Synek's guide to the PvE Subtlety Rogue

[Deleted]

I have two suggestions, coming from the perspective of a combat/mut rogue that might give sub a try.

1) I don't see anything on building CPs outside of CDs. Is Hemorrhage used once a minute for the debuff or every 24 seconds with the glyph?

2) Can you give us some HaT tricks? Are there times we should/shouldn't wait for HaT to fill in a combo point? How long can we wait for HaT to fill in (provided we don't energy cap)? Can we wait for more than one CP to get filled if we are at low energy? Should we be saving enough energy for a CP generator and a finisher so we don't waste potential HaT CPs? Or are these stupid and/or irrelevant questions?

To build CP outside CDs, use Backstab as the primary CP builder, and use Hemo every 24sec for keeping the bleed from the glyph up.

Generally if you are really low on energy ( < 30) you wait for some HaT proc untill you are at ~70, then depending on your CP you Backstab once more or not. IE:
70 energy, 4 CP -> Wait for a HaT proc and go into your finisher
70 energy 3 CP -> Use CP builder (BS or Hemo) and wait for HaT to fill the 5th CP

Generally, if you are low on CP and high on energy, go for one or two CP builder. If you are low on energy, wait for HaT proc. But this is a lot of practice.
In case you are at 3 CP and low on energy ( < 30) wait for HaT proc to fill untill 5th (if not energy capping ofc)
In case you are at 3 CP and high on energy ( > 70), go for CP builder and wait for HaT proc and go directly into evisc.

Sub "rotation" takes a lot of pratice, but with enough practice you can achieve good numbers (I managed to do 32k DPS on Baleroc with an average ilvl of 377, everything depends how used to the spec you are)

Also, as it has not been mentionned in the OP, I recommend this addon for all PvE Sub rogues:
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...hatracker.aspx

What it basicaly does is tracking the ICD of HaT, so that you know exactly in a raid environment (due to the very high number of crits at any given time) when to expect a HaT proc and you can time your attacks and/or empty your CP bar right before a HaT proc. I was the one who proposed such an addon to Brusalk who coded it, and for having used it the whole time I raid as Sub, it defintly helps a lot to manage your CP generation and help not wasting any HaT proc. This addon should be a must have for any real PvE Sub rogue.

[Neazy]

you don't need an addon to check the ICD of HaT. it's gonna proc every 2 seconds as long as people are attacking something.

just don't wait for CPs if you're at 70+ energy (or you will cap) and turn on scrolling combat text so you get a big blue warning every time you gain a CP. HaT procs are obvious with SCT on: if you didn't just use a backstab or hemo, that CP you gained was a HaT proc. if you did use a backstab or hemo, and you got 2 CPs, then guess what: one of them was another HaT proc!

[Deleted]

you don't need an addon to check the ICD of HaT. it's gonna proc every 2 seconds as long as people are attacking something.

just don't wait for CPs if you're at 70+ energy (or you will cap) and turn on scrolling combat text so you get a big blue warning every time you gain a CP. HaT procs are obvious with SCT on: if you didn't just use a backstab or hemo, that CP you gained was a HaT proc. if you did use a backstab or hemo, and you got 2 CPs, then guess what: one of them was another HaT proc!

Sure it procs every two seconds, but how do you know when your HaT proc will occur if one of your HaT proc is wasted because you are already full CP ? The goal is to know when these 2 sec ICD expires, or else you can count to 2 in your head everytime it procs.

But I guess you never tested it to understand the usefullness of such an addon. Yes, you can predict approximately when those 2 sec are over and HaT will proc, but by doing it on your own you might not be precise enough and I'm sure you you are wasting CP sometimes by doing it this way.

[Synexlol]

I have two suggestions, coming from the perspective of a combat/mut rogue that might give sub a try.

1) I don't see anything on building CPs outside of CDs. Is Hemorrhage used once a minute for the debuff or every 24 seconds with the glyph?

2) Can you give us some HaT tricks? Are there times we should/shouldn't wait for HaT to fill in a combo point? How long can we wait for HaT to fill in (provided we don't energy cap)? Can we wait for more than one CP to get filled if we are at low energy? Should we be saving enough energy for a CP generator and a finisher so we don't waste potential HaT CPs? Or are these stupid and/or irrelevant questions?

Sure, I'll do a small paragraph on GCD use. To be honest I must have brain-farted when I wrote the OP because I did plan to write about HaT use. I'll edit the OP tonight or tomorrow if I have time.

[Neazy]

Sure it procs every two seconds, but how do you know when your HaT proc will occur if one of your HaT proc is wasted because you are already full CP ? The goal is to know when these 2 sec ICD expires, or else you can count to 2 in your head everytime it procs.

But I guess you never tested it to understand the usefullness of such an addon. Yes, you can predict approximately when those 2 sec are over and HaT will proc, but by doing it on your own you might not be precise enough and I'm sure you you are wasting CP sometimes by doing it this way.

you still get a warning when you're at 5 CP and you gain one.

if hat was something like a damage proc with a long cooldown, you would want an addon to time it with your other CDs. but it gives you a combo point every 2 seconds as long as people are attacking things or getting healed. if you can't anticipate a combo point every 2 seconds, an addon isn't gonna change that.

[Deleted]

you still get a warning when you're at 5 CP and you gain one.

if hat was something like a damage proc with a long cooldown, you would want an addon to time it with your other CDs. but it gives you a combo point every 2 seconds as long as people are attacking things or getting healed. if you can't anticipate a combo point every 2 seconds, an addon isn't gonna change that.

You can predict approximately the proc every 2 sec, but you can't time your abilities at 0.5sec before a proc for example. You can indeed anticipate it *approximately*, but not precisely, this is where this addon becomes handy. Try it and you'll like it for it's accuracy.

[Deleted]

Thats a good idea for an addon. I do not use it however, i understand why it could be useful and i will give it a try.

On the other hand i dont claim to be special but i can usualy always remember when my last hat proc was, simply because it usually procs with my own abilities. if you think of it like this, combo points dont come from no where if i gain 2 cps for 1 backstab it means hat proced. i dont know about you guys but i always notice it. i think an extra addon would have to boost my dps by a fair bit to be worth the tracking time and visual space. I like to consider myself a resource and too many addons makes me crash. I will give it a go tho because it looks handy.

[Deleted]

Thats a good idea for an addon. I do not use it however, i understand why it could be useful and i will give it a try.

On the other hand i dont claim to be special but i can usualy always remember when my last hat proc was, simply because it usually procs with my own abilities. if you think of it like this, combo points dont come from no where if i gain 2 cps for 1 backstab it means hat proced. i dont know about you guys but i always notice it. i think an extra addon would have to boost my dps by a fair bit to be worth the tracking time and visual space. I like to consider myself a resource and too many addons makes me crash. I will give it a go tho because it looks handy.

In a raid environment, it almost NEVER proc from your own crit, that's why beeing able to track the CD visualy is useful.

Also, it consumes very little memory (in theory), so it won't take that much ressources to work.

[Deleted]

cna you expand the glyph selection to be the majors as well as the primes?

[Deleted]

How would a sub rogue handle the adds during the cat phase on Majordomo HC? Aint worth putting up FW as they die too fast, or rupture for that matter. DP wont even have enough time to build up.

Atleast as assassination you can throw up a few ruptures for that energy return as they die.

[Deleted]

How would a sub rogue handle the adds during the cat phase on Majordomo HC? Aint worth putting up FW as they die too fast, or rupture for that matter. DP wont even have enough time to build up.

Atleast as assassination you can throw up a few ruptures for that energy return as they die.

I don't think they die, I think they disapear (regarding game mechanics), preventing Rupture to grant energy when they disapear (instead of diying), but I'm not sure.

Anyway, simply hemo then backstab and use them to refresh SnD/Recup.

[Splosion]

cna you expand the glyph selection to be the majors as well as the primes?

I'm pretty sure major glyphs are personal choice/encounter dependant, outside of Glyph of Tricks.

---------- Post added 2011-10-14 at 10:50 AM ----------

cna you expand the glyph selection to be the majors as well as the primes?

I'm pretty sure major glyphs are personal choice/encounter dependant, outside of Glyph of Tricks.

[Synexlol]

cna you expand the glyph selection to be the majors as well as the primes?

I don't like forcing people into using X/Y/Z Major glyph. They are almost completely personal preference, with ToT glyph being the only one that stands out.

[Ujio]

Thanks for this thread it really took my interest back into trying out sub pve again! I've been pulling some decent numbers too and its alot more enjoyable (hectic) to play versus assassination and combat

[Beastwhisper]

I love the guide but i am struggling:
I am interessed in sub pve but i use my 2nd spec in pvp (mainspec is combat). Is the sub spec you use also viable in pvp? Then i am willing to learn sub also very much

Again: great guide!

[Deleted]

I don't like forcing people into using X/Y/Z Major glyph. They are almost completely personal preference, with ToT glyph being the only one that stands out.

fair enuf then i guess so that basicaly means we have crappy majors except tot i thought as much but was wonderinf it i was wrong.

also at certain gear levels is it worth droping the hit talents in combat spec for more in assass if you can get all 8% from gear?

going to possibly http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMGcZZcGcsdu0RGo:zkmrob

which is the same but with 2/3 ruthlesness instead of the 2/3 Precision?

[datrupimp]

good question^ im wondering that too, im going to try sub without reforging just keep my combat refoges etc

[Synexlol]

fair enuf then i guess so that basicaly means we have crappy majors except tot i thought as much but was wonderinf it i was wrong.

also at certain gear levels is it worth droping the hit talents in combat spec for more in assass if you can get all 8% from gear?

going to possibly http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fMGcZZcGcsdu0RGo:zkmrob

which is the same but with 2/3 ruthlesness instead of the 2/3 Precision?

It's not that they are crappy; Feint glyph for example is extremely strong, almost overpowered. Major glyphs are mostly situational. Feint is mandatory for Ragnaros, but useless for Baleroc, for example. I could go through fight-by-fight and explain what the best major glyphs are, but I assume that anyone reading this guide is able to read through their glyphs and join the dots.

Dropping a point in Precision is a possibility, but only if you are still above 8% after reforging everything out of hit. Even then, it depends on whether or not the alternative is actually more valuable than 2% spell hit. It's a possibility in some gearsets (and perhaps more so next tier), though as a rule of thumb it's never better to drop a point in Precision.

[huijialou]

I find that delaying my rupture by even a second or two at the start of a fight just gives me more of a chance for landslide to proc or trinkets or any other buff really just use it before master falls off, which is like 6 seconds I think.

[datrupimp]

so my first time trying sub i kept recup up like 66% rupture 93% slice n dice 98% on a 3min fight, only did 28k on shannox 10man, i think i was using my cds wrong, also if i use shadowdance do i just spam ambush or do i just my 5 combo points for finishers?

*guild member forgot to log fights