Synek's guide to the PvE Subtlety Rogue

[Synexlol]

As far as I know you cannot take out all 3 of those points since you need 10 to get to tier 3 of your talenttree. The best option according to shadowcraft values would be to take out the premed talent if you want 3/3 ES.

Yes you're right, I brain-farted.

[Deleted]

have you ever looked at DI for a sub rogue?

as the 3% haste gives a lot to a sub as well as us having 3 dots up that benefit from it's extra buff?

[Synexlol]

have you ever looked at DI for a sub rogue?

as the 3% haste gives a lot to a sub as well as us having 3 dots up that benefit from it's extra buff?

The uptime probably won't be as high as a SP/Boomkin/Fire Mage since only Rupture and Hemo benefit from melee crit. Deadly Poison typically sits at about 15-20% crit chance at best. No doubt it's useful for Subtlety (probably better for a Subtlety Rogue than any other melee), but in most cases it's better going to a SP/Boomkin/Fire Mage.

If anyone has any idea of how much EP/DPS Haste is worth for those classes it would be useful to compare, but other than that I have no idea if who actually gains more from it. I tend to think that a Fire Mage, SP or Boomkin would still gain more total DPS from it.

[Deleted]

The uptime probably won't be as high as a SP/Boomkin/Fire Mage since only Rupture and Hemo benefit from melee crit. Deadly Poison typically sits at about 15-20% crit chance at best. No doubt it's useful for Subtlety (probably better for a Subtlety Rogue than any other melee), but in most cases it's better going to a SP/Boomkin/Fire Mage.

If anyone has any idea of how much EP/DPS Haste is worth for those classes it would be useful to compare, but other than that I have no idea if who actually gains more from it. I tend to think that a Fire Mage, SP or Boomkin would still gain more total DPS from it.

going of that if you have 40% of ruptures criting that alone would give a near full uptime due to only being 5ish seconds between rupture crits combined with 5ish seconds between hemo crits and 10 ish between deadly crits (averages).
since the buff lasts 7 seconds a single rupture for sub has 3 chances after criting to crit again to obtain 100% uptime. with a 40% chance those ods are very good that rupture alone would give 100% uptime add in hemo glyph and deadly and your have your guarenteed 100% uptime as long as you keep your own dots up

[Synexlol]

going of that if you have 40% of ruptures criting that alone would give a near full uptime due to only being 5ish seconds between rupture crits combined with 5ish seconds between hemo crits and 10 ish between deadly crits (averages).
since the buff lasts 7 seconds a single rupture for sub has 3 chances after criting to crit again to obtain 100% uptime. with a 40% chance those ods are very good that rupture alone would give 100% uptime add in hemo glyph and deadly and your have your guarenteed 100% uptime as long as you keep your own dots up

You also have to remember the importance of getting it up to 3 stacks as fast as possible; the Warlock loses a lot of damage if he has all his DoTs up before you get DI to 3 stacks. This is where the faster ticks of casters shines. I'm sure it's possible that a Sub Rogue could be just as good as a caster in getting the stacks up, but I don't think that's the case.

It's still mainly about who gains most from the Haste, and as far as I know, a Sub Rogue doesn't gain more than the ideal casters.

[Kael]

Rupture alone is nearly an 80% chance to renew, counting deadly and hemo bleed it's significantly higher. DoTs don't account for much of our damage compared to Boomkins (35%ish) or Fire mages (45%ish) or Spriests (53%ish) but the 3% haste models (for my rogue's gear, assuming it's additive and not multiplicative, which I didn't check) to be around an 1,000 DPS increase before counting the ~~180 from the DoT increase (including T12 2p). It's not NEARLY as impressive as keeping it on one of the main DoT casters, but that's because of the DoT DPS benefit, not the warlock, unless I've missed something.

The likelihood of ending up in a run with no SPriest, no Fire Mage, and no Boomkin whilst having a subtlety rogue and a warlock seems sketchy at best, but it's worth mentioning, no?

[Siri]

Is the damage reduction from ES + Feint additive for 80% reduction or multiplicative for a 65% reduction?

DoTs don't account for much of our damage compared to Boomkins (35%ish) or Fire mages (45%ish) or Spriests (53%ish)

Even on single target spriests have a higher contribution from dots than that, you seem to have forgotten that Mind Flay counts as a dot. 45% for fire mages and 35% for moonkins also sounds a bit high.

[Synexlol]

Good lord I brain-farted again. In the middle of raiding so I'm a little distracted. I completely forgot about the periodic damage. That makes it far better for a DoT based class, with Ferals being the only viable melee as far as I can see. Not worth it for a Rogue of any spec as long as there's a DoT class in the raid.

@Lohe, it's multiplicative I believe, though I've never tested/heard anything about it. It could be additive, but I doubt it is. If anyone knows for sure feel free to correct me.

[Siri]

@Lohe, it's multiplicative I believe, though I've never tested/heard anything about it. It could be additive, but I doubt it is.

I'm thinking it's multiplicative too but I never take things for granted :P

[Kael]

Using T13H results from http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html ... the boomkin listing was too high, accurately ~~27-28%. Fire is accurate; combustion, ignite, part of pyroblast, and living bomb account for a huge amount of their DPS. Missed devouring plague for Spriests, which puts them around 63% from DoTs -- SWD and Mind Blast take a higher proportion than they used to. Makes a pretty straightforward top-down priority as far as the 3% DoT damage buff is concerned.

[Deleted]

Using T13H results from http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html ... the boomkin listing was too high, accurately ~~27-28%. Fire is accurate; combustion, ignite, part of pyroblast, and living bomb account for a huge amount of their DPS. Missed devouring plague for Spriests, which puts them around 63% from DoTs -- SWD and Mind Blast take a higher proportion than they used to. Makes a pretty straightforward top-down priority as far as the 3% DoT damage buff is concerned.

so are sub's 5th after feral druids? i can't find a list that goes past those 3 in warlock section for 4.3 so was seeing if anyone had anything from the rogue side up

also my 10 man run i do has no balance druid no shadow priest and no fire mage, but has x y z other classes and we have a warlock about 80% of the time so i am trying to find out who it benefits most after those 3 but can't find where i as sub would fit in.

[Siri]

Using T13H results from http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html ... the boomkin listing was too high, accurately ~~27-28%. Fire is accurate; combustion, ignite, part of pyroblast, and living bomb account for a huge amount of their DPS. Missed devouring plague for Spriests, which puts them around 63% from DoTs -- SWD and Mind Blast take a higher proportion than they used to. Makes a pretty straightforward top-down priority as far as the 3% DoT damage buff is concerned.

I was looking at actual logs and even the top scoring mage logs I was looking at (which would have favourable crit numbers and as such a high than normal contribution of ignite) and they're not getting close to simcrafts numbers at least. Maybe better gear just changes the numbers that much. I prefer taking data from actual logs though.

Looked at simcraft for spriests too now, they're at 70% there too. (71.2 actually)

Anyway, this is getting off-topic as sub rogues are a really crappy target for DI

[Deleted]

Anyway, this is getting off-topic as sub rogues are a really crappy target for DI

you obviously havn't read much of this thread as we have proved that sub has a pritty much 100% uptime on DI and gains from the 3% haste in energy regen as well as attack speed. and my guesing is that it's currently 2nd best melle under feral kitty whi itself is 4th in the list meaning sub rogues are 5th best dps spec for DI which is far from "really crappy" .

[Siri]

you obviously havn't read much of this thread as we have proved that sub has a pritty much 100% uptime on DI and gains from the 3% haste in energy regen as well as attack speed. and my guesing is that it's currently 2nd best melle under feral kitty whi itself is 4th in the list meaning sub rogues are 5th best dps spec for DI which is far from "really crappy" .

I have read the thread.
Sub rogues are about 33% below one of the good specs, that's crappy.

Edit: They're also not the fifth best target for DI. Where do you even get your information?

[Matutin]

I have read the thread.
Sub rogues are about 33% below one of the good specs, that's crappy.

Edit: They're also not the fifth best target for DI. Where do you even get your information?

No, you don't. It seems that you are getting the info from the same place, right?

[Siri]

No, you don't. It seems that you are getting the info from the same place, right?

People in the thread have been guesstimating at best whereas I've actually run simcraft to get the results.
An aff lock putting DI on a sub rogue is 2975 ~4000 raid dps. Putting it on a moonkin/spriest/firemage is 4400-4700 dps.

Edit: simcraft bugs :[

[Deleted]

People in the thread have been guesstimating at best whereas I've actually run simcraft to get the results.
An aff lock putting DI on a sub rogue is ~2975 raid dps. Putting it on a moonkin/spriest/firemage is 4400-4700 dps.

hi, thanks for those numbers a quick question to ask though, is that 2975 dps the Rogues gain in dps or the Raids gain in dps?

if the raids which portion is the warlocks and which portion is the boomkin/spest/fmage?

as i would assume all can keep 100% uptime the warlocks dps should be identical? possibly only exceded if the boomkin rejuves himself to "stack up" the warlocks di before the pull. otherwise it should be identical.

[Siri]

It is the overall gain of the raid, I didn't really check what belonged to who but they all provide a 98-99% uptime of DI for the warlock. 100% is only realistic if you have 100% crit chance on your dots.

[Deleted]

It is the overall gain of the raid, I didn't really check what belonged to who but they all provide a 98-99% uptime of DI for the warlock. 100% is only realistic if you have 100% crit chance on your dots.

thanks for confirming uptime.

stil shame i was hoping sub would gain more o well

[Matutin]

People in the thread have been guesstimating at best whereas I've actually run simcraft to get the results.
An aff lock putting DI on a sub rogue is ~2975 raid dps. Putting it on a moonkin/spriest/firemage is 4400-4700 dps.

I was talking about sub being way below the other 2 rogue specs, on DS there are a few fights where sub way better than combat/mut.