Prot guidelines and FAQ

[Pua]

I'm not sure how to mention Heavy Repercussions, got any suggestions?

I agree with your assessment, Mest - the talent does exactly what it says on the tin, and I'm not sure how else you'd cover it meaningfully.

[Deleted]

So... on the topic of dps increase as prot. When off-tanking, I suppose you should change to berserker stance asap, to increase your damage and spam attacks happily without threatening the low-vengeance tank that has taken over. You only lose Revenge (which since you aren't being hit...) and Thunderclap (which you can use changing to battle stance once per 15 seconds). Now, if you are sub-20%... devastate spam + shield slam or execute spam + shield slam? Execute beats devastate even with the low rage income and no sword'n'board procs?

PD: Heavy repercussions... I suppose the only mentions should be towards increasing its value, ie: using offensive trinkets during Shield Block (usually trinkets CD match well with the 30 secs CD), use Colossus Smash only during Shield Block (not only to push crits due to changing stances out ot the table, but to take advantage of the double damage on Shield Slam too. Also, both skills have the same CD, 30 secs)

[Mammoth]

So... on the topic of dps increase as prot. When off-tanking, I suppose you should change to berserker stance asap, to increase your damage and spam attacks happily without threatening the low-vengeance tank that has taken over. You only lose Revenge (which since you aren't being hit...) and Thunderclap (which you can use changing to battle stance once per 15 seconds). Now, if you are sub-20%... devastate spam + shield slam or execute spam + shield slam? Execute beats devastate even with the low rage income and no sword'n'board procs?

PD: Heavy repercussions... I suppose the only mentions should be towards increasing its value, ie: using offensive trinkets during Shield Block (usually trinkets CD match well with the 30 secs CD), use Colossus Smash only during Shield Block (not only to push crits due to changing stances out ot the table, but to take advantage of the double damage on Shield Slam too. Also, both skills have the same CD, 30 secs)

A mention on off-tank DPS would be neat. I've always used Battle Stance so I have access to Shattering Throw and Overpower procs (which are fairly frequent given my 0 exp).

However, I've never really ran numbers on what is best.

[Pua]

So... on the topic of dps increase as prot. When off-tanking, I suppose you should change to berserker stance asap, to increase your damage and spam attacks happily without threatening the low-vengeance tank that has taken over. You only lose Revenge (which since you aren't being hit...) and Thunderclap (which you can use changing to battle stance once per 15 seconds). Now, if you are sub-20%... devastate spam + shield slam or execute spam + shield slam? Execute beats devastate even with the low rage income and no sword'n'board procs?

Essentially, yes - switching to 'zerker is good for many reasons when not actually tanking anything. I use Battle Stance, however, because I still like the idea of the 5% damage reduction, I prefer Charge to Intercept, I use Thunderclap to refresh Rend and I have access to Shattering Throw which is a great debuff to apply. You won't have Tactical Mastery, which means switching to 'zerker outside of Rend refreshing is likely to result in a DPS loss thanks to low rage.

And Devastate should probably still beat Execute sub 20%. I'd need to test it, but the additional damage from War Academy, as well as it's far-higher critical strike chance and procs of Sword and Board, make me think Devastate still wins.

Has anyone tested it?

[Mammoth]

If you strafe away from an enemy you can run in full speed but still not show your back to your enemy

What angle is it that mobs start hitting you "in the back"? Is it at 90 degrees or do they have to be further behind you? I've always assumed it to be 90 and strafed in a slight arc so that the boss is at 88 degrees instead. If it is something like 120 degrees, then I can stop worrying about it.

Also while on the subject: You can jump, turn to face the boss, slam your shield up his nose while still travelling at your original speed, such that when you rotate back and land again, you have not lost any movement. I'm pretty sure I'm unable to hit them while strafing at 90 degrees, one of the other reasons I tend to move in a slight arc.

Shield Block checks how much CTC it should convert to critical block when you cast the ability. If possible, use Shield Block just before a dodge trinket or similar runs out for some additional critical block.

.......really? I can pop stuff to give me extra CTC such that I have extra Crit Block during Shield Block, which doesn't expire when the effects end!? Sweet.

[Deleted]

Essentially, yes - switching to 'zerker is good for many reasons when not actually tanking anything. I use Battle Stance, however, because I still like the idea of the 5% damage reduction, I prefer Charge to Intercept, I use Thunderclap to refresh Rend and I have access to Shattering Throw which is a great debuff to apply. You won't have Tactical Mastery, which means switching to 'zerker outside of Rend refreshing is likely to result in a DPS loss thanks to low rage.

And Devastate should probably still beat Execute sub 20%. I'd need to test it, but the additional damage from War Academy, as well as it's far-higher critical strike chance and procs of Sword and Board, make me think Devastate still wins.

Has anyone tested it?

In my experince, I stayed in zerker since you still have charge, intervene and intercept, all remain in all stances thanks to warbringer, and I found myself so rage starved as to not lose anything changing to battle... Although the overpower point is a good one. Though with the gear I have now I soft capped expertise and hit, in order to help with dps in H-Ragnaros. I will look a bit if the execute vs devastate was talked about before, will say something.

[MorphexEU]

You turn your back when you've turned more than 90 degress from facing the boss, so to "draw it, it would look like this;

---> |>

Where "---" is the boss, and you are " |". The arrow indicates which way you run, while the line indicates which way you face. Horrible explenation. But i am quite used to the strafe kiting as i do it on four chars every week now, shannox HC ftw! :P

PS; use some fantasy!

Mhe, maybe try to explain it in another way. You face north, boss face east. Making you have boss on west side of you (left side). You now run to east (right) without getting a full hit. If you now start running south-east (right and turning with your back as a "middle" point), you'll get fucked. You simply turn your back to the boss that way. If you start running north-east (making your front your "middle" point), you'll be fine as you start facing the boss.

[Deleted]

Ok point taken, but still could add a simple trash pull sequence something like:
1. battle shout
2. shield block
3. charge
4. rend
5. thunderclap

...

surely you do at least those things for every trash pull, no matter that trash packs may be slightly different from each other? (of course i mean aoe trash packs with no cc involved.)

As said multiple times, every trash pull is different, so the "best" way to do them all "right" is to simply learn every single trash pull. It sounds a bit stupid but it just comes with the habit of running dungeons, you odn't even think about it once you've run DM 3-4 times it just becomes automatic.

That being said, I have a few "rules" I like to follow when pulling almost every trash pack in the game:
- I always use Thunder Clap first. Then I find time to squeeze in a rend and spread it with the next Thunder Clap. That is because most of the time a dps (or the healer) will have aggro on at least one mob, you risk seeing them get away, then have to taunt, it builds up a lot of stress and just doesnt feel right. I like to have a good snap aggro at the very begining of the fight.
- I tend to Shockwave VERY early, most of the time right after my Rend, or at least when I know everything will be stunned.
- I use the stun time to DemoShout and use shield block once the stun is over.

At first I didn't want to post a real rotation for what I do, because it doesn't feel like one when I do it, but I'll do it anyway, for the sake of clarity.
Charge>TC > Rend > Shockwave > Demoshout > Shieldblock > Thunderclap
And of course Cleave whenever it's possible.

[Deleted]

I've also used Battle Stance for off-tank DPS in the few scenarios it's actually needed/possible. I'm not really sure why, originally I thought it was too much of a hassle to go to Battle Stance for ST then Berserker Stance for the next 15-whatever seconds until SB was back in Defensive Stance and I've stuck to just using Battle Stance.

Regarding Execute vs. Sword & Board, my guess is that you won't have enough rage to support many executes, and that execute wouldn't be stronger than proccing SS anyway. I use Execute as a filler, but it's like, once or twice per burn phase on H Beth'tilac.

I think I'll try wrecking out Executes in Zerker Stance next time I raid.

.......really? I can pop stuff to give me extra CTC such that I have extra Crit Block during Shield Block, which doesn't expire when the effects end!? Sweet.

Yeah well. At least according to the buffs tooltip.





Also yes, I did "refresh" the tooltip by moving the mouse away.

What angle is it that mobs start hitting you "in the back"? Is it at 90 degrees or do they have to be further behind you? I've always assumed it to be 90 and strafed in a slight arc so that the boss is at 88 degrees instead. If it is something like 120 degrees, then I can stop worrying about it.

It's 90 degrees. Take a look at these images (click for larger images):



In this image, I'm turned ~90 degrees away from the Shredder. Standing like this, I could dodge, parry and block.



In this image, I'm turned >90 degrees away from the Shredder. Ironically a miss just occured as I took the screenshot, but I trust you can take my word on that attacks no longer were avoided at this angle.

Also while on the subject: You can jump, turn to face the boss, slam your shield up his nose while still travelling at your original speed, such that when you rotate back and land again, you have not lost any movement. I'm pretty sure I'm unable to hit them while strafing at 90 degrees, one of the other reasons I tend to move in a slight arc.

That's what I do as well. Straferun and jump + turn 90 degrees midair then back every GCD.

[Mammoth]

Okay, its good to be confirmed that it is 90 degrees.

I don't know how the rest of you do it, it's always been something that just developed with me, but I tend to strafe with a 1 degree arc, so the boss is always at 89 degrees. It seems to me that if I just purely strafe there's a 50% chance that the boss will hit me in the back. Too many keyboard driven racing games when I was younger too, because I'm pretty sure I maintain this arc by tapping turn left/right while I strafe at just the right frequency.

(Yeah you read it right, I use all of WASDQE for movement.)

[Brother]

Is turning back and forth midair really needed?
I'm on Rimplimb duty and at the beginning I need to draw him to the right position, while doing this (running sidewards estimated 90°) I'm always able to hit my buttons as I where standing in front of him.

I could constantly turn my camera but this is annoying^^

[Edit] Another question which just came into my mind: How much DPS gain is the 2p t12?
On avarage I do arround 10k dps on Ragnaros normal (without 2p), and one time another Tank with 2p did arround 12k.
Are these numbers ok?

[Deleted]

I don't know how the rest of you do it, it's always been something that just developed with me, but I tend to strafe with a 1 degree arc, so the boss is always at 89 degrees. It seems to me that if I just purely strafe there's a 50% chance that the boss will hit me in the back. Too many keyboard driven racing games when I was younger too, because I'm pretty sure I maintain this arc by tapping turn left/right while I strafe at just the right frequency.

While it doesn't hurt to always be on the safe side, you don't need to. Simply strafing in a straight line will place mobs in a position where they are considered in front of you.

I haven't really tried this on mobs with huge hitboxes, nor with multiple mobs, so by all means keep playing it safe, but it shouldn't be needed.

Is turning back and forth midair really needed?
I'm on Rimplimb duty and at the beginning I need to draw him to the right position, while doing this (running sidewards estimated 90°) I'm always able to hit my buttons as I where standing in front of him.

Are you able to use your abilities while simply strafing? I don't think I'm able to, or perhaps I never paid attention. As I wrote earlier, I always jump and turn every GCD.

[Edit] Another question which just came into my mind: How much DPS gain is the 2p t12?
On avarage I do arround 10k dps on Ragnaros normal (without 2p), and one time another Tank with 2p did arround 12k.
Are these numbers ok?

The 2p bonus did 3.4% of my overall damage on my latest H Ragnaros log. My DPS is usually in the 14k region on that encounter, with minimized offensive stats obviously.

The problem, however, with comparing tank DPS is that your DPS is very dependant on how much time you're in aggro, how much offensive stats you have, how much stamina you have and a large portion of RNG.

[MorphexEU]

A wol from mondays 25man alt raid, where we only had majordomo and ragnaros left. I ended up on 12.4k DPS on my prot warrior, while the prot paladin there ended at 10k. On my paladin the same day i ended at ~13k dps, so i'd say that 10k is the normal minimum. While ~12.5k dps is the normal "decent" dps for a tank on ragnaros. I'd asume i get slightly higher DPS on HC ragnaros because of higher vengeance tho.

Douh, forgot to post the WoL, here you go; http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3e...?s=2717&e=3143

[SilkforCalde]

Not really the thread for it, but you're demonstrably and statistically incorrect. Please refer to any external site you like for the real information, but I recommend RaidBots as it uses the top 100 parses from World of Logs.

If you're throttling against a paladin because of threat, tell him to either:

a) Put on Righteous Fury.
b) Start pressing a few buttons.

Please cite a resource next time, and using a WoL aggregrate such as stateofdps or the site you mentioned is flabbergastingly silly. That says absolutely nothing. A better resource would be linking something such as the damage rankings for Heroic Alysrazor, which magnifies the damage each tanking class does and nothing more.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...razor/10H/dps/

As we can see, druids and warriors are practically tied for the top, DKs are next, and paladins are dead last. An aggregate doesn't really say anything because a lot of tanks don't tend to maximize their dps. Posting the top logs of a fight will show the situation much more clearly because, in that situation, the tanks are definitely trying to maximize their dps so we can see the potential maximum for the class in question.

The post I was replying to, as well, had nothing to do with throttling threat against a paladin. In fact, it was the complete opposite. The player was struggling to hold threat off the paladin, a paladin that had most likely thrown on dps gear and forgotten to turn off RF. My comment about the higher threat threshold of the warrior class was simply to corroborate the fact that the paladin had thrown on dps gear as threat is directly related to damage done.

Good day, sir. Remember in the future: it is best not to declare others to be incorrect when they are correct. It simply makes you look a bit silly.

---------- Post added 2011-10-12 at 03:53 PM ----------

Is turning back and forth midair really needed?
I'm on Rimplimb duty and at the beginning I need to draw him to the right position, while doing this (running sidewards estimated 90°) I'm always able to hit my buttons as I where standing in front of him.

I could constantly turn my camera but this is annoying^^

[Edit] Another question which just came into my mind: How much DPS gain is the 2p t12?
On avarage I do arround 10k dps on Ragnaros normal (without 2p), and one time another Tank with 2p did arround 12k.
Are these numbers ok?

I wouldn't say the 2 piece was worth 2k damage. One nice thing to do is to macro your offensive cooldowns like the mastery w/ str proc trinket, Orc racial, whatever to an ability you use frequently. I use Heroic Strike. I also use Recklessness in tandem with Shield Block to minimize the extra damage intake from Reck as well as to get some almost guaranteed double Shield Slam crits. Use Retaliation as much as you can as well. Switch to battle stance and blow some dps abilities when you aren't tanking.

[Xiun]

I'll just assume the paladin was being a d!ck and kept taunting/keeping up his tank buff.

Now one more, some what stupid question.

In the same BoT run some guy whispered me saying I should use [Obsidium Cleaver], and not the sword I was using [Mandible of Beth'tilac]. His argument was that the cleaver has more mastery on it when it has the same amount of stam, but I assume that having some dodge on my sword might be more beneficial than mastery and some hit reforged into dodge/parry.

So who's right? :|

[Deleted]

The Mandible is better than the Cleaver.

[SilkforCalde]

I'll just assume the paladin was being a d!ck and kept taunting/keeping up his tank buff.

Now one more, some what stupid question.

In the same BoT run some guy whispered me saying I should use [Obsidium Cleaver], and not the sword I was using [Mandible of Beth'tilac]. His argument was that the cleaver has more mastery on it when it has the same amount of stam, but I assume that having some dodge on my sword might be more beneficial than mastery and some hit reforged into dodge/parry.

So who's right? :|

The Mandible is better for survivability. The Cleaver is better for damage. If you are unhittable with both, then the argument could be pretty close, but if you are not unhittable then the Mandible is absolutely superior.

The race of your warrior could make a difference as the Cleaver gives 3 expertise to Orcs, but still, that's just more damage. You want unhittable, then you can start thinking of EH vs avoidance vs damage done. Unhittable first, the rest after.

[Deleted]

Cleared 6/7hm today, but couldn't get a good shot at the execute vs devastate thing (I took Beth at 19% and killed it before switching tanks again :S)... Though from the single execute I got on it, it does look that execute humiliates devastate as long as your vigilance let's you keep a decent level of vengeance (ie Beth&Ragnaros are good examples, specially since you still receive damage while offtanking). Of course, the executes while tanking Baleroc/Majordomo are tremendous (~35k, 70~crit, spammed due to the influx of rage). Being firelands heroic so nerfed right now, I suppose the idea of staying in battle/berserker while shield block + 4pc bonus is up (to cover critical blocks) it's not that bad if you want to rank a bit. But it may probe a bad idea when the heroic modes start being hard again.

Someone got a good shot while clearing tonight?

[Pua]

Please cite a resource next time, and using a WoL aggregrate such as stateofdps or the site you mentioned is flabbergastingly silly. That says absolutely nothing. A better resource would be linking something such as the damage rankings for Heroic Alysrazor, which magnifies the damage each tanking class does and nothing more.

Please tell me you're kidding. You think the average parsing from the top 100 ranks of a spec per fight (where people ARE pressing their damage buttons for high performance) is "flabbergastingly silly", but comparing a single encounter where rage tanks are strong thanks to the vagaries of their resource is better?

Um, no. Just no.

You'd be better looking at something like Baleroc, which is stand-and-hit from the tanking point of view, and where do we find the average warrior?

Dead last.

As we can see, druids and warriors are practically tied for the top, DKs are next, and paladins are dead last. An aggregate doesn't really say anything because a lot of tanks don't tend to maximize their dps.

Hence why RaidBots using the top 100, where players ARE trying to maximise their DPS, is better than your spurious reference to the one fight where rage tanks are disproportionately powerful.

And guess what?

Over the top 100 parsed averages, warriors are STILL behind paladins.

The post I was replying to, as well, had nothing to do with throttling threat against a paladin. In fact, it was the complete opposite. The player was struggling to hold threat off the paladin, a paladin that had most likely thrown on dps gear and forgotten to turn off RF. My comment about the higher threat threshold of the warrior class was simply to corroborate the fact that the paladin had thrown on dps gear as threat is directly related to damage done.

Re-read the post I replied to. The clue to my commentary is to be found within.

Good day, sir. Remember in the future: it is best not to declare others to be incorrect when they are correct. It simply makes you look a bit silly.

At the risk of receiving an infraction for trolling, all I can really say is "lawl". You're missing the facts so blindly, I just don't know whether or not YOU'RE trolling.

[MorphexEU]

From someones signature;
"Three questions you should ask yourself before speaking:
Does this need to be said?
Does this need to be said by me?
Does this need to be said by me now?" - Craig Ferguson

Think about it.