Leesa/StyleClash's Tier List

[PizzaSHARK]

If you're using those 3 as example, I ask, why would you pick Blitz against them? It's a third tier pick. It's like putting Poppy up there, and expecting her to not struggle versus high harass.

The way you said "Even Galio.." makes me believe you doubt the viability of a Galio pick as well. Galio has amazing harass and lane control, and a built in sustain. Put a Chalice on him, and it's very, very, very difficult to out harass a Galio, even if you're on Gangplank.

When playing versus an aggressive Galio, I have to level my Remove Scurvy after Parrlay to keep up with the harass.

Galio's my #2 boy, right after Blitz. He's effective up top, but he's not the best by any means. Chalice is a crap item on him that's just a waste of cash. Mana crystal+potions is more than enough. If you want early AP, grab a ring (or two.) I prefer crystal so I can get my Catalyst quicker. Chalice would only be preferable if you have to take mid as Galio, where that extra MR would be more beneficial than the extra AP or mana. Even then, you'd sell your Chalice to finish your RoA, anyway.

Chalice is just an overall bad item for Galio... I'd consider it noob bait, much like Manamune on Blitz. You don't need the mana regen and it only delays your build. Rings delay your build, too, but one ring costs less than a chalice and they also provide HP (which is more effective than MR if you can assume you'll take ANY physical damage.) Like I said, I can maybe see getting Chalice if you're taking solo mid, but that's a bad situation for Galio to begin with.

EDIT: I'm saying that there are no solo tops that Blitz does particularly well against. The two main things you need as a solo top are sustain and harass, in that order. Blitz has neither. You don't even have to take top picks to find someone that will shit on him in solo top - just about anyone that's capable of doing it can do it better than he does.

[Deleted]

Galio's my #2 boy, right after Blitz. He's effective up top, but he's not the best by any means. Chalice is a crap item on him that's just a waste of cash. Mana crystal+potions is more than enough. If you want early AP, grab a ring (or two.) I prefer crystal so I can get my Catalyst quicker. Chalice would only be preferable if you have to take mid as Galio, where that extra MR would be more beneficial than the extra AP or mana. Even then, you'd sell your Chalice to finish your RoA, anyway.

Chalice is just an overall bad item for Galio... I'd consider it noob bait, much like Manamune on Blitz. You don't need the mana regen and it only delays your build. Rings delay your build, too, but one ring costs less than a chalice and they also provide HP (which is more effective than MR if you can assume you'll take ANY physical damage.) Like I said, I can maybe see getting Chalice if you're taking solo mid, but that's a bad situation for Galio to begin with.

EDIT: I'm saying that there are no solo tops that Blitz does particularly well against. The two main things you need as a solo top are sustain and harass, in that order. Blitz has neither. You don't even have to take top picks to find someone that will shit on him in solo top - just about anyone that's capable of doing it can do it better than he does.

I disagree on Chalice being bad. It gives you everything you need as Galio to sustain in lane. Mana regen, cheap MR, which then transitions into AP. A Chalice on Galio, is like a Gp/5 on any other top lane in regards to sustain, except it has everything he wants and needs, except maybe health. While I agree Manamune on Blitz is bad. A Chalice Galio can stay in the lane longer, especially if running teleport (Which he should, if he's top). Catalyst after Chalice and boots 1 (or Merc Treads if you're farmed). It's still possible to get the RoA/Banshees by 20 mins, perhaps latest 22 minutes.
There's a lot of top laners that don't have sustain. Riven, Talon, any casters if you run double AP meta, Jarvan, Wukong etc etc. How you itemize to get around it is what sets it apart. Sure, Blitz has no in-build sustain, but there's nothing stopping him getting a Philostone and a Heart of Gold. After that, you itemize around what's being farmed. Who wants to Dive a blitz with say, a Glacial Shroud.
I think you're looking a little bit too hard into it, because Blitz has amazing counter-gank capability, especially if you have a competent jungler. A knock-up, a hook, a silence, a speed boost.
I feel it warrents at least tier 3, but I can understand your trepidation, until you see a decently played Solo Blitz

[PizzaSHARK]

Galio doesn't need the regen, that's the thing. You get the same AP and 100 HP from a ring for less cost, without having to return to base. The only time you'd want chalice over crystal+potions or a ring start is if you know you'll be laning vs AP. Otherwise, it's simply unnecessary and just delays your build without providing much of anything useful.

[Deleted]

Galio doesn't need the regen, that's the thing. You get the same AP and 100 HP from a ring for less cost, without having to return to base. The only time you'd want chalice over crystal+potions or a ring start is if you know you'll be laning vs AP. Otherwise, it's simply unnecessary and just delays your build without providing much of anything useful.

But, the ring doesn't go anywhere either? Start with Meki Pendant and 2 pots, or boots and 3 pots. I don't see the argument here? Dorans is the best gold per stat item, but, with Galios mana costs, it makes the regen on Chalice actually good...

And if you start with Ring, you're going to go back regardless, as you're going to get harassed.

[Deleted]

What's up with cassio in god tier and orianna and Anivia below? I see way more anivias and oriannas then cassio's. care to explain? kinda curious as to why

[PizzaSHARK]

But, the ring doesn't go anywhere either? Start with Meki Pendant and 2 pots, or boots and 3 pots. I don't see the argument here? Dorans is the best gold per stat item, but, with Galios mana costs, it makes the regen on Chalice actually good...

And if you start with Ring, you're going to go back regardless, as you're going to get harassed.

Ring costs less than Chalice and is more effective per-gold. Again, Galio doesn't need the MP regen unless you're just mindlessly spamming (hint: stop doing that.) I usually run crystal+potions and never, ever have mana issues.

Chalice build is more vulnerable to harass than Doran's Ring build, especially if there's a significant physical component (which your extra MR doesn't do shit against.) Doran's Ring also gives you that 15 AP immediately, rather than making you wait for the first return trip for it.

I don't run Ring myself, I don't feel it's necessary. But if you're going to buy something that's gonna delay your Catalyst, buy a Doran's Ring. You're really just wasting your money building a Chalice UNLESS you are doing solo mid versus an AP hero, at which point that 30 MR will pay for itself and then some.

Again, Chalice on Galio is like Manamune on Blitz - it's pure noob bait.

What's up with cassio in god tier and orianna and Anivia below? I see way more anivias and oriannas then cassio's. care to explain? kinda curious as to why

Cass has godly harass and is just overall very useful. Lots of burst damage due to Twin Fang, lots of utility with Miasma's slow and Noxious Blast's speed boost, and her ult's pretty awesome as an AOE stun.

I dunno if I'd say she's better than Orianna, but then I haven't really seen Orianna much since she finally got nerfed down to a sane level.

[Kurdiern]

What's up with cassio in god tier and orianna and Anivia below? I see way more anivias and oriannas then cassio's. care to explain? kinda curious as to why

Cass is sleeper. Like how Morgana was for a while, she's an incredibly strong pick that people just don't recognize. I don't understand why, maybe the idea of a more sustained damage AP caster turns them off, maybe they don't like playing a more complex caster.

She's also more expensive than both the champions you listed, so maybe

[Fiddlesnarf]

Second Tier Picks (Strong picks)

Wukong (Top Lane)

Third Tier Picks (Good picks)

Yorick (Top Lane)

I strongly disagree with this. I play both of these champs and I say that Yorick should go up to 2nd tier. Wukong is not a good top laner, sadly he doesn't really belong anywhere at the moment.

[Deleted]

I strongly disagree with this. I play both of these champs and I say that Yorick should go up to 2nd tier. Wukong is not a good top laner, sadly he doesn't really belong anywhere at the moment.

Wukong scales much better into late game than Yorick does. Yorick is incredible harass in lane, but after that, he doesn't contribute anything, other than an ultimate, which, is easily dealt with. He's too...Zilean-ish for my liking.

---------- Post added 2011-10-03 at 08:17 AM ----------

Ring costs less than Chalice and is more effective per-gold. Again, Galio doesn't need the MP regen unless you're just mindlessly spamming (hint: stop doing that.) I usually run crystal+potions and never, ever have mana issues.

Chalice build is more vulnerable to harass than Doran's Ring build, especially if there's a significant physical component (which your extra MR doesn't do shit against.) Doran's Ring also gives you that 15 AP immediately, rather than making you wait for the first return trip for it.

I don't run Ring myself, I don't feel it's necessary. But if you're going to buy something that's gonna delay your Catalyst, buy a Doran's Ring. You're really just wasting your money building a Chalice UNLESS you are doing solo mid versus an AP hero, at which point that 30 MR will pay for itself and then some.

Again, Chalice on Galio is like Manamune on Blitz - it's pure noob bait.



Cass has godly harass and is just overall very useful. Lots of burst damage due to Twin Fang, lots of utility with Miasma's slow and Noxious Blast's speed boost, and her ult's pretty awesome as an AOE stun.

I dunno if I'd say she's better than Orianna, but then I haven't really seen Orianna much since she finally got nerfed down to a sane level.

Pretty much. Cassio has a strong game regardless of what stage of the game you're in, gradually reducing into late-late game, where AD carries always shine. Cass has sustained, heavy harass in lane, amazing creep clearing capability allowing her to gank top/bot, while pushing mid lane to the turret. Her ultimate can turn team fights if landed properly, and the amount of damage she does with her combos is borderline OP.

Also, champion price has nothing to do with how the list is sorted. Some champions are tier 1, that cost nothing (Morganna) for example, GP is 3150

---------- Post added 2011-10-03 at 08:21 AM ----------

Ring costs less than Chalice and is more effective per-gold. Again, Galio doesn't need the MP regen unless you're just mindlessly spamming (hint: stop doing that.) I usually run crystal+potions and never, ever have mana issues.

Chalice build is more vulnerable to harass than Doran's Ring build, especially if there's a significant physical component (which your extra MR doesn't do shit against.) Doran's Ring also gives you that 15 AP immediately, rather than making you wait for the first return trip for it.

I don't run Ring myself, I don't feel it's necessary. But if you're going to buy something that's gonna delay your Catalyst, buy a Doran's Ring. You're really just wasting your money building a Chalice UNLESS you are doing solo mid versus an AP hero, at which point that 30 MR will pay for itself and then some.

Again, Chalice on Galio is like Manamune on Blitz - it's pure noob bait.

I know super-aggressive Galios who will harass non-stop, especially if purple side. Being outright aggressive is not a problem, if you know how to ward, so saying you shouldn't push is moot. If you only have to ward the ramp to blue (If your middle lane wards your wraith ramp) then I don't see how pushing your lane hard, especially after level 5 is detrimental. With a Q+E combo, you can clear whole waves, and choose to either disappear to middle lane to gank, or, stay at turret harassing. Perhaps I've just seen too many aggressive Galios. Another factor is, a lot of jungles have an AP ability or element to their game. Udyr, Fiddle, Amumu, Nunu, All AP. While you won't get ganked if you ward properly, you will be dragoning asap, so again, why not get that extra AP, for dragon fights, counter jungling, and counter ganking?

[Fiddlesnarf]

Wukong scales much better into late game than Yorick does. Yorick is incredible harass in lane, but after that, he doesn't contribute anything, other than an ultimate, which, is easily dealt with. He's too...Zilean-ish for my liking.

Yea, I'd agree except that there is this thing called the laning phase, which Wukong is horrible at and Yorick is godly at. Wukong won't have much chance half the time to scale into late game because he won't be able to farm early game, every other top laner can zone and harrass Wukong to death.
I say Yorick is mch better than you claim because very few champs can keep up with Yorick in the lane, even fewer can drive Yorick out of the lane. A lot can and will be decided by how well the lane phase goes, who gets farmed and who gets denied.
I play Yorick quite a bit and I know why people don't think he scales well, its because they level up his E, then W, the Q last, now I always level up E first, its great, but I only level up W over Q until the lane phase is over, then Q becomes better at killing champs because you'll get into teamfights and skirmishes where enemies won't have easy access to turrets to run back to half the time. Yorick Q scales very well with AD, I think it has over 1:1 ratio, so it hits like a truck.

Thats my opinion, I disagree with yours, but this isn't my tier list.

[Deleted]

Yea, I'd agree except that there is this thing called the laning phase,

Thanks, I didn't realize there was anything called that. You've enlightened me, if only I'd said:

Yorick is incredible harass in lane

Taking a lane as a sole reason to put someone there isn't the right way to sort a tier list. Ashe is incredibly strong with the right team comp, should I put her as tier 1 if the stars align? Taking in too many variables will put any champion as tier 1.

Wukong is by no means weak, and a lot of champions top lane don't have built in sustain. There are items for this purpose. Philostone, Wriggles to name two of the most popular. Yorick is the mordekaiser pre-nerf. He pushes his lane hard, but if you're competent, you know how to last hit under a turret, even more, have a competent jungler and you'll take away all the pressure Yorick has. But that's variables. See how they can counter each argument?

every other top laner can zone and harrass Wukong to death.

Have you actually seen a Wukong that's above 1500 elo? He's incredible harass, great gank escape, and an ultimate that is godlike, which now does scale with AD.

But I digree, perhaps Yorick is worth a tier 2 slot from laning phase. Agreed, it is very strong, if played right, and when you know when to be aggressive, and when to be defensive. I will bump him up for now, as I kind of agree with what you said regarding him, but not regarding Wukong.

[Fiddlesnarf]

Taking a lane as a sole reason to put someone there isn't the right way to sort a tier list. Ashe is incredibly strong with the right team comp, should I put her as tier 1 if the stars align? Taking in too many variables will put any champion as tier 1.

Yorick's strength isn't only his laning, I know he can't really burst anyone down, but build him off-tanky and he becomes a monster during teamfights, he has great utility in fights with his Slowing Ghoul and Ultimate.

Yorick is the mordekaiser pre-nerf. He pushes his lane hard, but if you're competent, you know how to last hit under a turret, even more, have a competent jungler and you'll take away all the pressure Yorick has. But that's variables. See how they can counter each argument?

A smart Yorick won't use his ghouls to push the lane, but to harrass the enemy champion, but even turret hugging won't save you from his ghoul spam. Jungler ganks counter any lane, that goes without saying.

Wukong is by no means weak, and a lot of champions top lane don't have built in sustain. There are items for this purpose. Philostone, Wriggles to name two of the most popular.

Have you actually seen a Wukong that's above 1500 elo? He's incredible harass, great gank escape, and an ultimate that is godlike, which now does scale with AD.

You're right that there are some top laners that don't have innate sustain. Look at Jax and Talon, both great top laners with no sustain built in, but look at what they do have over Wukong.
Talon has spammable ranged harrass, instant teleport/silence, so Talon has better harrass and a counter harrass with his silence.
Jax would actually be a more fair fight for Wukong, one of the few for him imo, both of them have to be in range to do anything, but I seriously doubt Wukong could ever 1v1 Jax, it may seem fairer laning, but when push comes to shove Jax would win, plus Jax will have better sustain due to always rushing Gunblade.
As for Wukong's ult, lategame is is pretty good, but early game its better to just use it for the knockup then cancel it and continue with your regular abilities.
Wukong's teamfight utility is fantastic, but outside of his ult he isn't that great at all, many other bruisers/tanky dps outshine him in ever way.

Thanks, I didn't realize there was anything called that. You've enlightened me, if only I'd said:

Don't get bent out of shape, I wasn't trying to be snarky.

[Deleted]

I think you're underestimating the damage Wukong can do with a tanky-DPS/Lifesteal hybrid build. He has a gap closer, an escape, and a straight up armor reduction instant strike, which you can time after an auto-attack. With Trinity, Atmogs, Merc, Bloodthirster, FoN, he has great damage from his combo, a tonne of lifesteal, an escape to reset aggro, as well as the ultimate. I still believe he brings more to the table than Yorick when farmed, especially in team fights. Sure, he can get bullied in a lane against some champions, but he does well versus others. Especially utilizing top lane brush. It forces people to push the lane to be able to fight in the brush, which leaves you open to ganking and counter-ganking. A smart Wukong utilizes everything in the lane, and knows when to harass, and when to defensive, as should all champions.

But again, I still think he's tier 2 worthy, and have bumped up Yorick for now.

[PizzaSHARK]

I know super-aggressive Galios who will harass non-stop, especially if purple side. Being outright aggressive is not a problem, if you know how to ward, so saying you shouldn't push is moot. If you only have to ward the ramp to blue (If your middle lane wards your wraith ramp) then I don't see how pushing your lane hard, especially after level 5 is detrimental. With a Q+E combo, you can clear whole waves, and choose to either disappear to middle lane to gank, or, stay at turret harassing. Perhaps I've just seen too many aggressive Galios. Another factor is, a lot of jungles have an AP ability or element to their game. Udyr, Fiddle, Amumu, Nunu, All AP. While you won't get ganked if you ward properly, you will be dragoning asap, so again, why not get that extra AP, for dragon fights, counter jungling, and counter ganking?

Because it delays your core, basically. Again, I don't do anything but crystal+potions... but I'd still prefer a ring over chalice because it's cheaper, the HP is effective against both physical AND magic, and provides the same amount of AP immediately.

[Deleted]

Didn't mean AP, meant MR. However, this isn't really the place for an item discussion :P we're arguing the viability of one item in a build, as long as he is where you think he should be, then it's done right :P

[Fiddlesnarf]

I think you're underestimating the damage Wukong can do with a tanky-DPS/Lifesteal hybrid build. He has a gap closer, an escape, and a straight up armor reduction instant strike, which you can time after an auto-attack. With Trinity, Atmogs, Merc, Bloodthirster, FoN, he has great damage from his combo, a tonne of lifesteal, an escape to reset aggro, as well as the ultimate. I still believe he brings more to the table than Yorick when farmed, especially in team fights. Sure, he can get bullied in a lane against some champions, but he does well versus others. Especially utilizing top lane brush. It forces people to push the lane to be able to fight in the brush, which leaves you open to ganking and counter-ganking. A smart Wukong utilizes everything in the lane, and knows when to harass, and when to defensive, as should all champions.

But again, I still think he's tier 2 worthy, and have bumped up Yorick for now.

Just curious, not disagreeing with you here, but who do you think Wukong beats in lane and who do you think Wukong can not beat ever?

I use to main Wukong when I was low elo and would go bot lane with a good partner, but haven't used him top lane over GP/WW/Yorick in a long time.

[Deleted]

Just curious, not disagreeing with you here, but who do you think Wukong beats in lane?

Straight up, same skill level versus same skill level, I'd say: Jax until he snowballs (Gunblade and tier 2 boots), Tryndamere, Nidalee (Until she becomes unstoppable push push push-alee), Garen once you're like 4. Renekton for me would be another you'd go 50/50 with, and would depend on who CS'd that little bit harder.

[Fiddlesnarf]

You think Wukong beats Garen? Hmm... I dunno, that silence can stop him from Decoying after his E+Q combo, also if he does Decoy Garen can still spin and put on some damage to Wukong.

[Deleted]

You think Wukong beats Garen? Hmm... I dunno, that silence can stop him from Decoying after his E+Q combo, also if he does Decoy Garen can still spin and put on some damage to Wukong.

When you Decoy, it leaves the image where you were. You shouldn't be in melee range of Garen, as he would have to run to you to get his Q off. If you juke the silence, and do an unexpected path away from Garen, you've just negated all harass, and have a 5-8 second window to put some damage on him with the only retaliation being auto attacks.

Let him lead, as it's in Garens best interest to do damage to finish with ultimate.

[Fiddlesnarf]

When you Decoy, it leaves the image where you were. You shouldn't be in melee range of Garen, as he would have to run to you to get his Q off. If you juke the silence, and do an unexpected path away from Garen, you've just negated all harass, and have a 5-8 second window to put some damage on him with the only retaliation being auto attacks.

Let him lead, as it's in Garens best interest to do damage to finish with ultimate.

If the Garen is good I think he should have good enough reflexes to be able to silence right before Wukong stealths, granted he hits the real Wukong and not a Nimbus Strike clone.
I don't think Wukong vs. Garen is unwinnable for Wukong, but I can't imagine it would easy in the slightest. Decoy sure would help Wukong tons in this setup though.

You have sparked my interest in taking Wukong top lane in ranked again, I might think about it.