still worse than LtS, even over hit cap? lol...Well, that's not counting how you can time it for burn phases tho right, so it should come out ahead...maybe?

[Kronik85]

Apparatus is still worse than LtS, even over hit cap? lol...Well, that's not counting how you can time it for burn phases tho right, so it should come out ahead...maybe?

Yes to the first, no to the second. If you like Apparatus by all means use it, but mathmatically it aint as strong as LTS, even in it's weakest state, once you can actually use the hit rating it blows Apparatus out of the water.

[Choot]

That's the catch though, when can you use the hit rating as dw frost? even reforging all of my gear out of hit I'm almost positive I'm over still, and i don't even have tier helm in term of a bis setup

[Geni]

That's the catch though, when can you use the hit rating as dw frost? even reforging all of my gear out of hit I'm almost positive I'm over still, and i don't even have tier helm in term of a bis setup

Hit still has a value for DW after 8%. All hit over 8% contributes to more white hits (and therefore more KM proccs) and more spellhit (spellhit isn't capped until you have 11% meleehit because of the talent Nerves of Cold Steel).

When using a 2H you gain nothing from hit after 8% but LTS is still stronger than Apparatus even if the hit is unused.

[Choot]

Hit still has a value for DW after 8%. All hit over 8% contributes to more white hits (and therefore more KM proccs) and more spellhit (spellhit isn't capped until you have 11% meleehit because of the talent Nerves of Cold Steel).

When using a 2H you gain nothing from hit after 8% but LTS is still stronger than Apparatus even if the hit is unused.

I guess, just trying to help rationalize (to myself) why the blazes i spent 12k on a trinket I'm rapidly losing faith in its effectiveness.

[Kronik85]

Well I've shown you the math, LTS using 0 hit rating ranks better than Apparatus. Having a 2 minute on use isn't as good as having passive stats in 9/10 situations, if you feel you can find the optimal window to use it in without sitting on it too long then it could be better, but it's hard to sim. Musing on it, you could potentially have it ready for each grounded phase in Alysrazor, but since the charges only last 30 secs, I reckon you would lose it by the end of the Tornado phase, and for Lord Ryolith it would be decent in P2.

So yeah, I honestly don't see a burn phase that could make me want to equip an Apparatus over LTS, but then again that might just be me.

[Mesovr]

Apparatus of Khaz'goroth isnt 306 per application its 508 haste per application.

Using full hit LtS ends up at about ~1808.8 with 378 ilvl.

AoKg is around 1809.6 in that same gear level.

LTS(Full hit use) (380x3.1)+(321/100x60x2.29)+(321/100x40x1.47)=1808.8

AoKg (383x3.1)+(508x5x1.47/6)= 1809.6

If you have gone over the cap AoKg will be better right away.

Obviously bouth of these items have ramp up times and in a situation where you can squeeze all the hit you can get lts will always pull ahead. If you have bouth just keep swaping them as your gear changes. If you dont have Apperatus its not realy worth getting it with gold for the minimal boost it offers when you go over the cap.

[Deleted]

AoKg (383x3.1)+(508x5x1.47/6)= 1809.6

The AoKg has a 2 minutes CD, the formule must be = (383x3.1)+(508x5x1.47/8)= 1654,025


I really don't understand why blizz² put a very good trinket but with 2 minutes CD on it, it's appear useless -_-

[Kronik85]

Thanks for pointing out the tooltip error, they really should fix that. Equally if we are changing the uptimes then EoEF is /4, it's still bad, but not quite as bad :P.

[Deleted]

EoEF; (1277x3.1/4)+(383/100x60x1.44)+(383/100x40x1.47)=1545,791

But, EoEF can & must be used with Pillar (20%)... every minute... if you add FC +15% it is not too bad ;-)

[Kronik85]

EoEF; (1277x3.1/4)+(383/100x60x1.44)+(383/100x40x1.47)=1545,791

But, EoEF can & must be used with Pillar (20%)... every minute... if you add FC +15% it is not too bad ;-)

I think it shares a CD with Synapse Springs though, so for engineers it's a bit of a pain to use.

[Deleted]

I think it shares a CD with Synapse Springs though, so for engineers it's a bit of a pain to use.

Yes, the synapse put a 10 or 20 sec cd on the trinket and then can't be used with a simple macro with trinket,blood tape, goule, pillar.

But, my dk isn't engineers...Ouf ! ;-)

[vhaman]

All Use trinkets (as far as I know) do NOT stack with Synapse Springs.

As for these trinket comparisons... napkin math only goes so far. Some things the napkin math (and BIS lists) don't take into consideration include, but are not limited to:
-Stacking with Pillar of Frost/Raise Dead
-Proc Rates of Proc trinkets going over ICD
-Use trinkets not being used on CD
-Encounter requirements (Use outweights Proc on boss Burns for example, if you get bad timing with procs. IE, if that big HoR procs at 35% instead of 30% burn phase, or pops on the Transition phase of Ragnaros

Anyways! Personally of your choices I'd go Heart of Rage and Vessel. Get the Heroic HoR if you can. Replace Vessel with a H AoK if you can free up a Firestone (haha. good luck)

[Anjuna]

Really appreciate everyones input and numbers.

Heres my take on AoK vs LTS. Aok gives me a static 383 Str with 506 haste every 2 min for 15 sec. LTS gives me a static 380 Str with 193 Hit and 128 Haste. The extra hit is actually really nice for KM procs. To me that just looks obvious, so Aok is beaten in my eyes.

So the census so far is:

(Not even going to mention heroic VoA)

372 HoR > 391 AoK (if avaialable) > 384 VoA > 359 HoR > LTS (Even after hit is useless) > EoEF > 378 Aok

From reading it looks like some people rank EoEF slightly higher. So my main question right now is if i use EoEF with Pillar every time its off CD, would it come ahead of LTS? I've seen some respectable Dk's on my server using it over LTS, and my only concern right now is should i be using EoEF over LTS until i get vessel? Thanks again.

[vhaman]

Depends on your current Hit. For me, I have to reforge out of all Hit and still make the cap w/o LTS. Thus, EotEF wins hands down. But if you can use... say, half the hit or more, LTS is probably ahead.

[Dyzon]

All Use trinkets (as far as I know) do NOT stack with Synapse Springs.

As for these trinket comparisons... napkin math only goes so far. Some things the napkin math (and BIS lists) don't take into consideration include, but are not limited to:
-Stacking with Pillar of Frost/Raise Dead
-Proc Rates of Proc trinkets going over ICD
-Use trinkets not being used on CD
-Encounter requirements (Use outweights Proc on boss Burns for example, if you get bad timing with procs. IE, if that big HoR procs at 35% instead of 30% burn phase, or pops on the Transition phase of Ragnaros

Anyways! Personally of your choices I'd go Heart of Rage and Vessel. Get the Heroic HoR if you can. Replace Vessel with a H AoK if you can free up a Firestone (haha. good luck)

Just a quick FYI -Last I saw EJ did include Pillar Stacking in their numbers, and it's relatively easy to include math wise. I'll agree though it can be a bit mathy and there are other factors to compare trinkets, but that doesn't mean the math is useless either. Many of your arguments are talking about RNG, and the math is to give you an idea of what's best overall across all RNG.

[gaminphreak]

Where does Hurricane trinket fall in at?