Discipline glyphs: Barrier vs Prayer of Healing ?

[Jewbacca]

I'm confused which one of these Primary glyphs to use:

- Barrier: +10% to healing under PW:B
- PoH: +tick 20% of heal tick after PoH

[Deleted]

Actually, i would not go for none of them. I'm using Penance, Shield and PoM/Flash Heal (don't remember :P )

Prayer of Healing is quite weak for Discs so if you really wanna go for one of them, go for the barrier. But if you want effective aoe healing, go holy :P

[Deleted]

(IMHO) PoH > PW:B (Glyphs)

PoH weak for Discs??? Are you sure?

[Madam]

Depends on a few things, are you running 10 or 25 man?

GoPW:B is much more powerful in 25 man, more players will be in PW:B and increases ALL healing.

GoPoH in a 10 man should be about 3-4% healing done.
(Beth would be the only boss IMO to switch out PoH for PW:B, but can still be done without.)

Dungeons, GoPoH would be the better glyph.

Edit: Glyph of Flash Heal
Increases the critical effect chance of your Flash Heal on targets at or below 25% health by 10%.

With so much Crit on gear these days this may seem like a great glyph, but how often are targets below 25% hp?

[Deleted]

The choice between glyph's is dependent on the fight, if you are In a fight such as Beth'tilac or Lord Rhyofag the Barrier is very useful for healing up your raid in phase 2. if you are in a fight like Shannox though Prayer of Healing glyph is more useful because you will never have a stack up phase. I personally use Penance, PW: Shield, and swap between Barrier & PoH glyph dependent on the fight. I run in a 25 man setting btw.

Elzor why Flash heal? and obviously you will be using PoM glyph because it is a Major glyph and not a Prime (or whatever they are called)

[Pottsy710]

the penance glyph is not as useful as it's made out to be, as it's throughput is rather poor... generally i only use penance as a grace stacker, so i roll with pw:s. barrier, and PoH... of course i swap around my glyphs depending on the encounter...

[Mikayo]

Prayer of Healing is quite weak for Discs s

OOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGG omg a;lsdkfjas;ldkfj I don't often say people are just flat out wrong, but this statement is WRONG. I can say this because I was a bubble-spamming poh-hating disc priest for T11 but when Firelands came out I had to change the way I played disc; smarter bubbles and more poh. PoH is amazing, I'm not going to post any numbers but with the exception of Rag, Baleroc, and Shannox (Baleroc being the only fight in which I can go the entire fight without casting a single poh) you'll find that PoH and glyph of poh are often in the top 1-5 of your healing abilities (if you're doing it right; if you aren't, just go look at some disc logs on WoL).

AS FOR GLYPHS: I agree with Pottsy though I'm probably a bigger penance fan than he is; to each his/her own
PoM is a major glyph btw, not prime.

I always carry dusts on me because I change my glyphs for different fights. The fact that blizzard gave us the ability to do this makes me feel that this is probably how they intended it to work. Glyph of penance is great for some fights, crappy for others. Same with barrier, and even though I just got done saying PoH is AMAZING I probably wouldn't glyph it for some fights.

• Shannox: PW:S / Penance / Renew or PoH or FH (barrier is hardly used on this fight, I single target heal rageface targets where a renew might be mildly helpful but I still poh occasionally but not enough to say it'd be more useful than another glyph. Some of you might say FH - which is great if you use it; I hardly do.)
• Alysrazor / Rhyolith / Bethtilac: PW:S / PoH / Barrier (penance is a good glyph for alys as well - I can justify swapping poh for penance)
• Baleroc: PW: S / Penance / FH
• Domo: PW: S / Penance / Barrier I guess, but the 3rd doesn't really matter for me
• Rag: we're still working on Heroic, so I haven't decided which I prefer.

****these are the glyphs I use for heroic 25 man encounters. I did not do any theorycrafting, this is merely what I have found works best for my raid/playstyle through actual application and experience. ****

I am curious which glyphs you guys/girls are using for Heroic Rag.

[Apostolic]

the penance glyph is not as useful as it's made out to be, as it's throughput is rather poor... generally i only use penance as a grace stacker, so i roll with pw:s. barrier, and PoH... of course i swap around my glyphs depending on the encounter...

Penance is your best, mana efficient healing spell. You should use it on CD. And with a reduced CD, the glyph makes it even better.

With 3 crits on Penance it heals for 60+k. 30K on no crits. It's better then Gheal in efficiency.

I run Penance, PoH and Barrier. As I am only shielding the tanks in 10 man. However I do carry reagents to swap when needed.

[zakaluka]

I think it's a given that during single target heals penance is beast. The question we have to answer is: During AoEspam should we be penancing on CD?

Obviously if someone needs triage penance is the best bet. That's not the question here.

As always, I am haste stacked. If you are mastery stacked the following numbers will change (hpm will be higher hpct lower)

PoH on a group with 2 weakened soul debuffs or 1 target with grace stacked to 3: 14 HPM, 31k HPCT.
Base PoH (no bonuses on any targets): 13HPM, 30k HPCT

Penance on a triage target (no grace stacks): 12 HPM, 18k HPCT
Penance on a tank (grace x3, renewed hope): 14 HPM, 24k HPCT (grace and renewed hope make a HUGE difference)

You can't just say 'well penance has lower throughput with same efficiency.' Casting penance and using your shields as rapture becomes available improve your next 4-6 PoHs (BT also figures into making PW:S a net HPS gain). That means casting penance is actually worth more than 24k HPCT if you aim it at the tank every time, and it also makes your PoH more mana efficient.

The moral of the story is, it's situational. You lose about 1k hps on your AoE spam if you're penancing the tank on CD, but your throughput is significantly more efficient.

So at first, I will Penance on CD, Shield just for rapture, Mending, PoH spam.

When AoE damage becomes high enough that you need that extra 3% throughput, stop penancing. Sacrifice a little effic for some throughput.

When AoE ramps up even more, start abusing BT. Alternating PW:S/PoH gets you another 10% throughput. Only do this for a short span, it's very mana hungry and also kind of hectic because healing is uneven. A little bit is fine, smart heals make up the gap.

After this gets too mana greedy, pop all your cooldowns and go back to step #1. FQ+PI is a 30% throughput boost. Late in fight you would want to also release your shadowfiend at this same moment to support your final big HPS burst.

Probably tl;dr for most. This isn't even the question OP asked, so I'm probably breaking some forum rules. I keep penance and PW:S glyphed almost all the time in favor of barrier, but I also raid 10 man right now.

And for PoH vs barrier, PoH is my strongest glyph at the moment. The question you should be asking is whether it's worth it for you to replace PW:S or Penance glyph.

My logs on Domo - Good example of AoE spam.

Penance 8.4%
Glyph of PoH 4.2%
Glyph of PW:S 3.0% (it's actually like, 3.5% because of the aegis that can proc off glyph crits)

So how much did Glyph of Penance get me? Without it I'd have about 5/6 as many Penances (idiot math here, it's not perfect ok? just pretty close). Then, my Penance would have scored 7%. For me, on this fight, Glyph of Penance scored 1.4% of my total throughput.

Glyph of Penance: 1.4%

When I have to glyph barrier, penance is the first to go.

Sorry for writing a book, I tend to do this. When someone asks a question I don't fully understand the answer to, I have to not only answer it but make sure I really understand the answer

[Vicarious]

In my opinion its as simple as this; PoH glyph is another 1500 give or take heal per person per cast assuming you don't overwrite it early. Even if its a little more healing than that with some sort of proc or whatever better gear you may have its a small amount on that person and is unlikely to save them from death ever. Whereas the PW:B glyph you get extra healing when you really need it, if you're dropping barrier the shit is most likely hitting the fan and that can be game changing.

PoH glyph will show up on the meters for some extra bit of healing less than any trinket set bonus or other glyph you have while Barrier will save lives and make other healers more potent at a crucial moment as well as you. Synergy.

edit: as for the other glyphs and using both these at once maybe you could replace penance on certain fights but I tend to leave it in, though that would be the one I would switch out for PoH or Flash Heal if you like that one for Baleroc. PW:S is an amazing spell for throughput if you have mana to support it especially at the end of a fight like rhyolith, and the glyph just makes it even better. You can halt damage on the whole raid for the most part(10 man) and let the other healers heal them up unhindered. Just me but I wouldn't ever take this one out for any fight in this tier.

[Pottsy710]

I think it's a given that during single target heals penance is beast. The question we have to answer is: During AoEspam should we be penancing on CD?

Obviously if someone needs triage penance is the best bet. That's not the question here.

As always, I am haste stacked. If you are mastery stacked the following numbers will change (hpm will be higher hpct lower)

PoH on a group with 2 weakened soul debuffs or 1 target with grace stacked to 3: 14 HPM, 31k HPCT.
Base PoH (no bonuses on any targets): 13HPM, 30k HPCT

Penance on a triage target (no grace stacks): 12 HPM, 18k HPCT
Penance on a tank (grace x3, renewed hope): 14 HPM, 24k HPCT (grace and renewed hope make a HUGE difference)

You can't just say 'well penance has lower throughput with same efficiency.' Casting penance and using your shields as rapture becomes available improve your next 4-6 PoHs (BT also figures into making PW:S a net HPS gain). That means casting penance is actually worth more than 24k HPCT if you aim it at the tank every time, and it also makes your PoH more mana efficient.

The moral of the story is, it's situational. You lose about 1k hps on your AoE spam if you're penancing the tank on CD, but your throughput is significantly more efficient.

So at first, I will Penance on CD, Shield just for rapture, Mending, PoH spam.

When AoE damage becomes high enough that you need that extra 3% throughput, stop penancing. Sacrifice a little effic for some throughput.

When AoE ramps up even more, start abusing BT. Alternating PW:S/PoH gets you another 10% throughput. Only do this for a short span, it's very mana hungry and also kind of hectic because healing is uneven. A little bit is fine, smart heals make up the gap.

After this gets too mana greedy, pop all your cooldowns and go back to step #1. FQ+PI is a 30% throughput boost. Late in fight you would want to also release your shadowfiend at this same moment to support your final big HPS burst.

Probably tl;dr for most. This isn't even the question OP asked, so I'm probably breaking some forum rules. I keep penance and PW:S glyphed almost all the time in favor of barrier, but I also raid 10 man right now.

And for PoH vs barrier, PoH is my strongest glyph at the moment. The question you should be asking is whether it's worth it for you to replace PW:S or Penance glyph.

My logs on Domo - Good example of AoE spam.

Penance 8.4%
Glyph of PoH 4.2%
Glyph of PW:S 3.0% (it's actually like, 3.5% because of the aegis that can proc off glyph crits)

So how much did Glyph of Penance get me? Without it I'd have about 5/6 as many Penances (idiot math here, it's not perfect ok? just pretty close). Then, my Penance would have scored 7%. For me, on this fight, Glyph of Penance scored 1.4% of my total throughput.

Glyph of Penance: 1.4%

When I have to glyph barrier, penance is the first to go.

Sorry for writing a book, I tend to do this. When someone asks a question I don't fully understand the answer to, I have to not only answer it but make sure I really understand the answer

that makes my post look kinda stupid...

but you've convinced me mr theorycrafter... i shall alter my glyphs accordingly...

[Mikayo]

nobody knows everything and threads like these are good for more than just the OP =D I know I learned something!

[Deleted]

PoH or PW:B Glyph? It depends on the raid size too. It isn't the same to protect about 15 stacked players with your PW:B than protecting 5. Not the same protecting 25 than 10. Although, PoH glyph is almost the same having 2 groups or 5.

[lifebloomz]

Depends on the fight which glyphs you take.

Carry enough matts with you to change for the encounter.

I

[babylon]

from my personal experience (10man and certain healing setups) i say that barrier glyph is close to useless on any normal mode firelands fight and in early hm fights (shannox, lord, bael).
we hit such a high overhealing on aoe phases, that +10% would probably just add more overhealing to it.
mana on normal modes is not a problem so i wouldnt even go into 'if barrier glyph could help us 'save' some mana on aoe phases' discussion.

i assume that glyph of barrier is far more useful in 25man raids.

as for the glyph of poh - go for it, poh is your friend, whoever says disc cant aoe-heal must be trolling

[Deleted]

My logs on Domo - Good example of AoE spam.

Our disc got ranked a few weeks ago on Domo, and aegis is his top spell, his hps is also a lot higher than yours and he used barrier/penance/poh for that fight.

I'm terrible at interpreting WoL so make of that what you will :P
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=8748&e=9139

[babylon]

Our disc got ranked a few weeks ago on Domo, and aegis is his top spell, his hps is also a lot higher than yours and he used barrier/penance/poh for that fight.

I'm terrible at interpreting WoL so make of that what you will :P
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=8748&e=9139

your priest used glyph of prayer of healing and glyph of pw:s, both you can see on his 'healing by spell' list. if he used barrier glyph, then only in exchange of penance glyph.

[Deleted]

your priest used glyph of prayer of healing and glyph of pw:s, both you can see on his 'healing by spell' list. if he used barrier glyph, then only in exchange of penance glyph.

Yeah my bad, that's what I meant haha.

[zakaluka]

You didn't do a very thorough job with this comparison, and you also called me out! So I guess I have to analyze it now.

Luna starts off the pull with a very large pre-stacked DA, something that I am ashamed to say - never occurred to me. Someone convinced me how cool that is, like, yesterday.

Mainly, if you're 3 healing firelands content and any of your healers rank, something is wrong. Shouldn't really brag about it, should find out why your other 2 healers have such inconsistent throughput. Anybody good can get a parse like this, if the other 2 healers are slacking. A legitimate ranking to brag about would come from 2 healing domo, which I believe is possible with normal mode gear.

Disc should have a very hard time beating druid. Even a druid with less gear. I work pretty damn hard to beat my druid. Shaman I can forgive, they don't find their stride in 10 man content.

Luna is obviously an amazing healer, and splits MST/CRIT stacking. This is something I think could be superior to HST stacking if played correctly (a large percent of 'top' discs gear this way), but it has its own unique difficulties (I've tried it). Using crit for aoe heals is strange, feels strange. It's why most guides value crit last for aoe healing, even though crit sims higher than mst.

The choice of barrier glyph is almost just obvious for her because she never uses penance.

Anyway, I already said, situationally Barrier could be better than Penance. This is the fight where barrier would be strongest. So what's the disagreement exactly? You can analyze the situation and decide why just as easily as I can. Penance probably loses some value for AoE healing at high mastery levels (penance during aoe? I made a pretty long post about it somewhere...). It would make perfect sense, but the high crit might offset that some. I'd have to sim it.

[Deleted]

Mainly, if you're 3 healing firelands content and any of your healers rank, something is wrong. Shouldn't really brag about it, should find out why your other 2 healers can only aoe 20k when she's holding 35 during each scorpion phase.

We 2 healed Rag 10 with priest and druid to about 15-20% when we couldn't get another healer.

Disc should have a very hard time beating druid. Even a druid with less gear. I work pretty damn hard to beat my druid. Shaman I can forgive, they don't find their stride in 10 man content.

Here's our priest's resto druid, it's in wrong spec atm
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...kandy/advanced
He's also really good on that, holds 23rd rank on chim hps (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=6777&e=7037), but really disc's utility compared to resto druid is so much higher so I don't think you can compare the two regarding hps.

Edit:

My intention wasn't to call you out, it was to give you a comparison of a log with a higher hps than yours so you could make a comparison to your own play, I'm shadow 4 lyfe and I only play disc for pvp so I'm hardly an expert in pve with it.