Dev Watercooler: Raiding Azeroth Part 2—From Cataclysm to Today
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Over the course of WoW’s nearly 10-year history, raiding has probably undergone more iteration and change than any other game system. To put the upcoming Warlords of Draenor raid changes into proper context, this three-part blog series will attempt to retrace the twists and turns of our raid design philosophy from Molten Core through Siege of Orgrimmar.

We continue the series by taking a look at raiding today, beginning with Cataclysm through Mists of Pandaria. If you missed Part 1, you can read it here.

Cataclysm (2010-2012)


After the rapid iteration on raid systems over the course of Wrath of the Lich King’s content updates, we approached Cataclysm aiming to wrap those designs into a more streamlined package. There were two major concerns that we wanted to address:

  • 10-player raiding had grown very popular due to its accessibility, but we were increasingly hearing from many of those raiders that they felt like they didn’t have the opportunity to prove themselves on the hardest content or earn the best gear in the game.
  • Players often felt obligated to run both 10-player and 25-player modes of the same content each week in order to optimize their character, which could accelerate burnout. (Best-in-slot trinkets and other items on the unique 10-player loot tables didn’t help here.)

Guided by these concerns, we decided to consolidate 10-player and 25-player modes into a single difficulty, single reward tier, and single raid lockout. So in Cataclysm, we allowed raiders to choose their preferred raid size and experience the content as they saw fit.

While we were motivated by good intentions, these changes had some unfortunate side effects. . . .

  • The need for equal difficulty between the two modes meant that when we encountered organic imbalances (e.g. spreading out requires more coordination with more players in the same space), no longer could we err on the side of just letting 10-player be easier. We had to try to adjust numbers or other mechanics to offset the disparity, and that was a challenging problem that we lacked prior experience in solving, especially when tuning cutting-edge Heroic content. As a result, there were many differences between the two modes, particularly early in the expansion.
  • Unifying the difficulty of the two modes mainly involved increasing the difficulty of 10-player mode. This left many players who had enjoyed success in 10-player Normal Icecrown Citadel feeling unable to get any sort of foothold in Cataclysm raiding.
  • While in theory players could now choose their preferred mode of raiding, in reality equalizing rewards encouraged a persistent downward pressure on raid size: Growing from 10 to 25 was nearly impossible logistically, whereas challenging bosses or attendance woes continually tempted 25-player raids to downsize and just keep going with their 10 “best” players. Previously these temptations were offset by the fact that switching to 10-player mode yielded weaker loot and different achievements, but the Cataclysm changes removed that countervailing motivation.


We got better at balancing the two modes over the course of the expansion, but the social consequences of the change continued to reverberate. In particular, raiding had become inaccessible to players who previously had enjoyed playing with their friends or pickup groups, and that was a problem.

Patch 4.3: Raid Finder

Just as Dungeon Finder opened dungeons up to a far wider audience by removing the logistical barriers to finding groups for them, our new Raid Finder held the same promise for raiding. Whereas finding a pickup group even on an active realm required a large contiguous block of time and a fair bit of patience, Raid Finder allowed players to jump right in and experience raid content on their own time and according to their own schedules. The feature was tremendously popular, and it allowed more players than ever before to experience the conclusion of an expansion’s major story arc, as millions of players defeated Deathwing, compared to the thousands that had defeated Kel’thuzad back in 2006.

We learned a lot from Dragon Soul about how to design content for Raid Finder. We endeavored to preserve encounter mechanics where possible, but had to significantly adjust unforgiving abilities—especially those that allowed a single player’s mistake to result in the entire group’s failure. In traditional organized raiding, a group of players generally learns from mistakes and masters content together, and they bring that collective knowledge with them in subsequent weeks. In Raid Finder, which put players in random groups each week, there was a clean slate with regard to mastery of the encounters. Having to essentially redo progression each week is few players’ idea of fun, so we had to significantly accelerate the Raid Finder learning curve.

Mists of Pandaria (2012-2014)


Going into Mists of Pandaria (Mists), we made fewer changes to our raid structure than in any prior expansion. Other than some improved handling of loot for Raid Finder (replacing traditional Need/Greed with personal loot), Mists raiding at launch followed the exact same structure as raiding in Patch 4.3: Dragon Soul. In retrospect, the lack of change actually reflects another miscalculation on our part.

We knew that the Cataclysm changes had effectively removed a difficulty level from our game by raising the challenge of 10-player Normal to match 25-player, and that this change had left a group of players without suitable raid content. By adding Raid Finder, we had returned to three effective difficulties, and given the popularity of the feature, we assumed that this largely solved the problem. We were mistaken.

Raid Difficulty and Raid Groups—An Aside

In broad strokes, there are three distinct types of groups that participate in organized raiding:

  • Friends and Family groups: These are social groups that exist for reasons besides raiding, but whose players would like to venture into raid content together. This type of group is inherently inclusive, and will not organize its roster according to specific class needs, nor is the group likely to criticize or remove players based on performance. Members of this type of group prioritize playing together.
  • Raiding guilds: These are groups that have formed for the purpose of raiding. These are the majority of guilds that you’ll see recruiting in Trade chat or on realm forums. These groups will generally look for specific classes based on roster needs, and will expect a certain level of attendance or performance. Members of this type of group prioritize experiencing and learning the content.
  • Hardcore raiding guilds: An extreme subset of the previous category, these are the guilds of players whose ethos drives them to be the best at games they play, and who are willing to dedicate time and energy to maximize their results. Guilds of this type will recruit and maintain a roster based primarily on performance, and will expect raiders to optimize their characters. Members of this type of group prioritize competition and success.


At the start of Mists, Normal modes appealed solidly to raiding guilds, and Heroic difficulty provided a worthy challenge to the hardcore guilds. However, friends-and-family groups—which had once thrived in Karazhan and in 10-player Normal raiding in Wrath—were left without much satisfying content. They made some headway in the new raids, but often got stuck at Elegon (Mogu’shan Vaults) or Garalon (Heart of Fear) without any clear way forward. Running Raid Finder could have helped them get better gear to overcome these challenges, but that often simply wasn’t enjoyable. For the player who just wants to play with his or her friends in a tight-knit environment, solo-queuing was not a satisfying experience; even queuing for Raid Finder as a group wasn’t much better, since the presence of a dozen or more strangers transformed the nature of the activity. Besides, Raid Finder was tuned for randomly matched groups and generally lacked sufficient challenge for even the most casual of organized raid groups.

We realized that we were doing a poor job of serving this important segment of our player community. Raid Finder, it turned out, was great for players who had no interest or ability to participate in organized raiding at scheduled times, but for friends-and-family groups, it was not an adequate substitute for the old 10-player Normal difficulty that went away in Cataclysm.

Patch 5.4: Flexible Raiding


For the Siege of Orgrimmar, we introduced a new raiding mode that was designed primarily to solve this problem: Flexible Raid mode was tuned to be roughly 20% to 25% easier (numerically speaking) than Normal mode, while preserving all of the fight mechanics, but more importantly, it also made use of a new scaling system to allow the content to adapt to any raid size between 10 and 25 players. For players whose priority is just being able to raid with their friends, why force someone to have exactly 9 or 24 friends? Why limit which friends they can play with to those on the same realm? We made Flexible Raids have their own lockout, and we allowed players to kill the same boss multiple times per week—but only loot it once. In general, our aim was to remove as many obstacles as possible that might get in the way of friends who just want to be able to raid together in WoW. (And for those who are wondering, “Then why not allow cross-faction raiding? Why not let me raid with my Alliance friends even if I play Undead?” Fundamentally, Alliance vs. Horde, Orcs vs. Humans, is the heart and soul of the Warcraft universe—we have to draw the line somewhere, and we draw it there.)

We’re tremendously happy with how players have received the new Flexible Raid mode, and we wish we’d implemented something like this sooner. We’re now back to three tiers of difficulty that cover all of the different kinds of organized raiders, while preserving Raid Finder for those who just want to experience the content on their own schedule.

In Part 3, we’ll take a look at the future of raiding in Warlords of Draenor.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler: Raiding Azeroth Part 2—From Cataclysm to Today started by chaud View original post
Comments 83 Comments
  1. Mellrod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Arvandor View Post
    what a waste of time.. start the beta or bring real news!
    Why is this a waste of time or insignificant information? They made two articles on the raids and dungeons on the past, but this time providing insight on their train of thought, reasoning, and ideas behind making said instances. it's pretty eye-opening and a nice walk down memory lane. It shows us what blizzard has/hasn't learned from the past as well and hints at what the dungeons and raids of the future may look like for us.

    Beta news will come when it's ready, i dont see why people think there's a way to advance something that takes time first and foremost.
  1. mtr's Avatar
    "We were tremendously happy with how players have received a new pvp season with the same armor models as the previous one."
  1. mmoc3930bb48c6's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    PuG raiding. LFR as is involves a lot more time than it had back in DS. If one has time to do one wing of LFR then they have time to do a PuG. If one needs to constantly bail mid LFR run then they wouldnt have gotten far anyways. The very time commitment that players complained about in Cata for five mans being non-casual friendly is being seen in LFR in MoP.
    Honestly, half-way through my post I realized that PuG raiding might actually see a rebirth in WoD. With WoD downplaying the gear-wise importance of LFR, I believe that it's possible that the "non-schedulers" who earlier would only do LFR, might now under these new circumstances feel compelled to make PuG groups in order to acquire better gear. After all, PuGing doesn't really require you to schedule your playtime.

    At the same time I believe that PuGing might serve as a gateway drug, giving those people who used to be LFR "non-schedulers" a compulsion to actually start seeking to enter the traditional scheduled raid scene. (Here I'm not talking about those people who are "non-schedulers" due to work and etc., but rather those who are a able to do so, but for whatever reason feel uncomfortable scheduling their playtime.)
  1. leetswily's Avatar
    On average I raid on and off with two max level characters (when I play the game anyway.) At the current state of things It's like I'm killing the same sh*t over and over again. I feel like a dangerous thing these dungeon difficulty modes ignore (at least in MoP) is the fact that you're progressing for weeks/months on end just so you can go back and do the same exact thing except harder. It's great that it makes content more available for casuals; but I think it's also one of the roots of why people get really bored with the game. Now whenever I get loot in raids, odds are it's going to be the same exact piece of gear with slightly better stats. When content was exclusively "difficult" (level 60 naxx/aq40/whatever) it kind of gave people more of a concrete goal to progress towards (cooler loot, cooler content.) I'm not saying they need to go back to their style of level 60 raids; I just hope not to be farming the same bosses for 8 months in WoD.

    tl;dr
    The current system of raiding has a very weak incentive for progression (in my opinion.)
  1. mmoc903ad35b4b's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    The big point he is going to make in the next blog is about burnout and hardcore raiders feeling the need to run LFR for tier pieces and trinkets.
    I am sure he will. As he is a hardcore gamer himself. Devs like him will never create a good game for the majority of players, but focus on his own cultural background.

    We know where you come from, watcher.
  1. Kaq's Avatar
    Love these blogs
  1. hawtlol's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by leetswily View Post
    On average I raid on and off with two max level characters (when I play the game anyway.) At the current state of things It's like I'm killing the same sh*t over and over again. I feel like a dangerous thing these dungeon difficulty modes ignore (at least in MoP) is the fact that you're progressing for weeks/months on end just so you can go back and do the same exact thing except harder. It's great that it makes content more available for casuals; but I think it's also one of the roots of why people get really bored with the game. Now whenever I get loot in raids, odds are it's going to be the same exact piece of gear with slightly better stats. When content was exclusively "difficult" (level 60 naxx/aq40/whatever) it kind of gave people more of a concrete goal to progress towards (cooler loot, cooler content.) I'm not saying they need to go back to their style of level 60 raids; I just hope not to be farming the same bosses for 8 months in WoD.

    tl;dr
    The current system of raiding has a very weak incentive for progression (in my opinion.)
    And it's a very good one and it was a major reason for people to keep coming back to the raids. Another big thing is the introduction of LFR, PvP server transfers, and faction changes, and name changes changed the community sense the game brought. Remember what would happen if you ninja'd something or kept purposely wiping a raid? Majority of the server would know your name and would get blacklisted. Just like in real life you had to make a name for yourself and actually have some mannerisms. Now you are anonymous and can be a dick all you want and it won't effect the progression of your character(s).
  1. mmocac96309fe0's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    So we've gone from Wrath where 3-4 lockouts accelerated burnout to Cata where 1 lockout and equal difficulties kept lesser skilled players from wanting to get better back to 4 difficulties? It sounds like we're back where we started and the end result isn't good. Four raid lockouts that are separate is the problem we had in ToC only worse because there will be more bosses and trash on top of it.
    I think problems with raid structure were when blizzard viewed them as such. In the end what we learned from all this is that limiting what people can do in the game is a bad idea, even if some part of the community felt "preasured".
  1. mmoc3930bb48c6's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by leetswily View Post
    On average I raid on and off with two max level characters (when I play the game anyway.) At the current state of things It's like I'm killing the same sh*t over and over again. I feel like a dangerous thing these dungeon difficulty modes ignore (at least in MoP) is the fact that you're progressing for weeks/months on end just so you can go back and do the same exact thing except harder. It's great that it makes content more available for casuals; but I think it's also one of the roots of why people get really bored with the game. Now whenever I get loot in raids, odds are it's going to be the same exact piece of gear with slightly better stats. When content was exclusively "difficult" (level 60 naxx/aq40/whatever) it kind of gave people more of a concrete goal to progress towards (cooler loot, cooler content.) I'm not saying they need to go back to their style of level 60 raids; I just hope not to be farming the same bosses for 8 months in WoD.

    tl;dr
    The current system of raiding has a very weak incentive for progression (in my opinion.)
    On a personal level (as in what would I enjoy the most) I agree with you on this statement. The problem though, is that with the current demographic that plays wow, such a change would simply result in too much lost revenue. Lost revenue simply due to how ghostcrawler said their data suggesten that most players won't step up to the challenge, but instead quit (which I honestly find saddening, but such is simply the reality)

    As such what would improve the quality of the game for me, would hurt Blizzard's revenue, and therefor won't ever be done.

    However there is one very ambitous way where it could perhaps be done, without hurting, and perhaps even increasing revenue. If we as a starting point go with the assumption that:

    a) What most people enjoy to do in the game is to progress, either through gear acquisition, boss kill or other ways etc.

    and that

    b) The demographic of the PvE playerbaser is split into (at least) 4 groups

    - The "non-schedulers" group: People who either can't or won't play at scheduled times
    - The "friends and family" group: People who care more about playing together, than playing in order to overcome more hardcore-ish challenges
    - The "serious raider" group: People who enjoy playing in order to overcome the hard challenges that raiding provides
    - The "hardcore (super serious) raider" group: People who play to raid; to be the best

    The trick then, which of course would be a very ambitious one to pursue, would be to create different types of content for each of these groups, in the same game of WoW.

    The current way that Blizzard has tried catering to all of these demographic groups, has been to add the same single type of content, namely raiding, and then slicing it into different difficulties, catering to the different skill levels of these groups.

    Now, how to create different type of content for each group? Well I don't know I guess it's pretty much the holy grail of MMOs - But I really hope that once they release WoW2/Titan, if they're still working on it, that they will try to use a new formula to deal with the different demographic groups in an MMO.
  1. Zyranthian's Avatar
    I'm really enjoying reading this, I mean I was there and played through these raids but its always interesting to hear the thought processes and the development processes behind it all. Looking forward to part 3!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    I am sure he will. As he is a hardcore gamer himself. Devs like him will never create a good game for the majority of players, but focus on his own cultural background.

    We know where you come from, watcher.
    I know right! Blizzard do nothing but cater to the hardcore people. You know what'd be good, was if they introduced a difficulty level that was a bit easier than normal, so that more casual groups of friends or PUGs could get together and do some organised raiding. It'd be really handy if there was no set size for the group either, maybe it could be a bit more of a flexible alternative.

    Its a pipe dream though I know, they're not interested in creating a good game for the majority of players, just the hardcore.
  1. buddah13's Avatar
    I wana see them take this a step further and do a LFR for every raid in the game, or at this point its a waste, no one does the old raids except for xmog gear and for nostalgia , it needs to happen soon too
  1. Xjev's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by buddah13 View Post
    I wana see them take this a step further and do a LFR for every raid in the game, or at this point its a waste, no one does the old raids except for xmog gear and for nostalgia , it needs to happen soon too
    you can solo most of them, you dont need a team for old raids
  1. reagal's Avatar
    lfr has become my end game flex is a nightmare you must have warforged raid gear level and full heroic achievements to get into a pug. group and there idea of friends and family well that does not apply to me as i solo play this game. it appears from the above that this game is no longer aimed at players like me. i will not accept lfr being reduced further now we don't even get tier gear class act blizzard.

    when this flex catastrophe does not bring in the subs like you think it will, repair lfr and like in cataclysm i will come back. Warcraft despite your hatred for players like me is still one of my favorite games.
  1. zura's Avatar
    thanks for bringing back good memories blizz, now what's next? when will we play wod?
  1. cptaylor38's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by reagal View Post
    lfr has become my end game flex is a nightmare you must have warforged raid gear level and full heroic achievements to get into a pug. group and there idea of friends and family well that does not apply to me as i solo play this game. it appears from the above that this game is no longer aimed at players like me. i will not accept lfr being reduced further now we don't even get tier gear class act blizzard.

    when this flex catastrophe does not bring in the subs like you think it will, repair lfr and like in cataclysm i will come back. Warcraft despite your hatred for players like me is still one of my favorite games.

    Nobody cares about that minor detail for finding a raiding group. They'll just say that is an excuse or that it's completely false. Everything is false, false, false. Show me proof. Source?

    It is the truth though. Nobody wants you in their group unless you have an ilvl high enough guaranteed to be able to carry them. Everyone has to have 10 ilvls higher than necessary or more or you won't even get a response. You can search for hours on OQueue and find group after group that MAY invite you, but then the group will fall apart waiting for a tank or a healer.

    Raid finder is a guaranteed way to get a group, even if you have to wait. And you will be guaranteed to get replacements for that group. You can do it on your own time and it allows people a chance to complete their group without having to portal or hearth out and spam in trade chat or ask somebody in their guild and get no response.

    The social aspect of this game is dead, and they're not going to bring it back by forcing all of us subhuman casuals to push ourselves into getting into higher "difficulty" content.

    And yet again, from Blizzard's perspective this isn't even about a hardcore being a hardcore player or not. It's not about rewarding hardcore players.

    It will take more time from the casual players that don't have guilds to be able to get the tier gear that won't drop from looking for raid, so they can milk out those subscriptions. The ones that do raid higher difficulty and have guilds are already invested anyway so they won't run looking for raid a few times to get their tier and then unsub.

    It's just ironic that all of these "hardcore" players think that Blizzard is catering to them, when in reality they are only catering to themselves. When they start to see all of these changes have yet another negative impact and decide to do a full 180 YET AGAIN for the next expansion to cater to the "casuals" again.. it will be nice to see you on the other side of fence.
  1. Nami's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Zookz25 View Post
    Currently, I can't see myself coming back to WoW without something being done about LFR. Before I left, LFR started to really drain my motivation to actual want to progress. I was in the friends and family style guild, and it wasn't the difficulty that pushed us away, but the fact that we saw everything in LFR. We've raised up to the challenge in the past (even doing heroics in some cases, if we really liked the raid), but that striving was pushed by actually wanting to see what the content had to offer.

    I understand it should be the adversity and challenge that brings us to play, but damn, the payoff just wasn't there. It brought myself and said friends and family to wonder why we should bother putting in all the effort since we were seeing the last boss of the game before we even tackled the first boss on normal. The whole fun part and finally reaching the end to fight with the big bad is kind of lost when you kicked his ass a long time ago.
    I know what you mean. After clearing Dragon Soul a bunch of times in LFR, getting further on normal didn't feel the same as it did back in ICC. Defeating the Lich King was a lot more satisfying than defeating Deathwing, and I'm convinced it had to do with the fact that I killed him in LFR first.

    But you know what the solution is? Don't do LFR. It was more difficult back in DS because we needed gear, but now that we have Flex, I haven't done LFR at all to gear myself for normal, and I only did the first few bosses on Flex and still managed to clear all of SoO on normal. You might say it's the same problem with Flex, because you get to see the content on easy mode before attempting it on normal, but my solution to this, as dumb as it sounds, is to not watch the cutscenes until you've cleared the bosses on normal. I actually did the same thing in Dragon Soul - I skipped the ending cutscene every time I finished LFR and only watched it when I finally downed Deathwing on normal with my guild. Of course, the kill wasn't as satisfying as it would have been if I hadn't previously defeated him in LFR, but at least it gave me something to look forward to.

    In short, if seeing the content on lower difficulties is making you not want to raid, then avoid doing LFR/Flex if you can (like I did for Garrosh), but if you don't have a choice because you really need the gear, then skip the cutscenes so you don't feel like you've already seen everything when you get to normal.
  1. mmoc06f546cfaf's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Nobody cares about that minor detail for finding a raiding group. They'll just say that is an excuse or that it's completely false. Everything is false, false, false. Show me proof. Source?

    It is the truth though. Nobody wants you in their group unless you have an ilvl high enough guaranteed to be able to carry them. Everyone has to have 10 ilvls higher than necessary or more or you won't even get a response. You can search for hours on OQueue and find group after group that MAY invite you, but then the group will fall apart waiting for a tank or a healer.

    Raid finder is a guaranteed way to get a group, even if you have to wait. And you will be guaranteed to get replacements for that group. You can do it on your own time and it allows people a chance to complete their group without having to portal or hearth out and spam in trade chat or ask somebody in their guild and get no response.

    The social aspect of this game is dead, and they're not going to bring it back by forcing all of us subhuman casuals to push ourselves into getting into higher "difficulty" content.

    And yet again, from Blizzard's perspective this isn't even about a hardcore being a hardcore player or not. It's not about rewarding hardcore players.

    It will take more time from the casual players that don't have guilds to be able to get the tier gear that won't drop from looking for raid, so they can milk out those subscriptions. The ones that do raid higher difficulty and have guilds are already invested anyway so they won't run looking for raid a few times to get their tier and then unsub.

    It's just ironic that all of these "hardcore" players think that Blizzard is catering to them, when in reality they are only catering to themselves. When they start to see all of these changes have yet another negative impact and decide to do a full 180 YET AGAIN for the next expansion to cater to the "casuals" again.. it will be nice to see you on the other side of fence.
    About Flex vs LFR.


    1) You can create your own group, it works. Tested and approved.

    2) People search for absurd ilvl because SOO is more than 8 months old now and people actually want to RUSH those bosses and be done with it quickly. That was not the case at the beginning of 5.4.

    3) It's not a solo game. Massively Multiplayer Online !

    LFR is toxic and has bad influence on the players base. Flex is the near-perfect solution, please just try harder and give it more thoughts.
  1. Paradyne's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahkah View Post
    About Flex vs LFR.


    1) You can create your own group, it works. Tested and approved.

    2) People search for absurd ilvl because SOO is more than 8 months old now and people actually want to RUSH those bosses and be done with it quickly. That was not the case at the beginning of 5.4.

    3) It's not a solo game. Massively Multiplayer Online !

    LFR is toxic and has bad influence on the players base. Flex is the near-perfect solution, please just try harder and give it more thoughts.
    As long as Flex has the ability for players to determine what criteria they want for the formation of a group & how they will distribute loot then it will never be a replacement for LFR. If you are familiar with the history of PUG formation in WoW you'll know that players have always attempted to gate content behind their own perceptions of what they want for a PUG, whether that be unrealistic gear score, unrealistic iLVL, proof of achievements etc.

    In WOD we will get yet another form of gating, I will promise you now that here is how entry to Flex (normal in WOD) will work for the majority of PUGs.
    If you have LFR gear you are not welcome, go back & get heroic dungeon gear or clearly you are a scrub....anyone who is wearing LFR gear will bear the same stigma that PUGs used to apply to having pieces of PVP gear back in the day.

    By removing LFR from the progression path to get into higher difficulties they will essentially create an easily identifiable group who are considered second class citizens as far as the raiding world is concerned.

    Cynical perhaps but also based on 8 years in Wow & seeing the behavior of the community.
  1. LeoXearo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Nobody cares about that minor detail for finding a raiding group. They'll just say that is an excuse or that it's completely false. Everything is false, false, false. Show me proof. Source?

    It is the truth though. Nobody wants you in their group unless you have an ilvl high enough guaranteed to be able to carry them. Everyone has to have 10 ilvls higher than necessary or more or you won't even get a response. You can search for hours on OQueue and find group after group that MAY invite you, but then the group will fall apart waiting for a tank or a healer.

    Raid finder is a guaranteed way to get a group, even if you have to wait. And you will be guaranteed to get replacements for that group. You can do it on your own time and it allows people a chance to complete their group without having to portal or hearth out and spam in trade chat or ask somebody in their guild and get no response.

    The social aspect of this game is dead, and they're not going to bring it back by forcing all of us subhuman casuals to push ourselves into getting into higher "difficulty" content.

    And yet again, from Blizzard's perspective this isn't even about a hardcore being a hardcore player or not. It's not about rewarding hardcore players.

    It will take more time from the casual players that don't have guilds to be able to get the tier gear that won't drop from looking for raid, so they can milk out those subscriptions. The ones that do raid higher difficulty and have guilds are already invested anyway so they won't run looking for raid a few times to get their tier and then unsub.

    It's just ironic that all of these "hardcore" players think that Blizzard is catering to them, when in reality they are only catering to themselves. When they start to see all of these changes have yet another negative impact and decide to do a full 180 YET AGAIN for the next expansion to cater to the "casuals" again.. it will be nice to see you on the other side of fence.
    That's one of things I like about LFR, it doesn't matter how many times my group wipes on a boss, I know that eventually I'm going to down him. Anywhere else but in LFR and a single wipe could cause the raid to disband and result in a huge waste of my time.

    I don't get why they had to go messing with LFR, I think it is great the way it currently is, you do a toned down raid and get a toned down tier set.
  1. innersilence's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Alextana View Post
    On a personal level (as in what would I enjoy the most) I agree with you on this statement. The problem though, is that with the current demographic that plays wow, such a change would simply result in too much lost revenue. Lost revenue simply due to how ghostcrawler said their data suggesten that most players won't step up to the challenge, but instead quit (which I honestly find saddening, but such is simply the reality)

    As such what would improve the quality of the game for me, would hurt Blizzard's revenue, and therefor won't ever be done.

    However there is one very ambitous way where it could perhaps be done, without hurting, and perhaps even increasing revenue. If we as a starting point go with the assumption that:

    a) What most people enjoy to do in the game is to progress, either through gear acquisition, boss kill or other ways etc.


    The trick then, which of course would be a very ambitious one to pursue, would be to create different types of content for each of these groups, in the same game of WoW.

    The current way that Blizzard has tried catering to all of these demographic groups, has been to add the same single type of content, namely raiding, and then slicing it into different difficulties, catering to the different skill levels of these groups.
    True, specially the part that says different content for different groups. In my opinion, majority always tend to follow the minority and this is what blizzard fails to understand. What I mean is that there are always minority of good players with those shiny achievements and gear and they spent a lot of time in the game for that purpose, while, others are happy, following them. There is no way, in any game, to make everyone happy with the same content.

    let me give an example about myself. back in TBC I used to play with my friends and did some PvP and not hardcore raiding. While we did Karazhan now and then for fun we , also, had some progress in the higher tiers and it was a sheer amount of joy and excitement when we could kill a new boss for the first time and see the following content. Well, back then we had not much chance to try BT but at least we always hoped we could do it one day and when we saw others for example with Illidan sword and it motivated us a lot to do so. Also, there was always other things that we could do, i.e. some challenging heroic dungeons and even solo content and etc. Actually we finally could try the BT after they introduced the badge system and removed attunements. But it also destroyed all the motivation to do the yet unfinished previous contents.

    Then it came all the new raiding system which in my opinion brought nothing good in the long term for the raiders. i.e. when me and my friends could clear Cata raids in the normal difficulty we already felt that we finished all the content up to that tier and after that it was only repetition of the same thing again and again. Also, not all players are motivated enough or have the time to do the heroic modes. So, what happened was that every week we tried few times in heroic mode and some players got disappointed very soon and decided to do the rest of it in normal mode for the favor of the getting some loots and it continued till the next tier came. And later LFR came which was a final bullet to this drama.

    For conclusion, as a player who always liked PvE I did not try a single raid in the MoP not even a LFR simply because I think it is only a museum that players can join to watch the content and eventually I stopped playing wow like many others. Of course, playing a game for a long time could be the reason but after reading other players comments, I can say it was not the only reason for us to not enjoy this game as much as we used to do.

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