Season 8 Ends Dec 30th, S9 Starts Jan 6th

How Good Is Kabal Chemist?

Addon - Better Icon Select
BetterIconSelect allows you to search for icons by their filename and increase the size of the icon selection window.



World Boss - Calamir
Calamir is up this week, rewarding players with Artifact Power and a chance at item level 860 loot.



Weekly Bonus Event - Pet Battles
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
An extra weekly quest and rewards are here— the Pet Battles bonus event is underway!

This Week
All week, get out there and fight with your mighty minions. When the time comes to take on other players, open your Pet Journal and hit the “Find Battle” button to be matched up with an opponent whose team is competitive with yours.

Look for the following all week long:


Ghostcrawler Tweets
Ghostcrawler still occasionally talks about WoW. Remember that he no longer works for or speaks for Blizzard.
Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
Celestalon usually looks down on people who whine about clunky or broken when people talk game mechanics, what do you think when someone approaches you that way
“Clunky” is one of those words that has just lost a lot of meaning over time. I feel like we all used to use “clunky” to mean a lack of elegance, as if little thought or polish was given to the design. Rather than painstakingly crafting a gourmet meal, the designer just threw a bunch of stuff in the stew pot and didn’t give it much additional thought. Or to switch metaphors, I always imagine a car trying to roll on square wheels. It will get you where you’re going, but inefficiently and with a lot of discomfort, and the alternatives is both obvious and a massive improvement.

To me the things that are most clunky are a general lack of responsiveness (you click, but nothing happens for a bit), or a UI that requires excessive clicking (especially targeting), or bad timing to the flow of something, such as cooldowns all coming up at once, or alternatively long breaks in the cooldown.

The problem with “clunky” and “broken” is that over time they have lost enough meaning that a lot of players just use them now as a generic “I don’t like this.” Low power or dps can be described as clunky, which is pretty different from the original intent (unless it’s something like the rotation requires a lot of weird hoops to jump through to be competitive, in which case the clunkiness and effectiveness may truly be linked).

From a developer perspective, we don’t get much specific, actionable feedback when something is described just as clunky or broken. We don’t know what the specific concerns or complaints are, so we feel like we’re just guessing about how to potentially fix it.

Stepping back a bit, yes, developers should have good intuition about these things and be able to detect problems before they even ship. I also realize that it can be frustrating when you know you don’t like something but can’t quite articulate in game terms what it is. Writing can be hard. Just be patient with us when we can’t read your mind in these situations.

Yes, given enough time and back-and-forth, I can often tease out more useful feedback. I can ask “What do you mean by the term clunky?” I can offer some kind of multiple choice to help the player really zero in on what their feedback really is. But that kind of conversation takes a ton of bandwidth, and when the situation is typically one of us having a conversation with forty, or a hundred, or a thousand of you at once, it’s sort of hard to justify.

I think “look down on” is overly harsh. I’d describe it more as mild frustration ranging to disappointment on our end, especially if the player is also angry and impatient in the same breath in which they are being really vague.

My advice is if you want to be as helpful as possible with your feedback, avoid generic adjectives and intensifiers. Explain as plainly and succinctly as you can what the problem is. Avoid ascribing intention to the developers. Avoid how the change makes you feel, unless emotional resonance is really the issue in question (such as in a story). Don’t make us sift through a haystack of words to find the needle of insight. (Source)
This article was originally published in forum thread: Better Icon Select Addon, World Boss - Calamir, Pet Battles Bonus Event, Tweets started by chaud View original post
Comments 33 Comments
  1. Aucald's Avatar
    That's a handy add-on.
  1. Parhelion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Ghostcrawler has never understood what clunky means when it comes to feedback apparently. It means the design of the interaction isn't intuitive in nature. It takes more thought to achieve a goal than it should.
    Your definition is so vague that you just proved GC's point.

    If a fireball would have a 1 sec. cast, and you had to weave in Fire Blast mid-cast... that would be clunky. Needing to manually dismount before picking a herb, that would be clunky. Be specific.
  1. mmoc8823406b83's Avatar
    Dat addon. Elune bless you for your work. I've been searching for something like a bigger icon frame for a long time. Even wrote to Blizzard about possible update for it, but nothing...
  1. Parhelion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yes, and much of it is very clunky in design. That's why people use so many addons and whatnot. They help fix the problems.
    Addons might alleviate some of the clunkiness, but add even more at the same time (to someone not skilled in handling computers).
  1. Will's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixos View Post
    Does Ghostcrawler have multiple personality disorder or what?!

    Few days ago he said player should avoid explaining devs in details what's wrong with a class design because developers don't have time to read all that. Now, he is saying "we don’t get much specific, actionable feedback". Like what the actual f***?!

    Should players draw info-graphics or make 1 minute long animated videos for devs? Is that the only way for them to understand what the problem is while not taking too much of their precious time they use to decide what to nerf next?
    No, I don't see what you're trying to say. So a few days ago GC said developers don't have time to read verbose feedback, fair enough. Then today he said developers don't get much concise feedback; feedback they get tends to be too verbose. In other words he's reinforcing what he said a few days ago: Feedback tends to be too wordy, and developers don't get enough concise feedback.

    Feedback doesn't have to be verbose to be useful. It just has to be to the point; no BS. The part where GC said 'actionable' feedback basically means feedback that isn't simply "I don't like this, fix it" without any justification as to why it needs fixing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yes, and much of it is very clunky in design. That's why people use so many addons and whatnot. They help fix the problems.
    People are confusing minimalism with clunkiness. The stock UI is minimalist. Do not confuse lack of data and visual information (no boss mods etc) with clunky; they're not the same thing. Yeah don't get me wrong, the health bars and stuff, all the info, is in a bad location. This isn't clunky, it's just inefficient. Different things entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Ghostcrawler has never understood what clunky means when it comes to feedback apparently. It means the design of the interaction isn't intuitive in nature. It takes more thought to achieve a goal than it should.
    We have a word to describe that. It's called 'unintuitive'. GC's point is proven; people use the word 'clunky' to suit their own needs these days. You just used it to describe a roundabout process to achieve a goal. Since the official definition of 'clunky' has nothing to do with the context gamers seem to love using it in, let's just say it's a loose term with a ton of different interpretations. If it takes me 3 clicks to do what could be done in 1, I don't call that clunky. Unnecessarily complicated or convoluted, perhaps, but clunky? No. Clunky, to my mind, would be if half the clicks didn't even register for some reason. But as I already said it's a word with a ton of interpretations, any hundred people could quote this very post and say 'no, that's NOT what clunky means'. Everyone's gonna have to agree to disagree. But if you want to be pedantic about it, go look it up in the dictionary. It refers to something that can be physically clumpy, old fashioned or describe a clunking sound. Gamers practically took the word and coined their own adaptable definition from it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Parhelion View Post
    If a fireball would have a 1 sec. cast, and you had to weave in Fire Blast mid-cast... that would be clunky. Needing to manually dismount before picking a herb, that would be clunky. Be specific.
    What are you even talking about? If you have to weave a fire blast mid cast, that's not clunky. It's rotation. YOU proved GC's point; you personally find the idea of weaving Fire Blasts mid cast to be unappealing, so you personally define it as being 'clunky'. I personally think it's a non-issue and would make the rotation more enjoyable and (re)active. You can't just redefine words to suit your argument and then claim others don't understand what the word means. If the time you have to weave in said FB is quite short, it would make it difficult. Difficulty =/= clunky

    Manually needing to dismount to pick up a herb would be inconvenient, but when you think about it whenever people lose conveniences they've known for years, they call it clunky. Play WoW for years without auto-dismount and you don't complain at all. Enjoy auto dismount for a week or two. If the feature gets taken away again, people would start screaming about it being clunky, despite the fact they had it that way for years without complaint.

    Example: Nobody calls it clunky that you have to re-mount AFTER picking a herb or mining an ore node, but I guarantee if they made it so interacting with herbs or ores didn't dismount you in the first place, then took that feature away again, people would bitch en-masse on the forums about how you have to 'mount after picking a herb' and how it's 'clunky and badly designed gameplay'

    How about next time I play an adventure game I complain about the game being clunky because I have to press B to grab an object when it should just pick up automatically! or call it clunky because the character controls in a very slippery or perhaps sluggish manner? I can't just use the word to suit my own needs and expect it to be an accurate definition!

    I can say for certain almost nobody I know is onto this craze of over-using the word clunky, but whenever I browse gaming sites or forums the term is totally overused like crazy. I assume it must be an American thing or something.
  1. mmoc024535e5c7's Avatar
    This is an addon i always wanted but never said it loud. BRAVO!!!!!
  1. ImpTaimer's Avatar
    Ghostcrawler has no idea what "clunky" means as evidence from all the "clunky" garbage added in Cata and onwards during his career at Blizzard.

    "Clunky" is/was a well-established term that was easily identifiable in games. But somehow, because he's out of touch when it comes to game "clunk" he should dismiss it. The man worked on a top-down strategy game so he doesn't understand how much "clunk" ruins actual 3D games, especially ones with action and platforming mechanics.

    I'm completely flabergasting how someone like Greg Street, who used his time on Ages of Empire as an "educational learning experience" and then come to a "real game" like WoW and suddenly manage a major portion of the game's mechanics--class play.

    He's defaulting to mental gymnastics as usual.

    And just to provide an example of what constitutes as not only clunky, but fundamentally broken -- Rampage.

    Also smart-cast was finally added to alleviate the clunkiness of manually casting target circles.
  1. Lizardo221's Avatar
    Clunky: awkwardly solid, heavy, and outdated as google defines the word. This bastardization of the term needs to stop! It is not meant for when something is broken, unintuitive, or flawed. It is a word to be used specifically in gaming when you get something that is functional yet lacks the polish and details that we would expect in a modern choice of design. The addon in the post above is a perfect example of fighting "clunky". The default Icon picker opens a small, insanely long window for us to comb through carefully. When it was created many years ago, it was an innovative design with a much smaller amount of icons to pick from, so it was perfectly acceptable. However, times change, and the amount of icons has grown a lot. The function has become "clunkly" in nature - we can use it as its intended (find an icon), but we all know its a dated design. BetterIconSelect is everything it needs to not be clunky, and frankly, the developers should strongly consider implementing this kind of addon as a default in the future.
  1. Parhelion's Avatar
    What are you even talking about? If you have to weave a fire blast mid cast, that's not clunky. It's rotation. YOU proved GC's point; you personally find the idea of weaving Fire Blasts mid cast to be unappealing, so you personally define it as being 'clunky'. I personally think it's a non-issue and would make the rotation more enjoyable and (re)active. You can't just redefine words to suit your argument and then claim others don't understand what the word means. If the time you have to weave in said FB is quite short, it would make it difficult. Difficulty =/= clunky
    No, I gave a good example.
    A 1-second Fireball with Fire Blast weaving would be unnecessarily clunky.
    The current (base) 2.25-second-cast fireball w/ Fire Blast weaving is not clunky at all.
    There are obvious reasons for this, apart from "personal definitions of clunkiness", for example latency issues, to name one, as WoW is designed to be played on a variety of computers and internet connection types.

    EDIT: And Lizardo221 above is right.
  1. BannedForViews's Avatar
    I think it's funny how someone instantly comes to blast his response. He talks more about a game he doesn't even work for than the people getting paid to do it. His response was very good and it isn't contradictory to his last one. Don't give them a thesis on what is bad. Treat it like a memo. This this and this are bad and this is why.

    For example, the 10% nerf to hood of eternal disdain is bad. It further unaligns the cool downs on Affliction dots which means you have to swap back and forth between targets refreshing dots at different intervals instead of being able to click through and refresh them all one after another, while having it be optimal play. It is obnoxious for no other reason that to be so. If a nerf is warranted, it would be better for the flow of the spec if the nerf came in the way of a small number reduction than by changing the dot durations.
  1. Kajean's Avatar
    If you're going to use the word clunky to describe something wrong with something, then it's not really any different from just saying "this is bad". Which may be very true, and it's fine to use in normal conversation. But when you give feedback, you need to actually be constructive. Saying that something is clunky doesn't help. What about it makes you feel like it is clunky? That's the point Ghostcrawler is trying to get across.
  1. Gadzooks's Avatar
    "I think “look down on” is overly harsh. I’d describe it more as mild frustration ranging to disappointment on our end, especially if the player is also angry and impatient in the same breath in which they are being really vague."

    That's well and good, but it's Celestalon you're talking about, who's openly rude and abrasive, and definitely dismissive.
  1. Fojos's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yes, and much of it is very clunky in design. That's why people use so many addons and whatnot. They help fix the problems.
    WoW is actually very fluid, especially compared to other online games. It's actually one of its major selling points, the response in controls don't seem like they're from the 90s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Ghostcrawler has no idea what "clunky" means as evidence from all the "clunky" garbage added in Cata and onwards during his career at Blizzard.

    "Clunky" is/was a well-established term that was easily identifiable in games. But somehow, because he's out of touch when it comes to game "clunk" he should dismiss it. The man worked on a top-down strategy game so he doesn't understand how much "clunk" ruins actual 3D games, especially ones with action and platforming mechanics.

    I'm completely flabergasting how someone like Greg Street, who used his time on Ages of Empire as an "educational learning experience" and then come to a "real game" like WoW and suddenly manage a major portion of the game's mechanics--class play.

    He's defaulting to mental gymnastics as usual.

    And just to provide an example of what constitutes as not only clunky, but fundamentally broken -- Rampage.

    Also smart-cast was finally added to alleviate the clunkiness of manually casting target circles.
    You obviously have no idea what clunky means.
  1. kamuimac's Avatar
    can you stop quoting usless dev who was universaly hated by community and in the end fired by blizzard ? its annoying like hell when dude who hasnt been working on game for past 3 years still comments instead comment on his amazing new position in riot.
  1. Aucald's Avatar
    "Clunky" is a very subjective term. Giving its definition is only helpful up to a point, because people experience things differently. You can become accustomed to something quite quickly and it ceases to feel clunky - or you can simply not have the required sensitivity to perceive said clunkiness. Sometimes it is only revealed when fixed and can only be seen or felt in hindsight, and sometimes it's just a matter of opinion like in the way some people prefer manual transmission in cars to automatic.

    We all know what "clunky" is or feels like, but when it's applicable is another matter entirely.
  1. Alayea's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    can you stop quoting usless dev who was universaly hated by community and in the end fired by blizzard ? its annoying like hell when dude who hasnt been working on game for past 3 years still comments instead comment on his amazing new position in riot.
    1.) I was no fan of Ghostcrawler either, but neither you nor I speak for everyone.

    2.) There is only one prominent person that I can think of that was fired by Blizzard, that being Tseric way back in mid-2007. When Ghostcrawler left Blizzard three years ago, it was on good terms.

    3.) While I disagree with a lot of design decisions that were influenced by Ghostcrawler even to this day (still sore over his "buff bitches" comment), I still read the posts because I find them to be an interesting perspective even though I may not necessarily agree.
  1. mmocf989bb3918's Avatar
    Just a short definition post using the same example.

    Killing creatures/mobs/trash

    Clunky: Tabbing through target creatures and accidently switching to a far away group due to clunky (bad) tabtargetting coding. <-- Yeah this is a current issue.
    Inefficient: Killing 10 creatures one by one to complete the quest.
    Efficient Pulling 10 creatures together and bomb them away with AoE.
    Broken: Can have three meanings. Needs to be specified further in what way it is broken.
    ---> Broken (too hard): Takes too much effort kill a single creature.
    ---> Broken (too easy): Takes close to no effort killing a creature.
    ---> Broken (bugged): Can't kill a creature because it is resetting itself due to terrain or other coding issues.
  1. Spartanicus's Avatar
    Celestalon plays WoW on an Ipad, doesn't posses the ability to do basic math to even begin balancing classes, and is a jerk to everyone he talks to. Who cares if that pile of garbage looks down on you.
  1. Syfus's Avatar
    More gc stuff? Nonsense ego in words... lets talk about wow and not gc feelings rofl
  1. Servasus's Avatar
    Sometimes I think the only people who need reminding that Ghostcrawler no longer works or speaks for Blizzard are the MMO-Champion admins.

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