Serious Discussion on DW tanking

[Deleted]

saying that dw tankin is as viable as a hunter in restogear is bullshit. as hunter you would only lose, and gain NOTHING, tanking as dw has some slight advantages. and measuring the advantages vs the disadvantages is always a relativ desicion. sometimes very obvious though, like in this case.

... As a DK DW tank, you also gain NOTHING.

I will try again, hopefully people will bother taking the time to read & understand it, rather than think i'm arguing for the sake of it, or because i dont know what i'm talking about:

2x Mandible of Beth'tilac (378) gives:

+350strenght (which also grants 87.5 parry)
+524stamina
+198mastery
+252dodge

1x skullstealer greataxe (378) gives (AFTER REFORGE):

+408strenght (which also grants 102 parry)
+611stamina
+265mastery
+110dodge (reforged from haste)
+166 haste

So, going from a 2h setup to a dw setup, what do you gain? 142 dodge. What do you loose? 58 strenght (which also includes loosing 14.5 parry), 87 stamina, 67 mastery, 166 haste, AND THREE TALENT POINTS, assuming a "dw dk tank" would be putting three points in nerves of cold steel.

In pure defensive stats, you loose 14.5 parry, 87 stamina, and 67 mastery, to gain 142 dodge. In absolute numbers the 2h gives MORE defensive stats (168.5 vs 142), after weighing stamina at 2/3rd the value of dodge/parry/mastery you end up with 139.5 vs 142. If you consider that mastery should weigh a tiny bit more than dodge/parry, there is essentially NO difference in defensive stats between 2x 1h tanking weapons and 1x reforged 2h weapon.

However, you ALSO loose 58 strenght, and 166 haste, which by itself is already a non-trivial hit to your dps/dmg.

If this is where the comparing ended, i wouldnt be so bothered by it. I mean, they would provide an similar amount of defensive stats while the 2h also brings more offensive stats through strenght & haste so to me there would be no discussion, but i wouldn't be so opposed to people discussing it, especially considering pure avoidance builds.

However, this is not where the comparing ends. After the above (same defensive stats, more offensive stats on the 2h), there is the tiny little HUGE issue of a dw only using his main hand for his abilites. So after already being behind in the stats department, you're cutting 40%+ from any ability damage that you do. To gain... nothing.

And because i'm sure that someone will argue this... I'm not opposed to pure avoidance builds. But if you're so die-hard about it that you're willing to make the above trade-off... that's the wrong choice.

Also... This is as clear as i can put it. If people read & understand the above and are still arguing that dw in any shape or form is something that merrits mentioning, i'm gonna bash my head against a wall and call it a day.

[Skygoneblue]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lose

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loose

Infracted

[Avatar Killer]

Last time I checked spell dmg weapons for Enhancement were still on par with (or even better than) dps weapons. Which is partly because they are dealing a small amount of damage with their main hand (lava lash is offhand only => only SS and Autohits are affected) and them doing a lot of their damage with abilities that scale with SP.
Also "half the damage with melee attacks" is far from the truth when factoring in that AP values with both weapons will be close.

auto attack damage mixed with windfury weapon lands the damage is much smaller than it should be which is WHY you would need massive spell damage to compensate. the AP factor is irrelivant when the weapon deals less than half the physical damage it should. the weapon damage scaling drops behind. there is no reason to care that it is similar when it begins to drop behind but this is a DK thread about melee damage not shaman stuff.

to Sky - we still do not coddle people on bad ideas because they think its ok. the reason people come here is to get ideas on stuff that works. you wouldn't have a mage melee if you could get him the gear to try. just like its a bad idea to DW tank as a DK based on all of the facts we keep bringing up. the dps and threat generation is not worth the "attempt" and we show you how before you fail even once. if you just like failing then by all means go DW tank (or melee as a mage) its your choice what you want to do. we just give you the best possible advice we can. if you choose to ignore it or rebuttal it that's your prerogative but it doesn't make it the best idea. In this thread its about DW possibilities... and the answer is simple:

you shouldn't because it is a bad idea based on the facts we have presented.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 08:53 AM ----------

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lose

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loose

Infracted

here come the grammar police.

[Drummerboy]

Based on Herpie's last post I would say 2-handers is well argued and proven superior for survivability which is really the point. I call this case closed and request for thread closing per forum rules before more terrible rebuttals follow.

[iorcedurmother]

People act as if threat is not an issue. I don't know if those people don't tank raids or chose to not acknowledge tank swap fights like ragnaros. If I was a DW tank our other tank would have to completely stop hitting him in order to not pull back off me, dropping the overall dps loss even further than what it would be from me DW tanking. I don't understand why people would want to do something that is just straight up worse than the alternative. We're trying to prevent you from causing fail raids or being kicked form groups. You people act like we're being elitist and are against any sub-optimal form of play, but really you're just being stubborn and won't accept that it's a horrible choice.

Pushing dps to as high as it can be is extremely important in this tier, especially in heroic. SO many fights involved dps races and tank dps is an important factor in that, and I'm not just talking about Alysrazor. If you DW tank, you're doing it wrong straight up.

[Darsithis]

People act as if threat is not an issue. I don't know if those people don't tank raids or chose to not acknowledge tank swap fights like ragnaros. If I was a DW tank our other tank would have to completely stop hitting him in order to not pull back off me, dropping the overall dps loss even further than what it would be from me DW tanking. I don't understand why people would want to do something that is just straight up worse than the alternative. We're trying to prevent you from causing fail raids or being kicked form groups. You people act like we're being elitist and are against any sub-optimal form of play, but really you're just being stubborn and won't accept that it's a horrible choice.

Pushing dps to as high as it can be is extremely important in this tier, especially in heroic. SO many fights involved dps races and tank dps is an important factor in that, and I'm not just talking about Alysrazor. If you DW tank, you're doing it wrong straight up.

I think that's where people are getting messed up. I don't believe that we're discussing DW tanking as it applies to cutting-edge fights. If you've got the final heroic boss on farm, then by all means, enjoy seeing what happens with DW tanking, and discuss it here.

[Avatar Killer]

I think that's where people are getting messed up. I don't believe that we're discussing DW tanking as it applies to cutting-edge fights. If you've got the final heroic boss on farm, then by all means, enjoy seeing what happens with DW tanking, and discuss it here.

So what we should discuss is messing around? if that was the case then you could try tanking as a shaman too with Rockbiter too... should we bring that up?

I risk a lot here by saying this but i think what the majority of us are trying to say is that the OP was assuming that its ok to DW tank even in raids "EFFECTIVELY" which we know will not work even before its a possibility again. I am not trying to undermine you in the least but this issue of DW tanking has been brought up more than a half dozen times before and it nearly ALWAYS involved people trolling about the possibility of it working.

we have proven it is not only sub par but nearly impossible based on the lack of threat EVEN with the huge increase. the damage output will still be sub par. it might work on 5 mans but so would shaman tanking too.

on the serious note i think most of us are trying to validate what should be done vs playing around in whatever you want. if playing around is what the OP wanted then why ask questions? just play around....

this is just what i have come to believe we have all been discussing.

[Nangz]

So what we should discuss is messing around? if that was the case then you could try tanking as a shaman too with Rockbiter too... should we bring that up?

I risk a lot here by saying this but i think what the majority of us are trying to say is that the OP was assuming that its ok to DW tank even in raids "EFFECTIVELY" which we know will not work even before its a possibility again. I am not trying to undermine you in the least but this issue of DW tanking has been brought up more than a half dozen times before and it nearly ALWAYS involved people trolling about the possibility of it working.

we have proven it is not only sub par but nearly impossible based on the lack of threat EVEN with the huge increase. the damage output will still be sub par. it might work on 5 mans but so would shaman tanking too.

on the serious note i think most of us are trying to validate what should be done vs playing around in whatever you want. if playing around is what the OP wanted then why ask questions? just play around....

this is just what i have come to believe we have all been discussing.

Well the thing is, dw tanking doesn't work. At least on the progression level. That being said, are you saying that its wrong to discuss something publicly that you find fun? There is nothing wrong with talking about this, if you don't like it, don't post. Simple as that.

[Avatar Killer]

Well the thing is, dw tanking doesn't work. At least on the progression level. That being said, are you saying that its wrong to discuss something publicly that you find fun? There is nothing wrong with talking about this, if you don't like it, don't post. Simple as that.

No, not wrong at all so as long as the posters know that its not feasible to DW tank on a progression level as the OP originally was asking.

It's the separation of progression raiding vs messing around that people need to understand is a difference. I know we cleared up the workable raiding situation but it seems that people still are presuming the same thing as me that we are discussing serious raid content.
I guess that was my fault then.

[Deleted]

Is it weird that i'm wondering if i should report moderators for trolling? Is there like an upper-mod who will read this, or will it just be these guys?

Here i was thinking that discussions about the viability of certain specs or builds should ALWAYS, unless clearly specified otherwise, be in regard to current, challenging content.

*Goes to paladin forums to make a thread about the viability of playing ret with a 1h + caster shield" => instant lock
*Goes to shammie forum to make a thread about the viability of shammie tanking" => instant lock
*Goes to DK forum to make a thread about the viability of DW tanking" => oh hey guys hf discussiong this for 12 pages, a discussion encouraged by mods, because hey it's fun to play around!

If you want to discuss that there is no way a death knight dw tank could pull enough dps to get a boss down you're free to explain you're reasoning and i'll feel free to disagree and explain mine.

I for one am part of the group who would not encourage dw tanking, however the discussion is important and if someone can make it work well more power to them.

I would also be willing to bet that some heroic firelands bosses would be killable with a DW dk tank since the only change is in threat output and minor stat differences.

To say that dw tanking is completely not viable is just foolish. I think most of us assume that we are talking about the highest levels of content ( at level 85) however even in level 85 normals and heroics dw tanking should have no problem.

There's two options really: trolling, or complete and utter ignorance. Neither seem very fitting for a forum admin.

Infracted

[InfernalKatana]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lose

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loose

Infracted

I get why it had to be infracted and why people have a backlash against "grammar police" as the guy above put it, but I'm not gonna lie, this is exactly what I was thinking while reading the post. It got to the point where I thought more about lose/loose than what he was actually saying. It was really distracting.

[SSHA778]

I really don't understand why trolling and flaming is so rampant among DW tanking threads.

What are the tangible differences between a DW and 2H tank holding ilevel constant?

-DW will do somewhere around 15% (last I recall from theorycrafting) less damage.

That's it.

There are enough floating talent points that the 3 points aren't a large factor. After the mandatory talents, no other talent really affects you in any significant way.

DW will more rapidly gain RP from SoB, but the amount gained is not generally significant, as RE only has a 45% chance to proc. With just a minimal amount of hit/expertise, a 2H tank would not be wasting much RP from SoB either (180 expertise rating). Played at peak, both should be GCD capped. Adding more abilities to the queue doesn't stop you from being GCD capped.

Threat is a non-factor. A DW tank now does more threat than a 2H tank did pre-buff. Don't fool yourself into thinking there's a threat problem.

Bloodworm healing massively overheals and is unreliable. Your healer doesn't stop casting because he thinks a bloodworm is about to explode. Adding more bloodworms changes nothing, especially on bosses with large hitboxes.

The stat gain is minimal at best. It is about 0.7% avoidance, which is not something that can be directly identified as the cause in logs unless your fights last three times as long as they should. Haste is slightly beneficial to DKs, but hardly at all. -.05s on your rune regeneration isn't going to change anything. The more dominant factor on rune regeneration is RE.

Recapping, the only difference is somewhere around 15% DPS.

Don't even throw the buzz words "viable" and "optimal" here. Any player that is pushing progression raiding or wanting to better themselves should know that losing 15% of your DPS and gaining nothing is ending up at an overall loss. You don't have to explain that to them.

The source of most DW threads seems to be players believing that DW tanking (because of the "stats") will fix their survivability problems. Obviously, it won't. The problem is not a stat difference. The problem is in their rotation. So if anyone suggests DW tanking, what you should do instead of flaming them is ask them why. If they say "for looks," then don't post anything back because it's already not a rational discussion. If they say for more survivability, then find out why their survivability is bad currently and try to help address that problem.

Again, the only tangible difference between DW and 2H is somewhere around 15% DPS. In that 1 line, players already have all the information they need to decide.

[Nyanmaru]

I get why it had to be infracted and why people have a backlash against "grammar police" as the guy above put it, but I'm not gonna lie, this is exactly what I was thinking while reading the post. It got to the point where I thought more about lose/loose than what he was actually saying. It was really distracting.

Please don't discuss infractions in an thread. Derailment like this will not be tolerated.

As to answer Herpies post: It's not allowed to post with the simple idea of calling someone or a whole topic trolling. The reason why this thread is open was explained earlier and I believe it's also addressed in the sticky.

[Avatar Killer]

The reason why this thread is open was explained earlier and I believe it's also addressed in the sticky.

Zao's post #162 to those interested as to why he left it open for discussion.


Another reason I believe it was left open is because with this new change it might have been possible to DW tank since we can get a shield by pressing Death Strike instead of having to make it land or do any damage.

The rest of the argument is in the thread about why it will still be sub par based on the miss issue of Death strike and so on. But if anyone comes up with some contradictory information proving otherwise please let us know as I personally would be interested in seeing the data on that. I hope they make a few more changes before it goes live.

[Cracka_Bob]

ok, so I have been testing the difference between DW and 2h blood tanking on the PTR and so far this is what I have come up with (training dummy results for now, so vengeance is not factored in):

DW does more melee damage than 2h and also procs more blood worms (and BCB if specced into it)
2h does more overall damage than DW (about 9k on average compared to 6-7k)
both have the same 4% avoidance, but I haven't gotten around to testing Fallen Crusader or Nerubian Carapace with DW yet
for some reason, DW blood worms heal for more than 2h blood worms (attack speed maybe?)

will do some more testing with groups (and vengeance obviously) and different runeforging once the PTR comes back up

[Zazey]

If you would spend 3 seconds on elitistjerk.com dk tanking forums, riggnaros ( one of the top if not the world top DK tank ) has made a very convenient spreadsheet on DK tanking... and its not hard to see without that anyway. DW is not good, period. First off, you shouldnt be reforging to exp or hit at all, considering it isnt a big problem. Second, you should be reforging to mastery, anywhere you cant you reforge to dodge/parry. Top tier you want to try to get as close to an even dodge/parry as possible, some prefer having a higher dodge just because it tends to be easier to stack dodge over parry looking at the majority of stats you will obtain from gear. However, the MAIN MAIN MAIN MAIN reason that 2h is far better is simple... Death strike. You will only gain about half as much shield as you would if you were 2h. Any1 contradicting this is downright blind, its been proven countless times and theres no argument for DW tanking. If for some reason they buff the DW tree to allow for your OH hit on DS add onto the main hand hit to give you a shield, then maybe, but until then its 2h tanking.

[Nillo]

1) Top tier you want to try to get as close to an even dodge/parry as possible, some prefer having a higher dodge just because it tends to be easier to stack dodge over parry looking at the majority of stats you will obtain from gear.
2) However, the MAIN MAIN MAIN MAIN reason that 2h is far better is simple... Death strike. You will only gain about half as much shield as you would if you were 2h. Any1 contradicting this is downright blind, its been proven countless times and theres no argument for DW tanking.

1) There's no reason to go for more dodge than parry.... besides it's nearly impossible to get dodge higher than parry anyway (thanks to several pieces having parry only and gaining parry from str)
2) Uhm I may be wrong - but why would DS only heal for half as much with a 1H?

[SSHA778]

However, the MAIN MAIN MAIN MAIN reason that 2h is far better is simple... Death strike. You will only gain about half as much shield as you would if you were 2h. Any1 contradicting this is downright blind

Here's my contradiction: reread the tooltip, please. It's been well over a year since DS's heal was based on damage.

There is zero difference in damage intake between a DW and 2H tank (ignoring the fairly negligible avoidance).

[exor]

ok, so I have been testing the difference between DW and 2h blood tanking on the PTR and so far this is what I have come up with (training dummy results for now, so vengeance is not factored in):

DW does more melee damage than 2h and also procs more blood worms (and BCB if specced into it)
2h does more overall damage than DW (about 9k on average compared to 6-7k)
both have the same 4% avoidance, but I haven't gotten around to testing Fallen Crusader or Nerubian Carapace with DW yet
for some reason, DW blood worms heal for more than 2h blood worms (attack speed maybe?)

will do some more testing with groups (and vengeance obviously) and different runeforging once the PTR comes back up

I say we wait and see what happens with the new patch. who know it could be fixed

[Brince]

Here's my contradiction: reread the tooltip, please. It's been well over a year since DS's heal was based on damage.

There is zero difference in damage intake between a DW and 2H tank (ignoring the fairly negligible avoidance).

Again this error, ds was NEVER based on damage. Original ds healed you for 5% our you health for each disease the target had. So uh dk got 15% healing and other dks 10%. To the debate, 9k instead of 6-7k is a huge difference no matter what you guys can say. Chosing dw is just a selfish decision to slow down your raid and we're already the dead weight tank with the worst dps and mitigation. Gimping ourselves further is just a really bad idea.