Update: Added a new response to some feedback.

Patch 5.4.2 PTR - Build 17585

Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.

Update: So a couple things I wanted to bring up in addition to what I posted earlier. The first was that we're of course refining our questing experience, you may have heard a bit about it from BlizzCon, and that expands to max level content as well. In Mists of Pandaria there was quite a bit of outdoor content at max level, but it was almost entirely in the form of dailies. From BlizzCon we shared we're looking to provide something quite a bit more story driven like the 5.1 Operation Shieldwall/Dominance Offensive with some of the exploration lessons we learned from the Timeless Isle, and that extends to the max level experience as well. We want the transition at max level not to be questing and story to a harsh "now you do dailies", but something that's more natural and feels a lot like the leveling experience just at max level for better reward. And so that goes back to all of the reasons I gave before about how flight interrupts some of the core mechanics we think present the best leveling and questing experience, and I thought it'd be good to point out that it'll also play a big role at max level due to our questing refinements.

The second thing is we really like when flying feels like a reward and something you've earned for each new expansion or area. It's such a powerful ability and we look back at BC (at least for epic riding) or Wrath and those were really big keystone achievements for us as players (mainly because they had some pretty huge gold costs on them...). Regardless of the unlock method though it was one of the bigger moments when you unlocked flying, took to the skies, and were able to see the world from an entirely different vantage because for most of us it wasn't easily attainable. Our plan has been to recapture some of that but make it a bit cooler, and while we don't have specifics just yet, it'll be something more involved than just paying gold; something that further emphasizes how powerful flight is. Unlocking it won't just be level 100 on the day 6.1 comes out with some gold, but something you'll be working toward over the course of the initial expansion release, and 6.1 will introduce the final steps to complete it. Think of something like a mini Legendary cloak quest. It's such a enormous power to be able to fly we really want it to be more of a key moment when you unlock it, and something that feels like an accomplishment more than just shelling out some gold like we've had in the past.

Anyway, I felt like those two things were worth spelling out.

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This article was originally published in forum thread: Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch, Hearthstone Beta Keys started by chaud View original post
Comments 1056 Comments
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    So flying is no longer meant to ever be used in current content. Good to know.
  1. Xilurm's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by theycallmenannerpuss View Post
    So what they're saying is that I should unsub as soon as the expansion hits, and then resub when the first major patch hits? You got it, Blizz!
    It's good to know that people who actualy like playing the game instead of whining will be playing for the first couple of months. Too bad it's not going to last.
  1. Rafal's Avatar
    Get ready guys for one of the stupidest things I've ever said

    Here is my terrible terrible analogy for flying vs no flying mounts in attempt to debunk the "if you like using ground mounts, no one is stopping you from using them" argument.

    Example: America, America has a lot of obese people who use cars. Cars are a convenient and quick way to travel. If these people could use other means of transportation such as biking or walking they might end up being healthier. But because cars exist and are generally the most convenient way to travel they will be used in most cases. Unfortunately even people of healthy weight have to use cars in order to stay competitive. No one is going to hire someone who can't get to work on time because of they refuse to use a car. In this way you can't say "you don't have to use a car because I use one" because frankly it isn't realistic in a world with an economy.
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafal View Post
    Get ready guys for one of the stupidest things I've ever said

    Here is my terrible terrible analogy for flying vs no flying mounts in attempt to debunk the "if you like using ground mounts, no one is stopping you from using them" argument.

    Example: America, America has a lot of obese people who use cars. Cars are a convenient and quick way to travel. If these people could use other means of transportation such as biking or walking they might end up being healthier. But because cars exist and are generally the most convenient way to travel they will be used in most cases. Unfortunately even people of healthy weight have to use cars in order to stay competitive. No one is going to hire someone who can't get to work on time because of they refuse to use a car. In this way you can't say "you don't have to use a car because I use one" because frankly it isn't realistic in a world with an economy.
    I'm not healthier for not using a flying mount, in any sense of the analogy.
  1. Azerox's Avatar
    When will those keys come, dont see it yet :P
  1. dubbst's Avatar
    The keys are only sent for users who were in the CLOSED BETA with the battle-net app. Not if you downloaded while in open beta. Lots of folks are confusing this fact. The keys were already sent btw, so if you didn't get one it's because you weren't in the CLOSED BETA most likely.
  1. Praun's Avatar
    Looking forward to the new questing experience they are working towards. No flying in Draenor for the time being ? no problem. I can ride my noble griffon over the skies of Azeroth and fappp into the sunset to my hearts content when I so desire
  1. Lord Kristivas's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    Shit. What would I do without my Car.. you really opened my eyes.. All this time I left the second one alone in the garage..

    You, know .. get the difference between Real Life and WoW. 2 Months of not being able to drive your car IS a huge thing, I agree. But Two Months and more of not getting your Virtual Fly-Fly isn't a big deal. If it is, you should really be careful about your priorities.
    Two cars!? Golly gee willakers, Mister! You must be rich or somethin'! I can't believe you're so ballin' that you're bragging on a message board that you have cars just lying around!

    It's not the point. The point is, you took the time to get something, it should be yours. When someone takes it away for a ridiculous reason, shitty feelings abound.
  1. mmoc878ebd00c0's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanderz View Post
    People are acting like they really are taking it out of the game entirely. ITS DELAYED FOR ONE PATCH

    holy crap its not that big of a deal to wait. Most other expansions had you wait to use flying until max level anyway before you could fly. This just took it a bit further and said they will implement it next patch.
    No. You wont be able to fly at all, unless you want to hang out in outdated areas. Then you can fly.
    The new areas in the patches will be no flying until they are outdated again.
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    No. You wont be able to fly at all, unless you want to hang out in outdated areas. Then you can fly.
    The new areas in the patches will be no flying until they are outdated again.
    They're essentially phasing out flying, but without removing it entirely so you won't feel like the work you've put into is has gone down the drain.
  1. mmoc8499651efd's Avatar
    "blizzard pls bring back that vanilla feel"

    "there you go"
  1. ZeroWashu's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeShmo View Post
    World PvP died with Battlegrounds, in the same manner looking for groups in /1 died with LFD.
    World PvP was a non starter to begin with. As with every MMO the advantage lies with those who have more time to invest in the game. World PvP also suffers from unequal opponents because of level. Face it, far too many people who "love" the idea of World PvP are of the type who find it amusing to gank lowbies. Sorry, that is not PvP, that is sissy play. They don't certainly drop in amongst their own level if they can avoid it. Oh sure there are some who do, but they are a rarity.

    As for LFD clobbering groups, well I think the opposite. It opens up more content to more people because it takes away the arduous play of finding a group. NOTHING in LFD prevents players from forming their own groups and going on a run, nothing. I remember the days of having to hike to each instance, the debut of summoning stones and the crying about those, but again its all about enjoying the game and giving easier access to content is a win. What prevents those who cry about these items from ignoring their existence? Nothing.

    I am all for no flying in leveling zones of a current expansion. It adds to the adventure. Amazingly some of those who want flying will turn around and bemoan LFD and BGs.
  1. Role Unknown's Avatar
    Blizzard wants people to spend more time on their new expansion by slowing them down as much as possible, and as a result extending this expansion by keeping you subscribed longer. No more no less.

    I can also bet money that the "Mini legendary" quest(or whatever they mentioned) for getting flying when 6.1 comes out will be a long process too.
  1. KWC3587's Avatar
    Think of something like a mini Legendary cloak quest. It's such a enormous power to be able to fly we really want it to be more of a key moment when you unlock it, and something that feels like an accomplishment more than just shelling out some gold like we've had in the past.

    Two things, one, if your new beloved timeless isle form of questing is so fragile that an existing mechanic like flying can wreck it, then there's a major problem with it that needs to be addressed and that solution does not involve removing the existing mechanic. Two, I have now earned and paid for flying FOUR times now for every character. You are not going to be able to make it feel like a reward and instill a wonderful feeling in me by giving back what I already had until you took it away. It would be like you buying and paying for a car as an adult, coming out to find it gone one day, and then having your family give it to you as a present and sitting there befuddled as to why you aren't grateful. I mean they stole your belongings and gave it to you as a gift you ungrateful jerk.
  1. Paperfox's Avatar
    IMO flying is like hitting the content with a big nerf-bat. It enables you to miss all sorts of content and puts you on the easy road.

    Now it seems to me that there are a large number of folks who are against easier - look at all the hate to LFR. They should hate flying with an equal fervor.
  1. mmoc878ebd00c0's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Abstieg View Post
    They're essentially phasing out flying, but without removing it entirely so you won't feel like the work you've put into is has gone down the drain.
    next up in the Blizz store.

    BUY THE AMAZING FEY DRAKE FOR MAKE A WISH FOUNDATION.

    ONLY 25 DOLLARS FOR A MOUNT YOU CANNOT USE IN THE NEXT EXPANSION SUCH A BARGAIN.

    Its a good thing that this asinine idea will never make it live.
  1. deadman1's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    next up in the Blizz store.

    BUY THE AMAZING FEY DRAKE FOR MAKE A WISH FOUNDATION.

    ONLY 25 DOLLARS FOR A MOUNT YOU CANNOT USE IN THE NEXT EXPANSION SUCH A BARGAIN.
    Watch out some one is going to tell you that you can use it on the ground.
  1. hobbsey's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukai View Post
    All these no-flying people seam to be forgetting about the content where Mount flight is actually the requirement to complete without getting frustrated to the point of throwing your computer out of the window.

    Take both Pet Master battles and Archaeology for instance.

    There is generally one master per zone (7 zones in WoD, same as MoP) With a flying mount it takes me about 45 to 50 mins (depending on battle rng) to complete the 7 masters in Pandaria, roughly 5 mins per fight, so just 15 to 20 mins is spent flying. Tried this with a ground mount and flight points, and it became 1½ hours, again roughly 35 mins for the pet battles themselves, but travel time was extended to almost 1 hour, and that's not mentioning the 7 or 8 times I got dazed off of my mount and forced into combat. Which at the moment is trivial but at the start of the next expac you'll be in questing greens/dungeon blues. Possibly dieing as a result and getting large repair bills as well as forking out a small fortune on the flight points (as the cost of repairs/flight points goes up with every expac).

    Then there's Archaeology. That's spread out even further than the pet battles and taking 30+ mins to travel between 2 dig sites and the fact that on most dig site you have to clear them of mobs as you go along, and again, getting dazed off of your mount and forced into unnecessary mob fights on the way resulting in yet another small fortune being spent on repairs/flight paths.

    Expecting people to ENJOY this is just blatantly idiocy at it's finest o_O

    You really can't stress yourself out trying to compare current content with what they're going to put together in the future. Stuff now was designed with the knowledge that we would have flying mounts, so they intentionally spaced out pet masters to one per zone and put them on mountains and stuff. The designers are making the new content with the knowledge that we won't have flying mounts and we don't know how that's going to look yet. It's entirely possible that they'll address all of your issues (and you'll have the opprotunity to test and provide feedback on the PTR), and then add in some flying-friendly pet battles and archeology content when that patch is released.
  1. mmoc878ebd00c0's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    Watch out some one is going to tell you that you can use it on the ground.
    Yes, I will gladly spend real money on a flying mount, to use it on the ground.
    I also buy motorcycles just so i can use them to roll down hills.
  1. Radish Spirit's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by KWC3587 View Post
    I mean they stole your belongings and gave it to you as a gift you ungrateful jerk.
    This seems so obvious. Do they really believe they can make flying feel like a "reward" by taking it away from us and then making us work our asses off to get it back?

    Why don't they just man up and say "It's hard to design content around flying, so we don't want to do that" and own it. All this bullshit "we want it to feel epic again" mumbo-jumbo is just making it seem like they're afraid to admit what the real reasons are.

    Getting your first ground mount felt new and epic and awesome too, so why not take those away and make us re-earn them? Oh, right, because that would be ridiculous. It's NEVER going to feel "epic" to unlock flying ever again. The time has past. Now it just feels like "Oh, thank God I can fly AGAIN."

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