Ross Perot says America could be "taken over" by a hostile force.

[PizzaSHARK]

60 yrs ago I would agree but with the U.N. and other entities having more firepower than any citizen I'm skeptical. tank>gun Chopper>gun RPG>gun. Yea we got firearms but that won't do shit to an organized army.

Insurgents in the Middle East are basically making fertilizer bombs and using hand-me-down rifles from whatever organization that's supplying them and look at what they've accomplished. We've had a heavy presence in that area for how long now and we still don't have everything under wraps?

Tanks are useless in an urban setting and it's not like civilians would hop into their Escalade and try to take on a tank in an open field, where the tank is actually useful. Helicopters have serious limitations, and you don't use RPGs against humans.

Less video game logic, more real life logic please

[Deleted]

Actually, invasion isn't that far sought.

However, its not by firearms, it'll be done through Wall Street. And lol nukes? If you drop a nuke on them, we drop a nuke on you. The world doesn't stand for nukes anymore.

[igame]

Who wants to inherit a 17 trillion $ debt as spoils of war !?

[Bobdoletoo]

Maybe he got jazzed up after seeing the new red dawn trailer? Maybe he has friend's in south/central America who see a massive army buildup to take over? Maybe he's just crazy? It could be any of these. It could also be just his imagination.

[jbombard]

Okay everyone put on your tin foil hats, cuz I'm going to break down the scenario.
1) China already develops a ton of electronic products that are installed in everything from infrastructure, utilities, to military weaponry.
2) America's is still not remotely good at preventing cyber attacks, although we have gotten better at shutting them down and tracking them after the fact.
3) China owns the U.S. debt.
4) Much of our economy is dependent on China.
5) Just about any politician can be bought in Washington, as long as they were properly deceived and didn't *think* it was treason.
6) Millions of containers come into our ports everyday from China.
7) China has proven technology to shoot down satellites.
8) A great deal of our military technology is dependent on those satellites.

I believe the number was 90% of companies surveyed had an attempt to breach corporate networks last year, and more than half of those were successful to some degree. How hard would it really be for China to get some custom malware installed in some very specific companies designed to tank the economy?

How much of an economic shove would America need right now to get some riots rolling?(Especially if they had some people on the ground to help get people riled up) What would happen if American infrastructure was shut down via backdoors in the electrical components supplied by China that we are using in these facilities. Then it was blamed on the rioters, those damn "tea cuppers" or "liberals", whatever. After the riot reports have been out a bit, then they take out our satellites and our broadcasting abilites, and activate communication jamming technology from the chinese electronic components installed in our communication equipment. Once they have shut down people's ability to communicate, open up the containers at the ports and offload the soldiers and tanks. How far could they get before anyone knew what the hell was going on?

[obdigore]

Okay everyone put on your tin foil hats, cuz I'm going to break down the scenario.
1) China already develops a ton of electronic products that are installed in everything from infrastructure, utilities, to military weaponry.
2) America's is still not remotely good at preventing cyber attacks, although we have gotten better at shutting them down and tracking them after the fact.

this isn't true at all

3) China owns the U.S. debt.

also false

4) Much of our economy is dependent on China.

no more than the Chinese economy is dependent on the US.

5) Just about any politician can be bought in Washington, as long as they were properly deceived and didn't *think* it was treason.
6) Millions of containers come into our ports everyday from China.
7) China has proven technology to shoot down satellites.
8) A great deal of our military technology is dependent on those satellites.

I believe the number was 90% of companies surveyed had an attempt to breach corporate networks last year, and more than half of those were successful to some degree. How hard would it really be for China to get some custom malware installed in some very specific companies designed to tank the economy?

extremely difficult. Small start-ups are utterly different than large credit companies/defense contractors.

How much of an economic shove would America need right now to get some riots rolling?(Especially if they had some people on the ground to help get people riled up) What would happen if American infrastructure was shut down via backdoors in the electrical components supplied by China that we are using in these facilities. Then it was blamed on the rioters, those damn "tea cuppers" or "liberals", whatever. After the riot reports have been out a bit, then they take out our satellites and our broadcasting abilites, and activate communication jamming technology from the chinese electronic components installed in our communication equipment. Once they have shut down people's ability to communicate, open up the containers at the ports and offload the soldiers and tanks. How far could they get before anyone knew what the hell was going on?

You know absolutely nothing about electronic equipment, network security, or really anything else your 'scenario' depends on. The only thing you are right about is that China builds (not develops, we go Indian for development) a lot of electronics.

[jbombard]

this isn't true at all also false no more than the Chinese economy is dependent on the US. extremely difficult. Small start-ups are utterly different than large credit companies/defense contractors.


You know absolutely nothing about electronic equipment, network security, or really anything else your 'scenario' depends on. The only thing you are right about is that China builds (not develops, we go Indian for development) a lot of electronics.

If you think America is good a preventing cyber attacks, you haven't talked to a single security expert, or seen a military brief on cyber warfare I take it. Read up on it, it will we do you some good. We absolutely suck at prevention.

China is the 3rd largest holder of our debt at somewhere between 8%-10%. We are talking trillions of dollars here. Also that is only behind what America owes to social security and the federal reserve. The amount of debt owned by American citizens(or any other country) is far below what China owns.

China could create far more havoc with the U.S. economy than the U.S. could hope to create in China. Mostly because the chance of getting any kind of law passed in the U.S. to do anything would require a consensus in Congress which we all know is impossible. Just look at all the havoc they have created so far just by manipulating the value of their currency. Chinese government can do whatever the hell they want.

I know of 2 defense contractors that got hacked by the Chinese last year. What is your point. Most large American corporations are far easier to hack than defense contractors, but we aren't talking script kiddies here we are talking very specifically targeted attacks, where people working at these companies are researched and exploitable attack vectors are thoroughly analyzed. If Chinese want in, their are very few companies out there that can stop(or even detect) a targeted attack.

Also I fear that you are the one who knows nothing about electronic equipment, the kind of software development that commonly gets outsourced to India is the kind people use. The kind hardware uses is called firmware and China is perfectly capable of developing their own.

Is this scenario likely, not really. Could it happen, sure it could.

[obdigore]

If you think America is good a preventing cyber attacks, you haven't talked to a single security expert, or seen a military brief on cyber warfare I take it. Read up on it, it will we do you some good. We absolutely suck at prevention.

China is the 3rd largest holder of our debt at somewhere between 8%-10%. We are talking trillions of dollars here. Also that is only behind what America owes to social security and the federal reserve. The amount of debt owned by American citizens(or any other country) is far below what China owns.

China could create far more havoc with the U.S. economy than the U.S. could hope to create in China. Mostly because the chance of getting any kind of law passed in the U.S. to do anything would require a consensus in Congress which we all know is impossible. Just look at all the havoc they have created so far just by manipulating the value of their currency. Chinese government can do whatever the hell they want.

I know of 2 defense contractors that got hacked by the Chinese last year. What is your point. Most large American corporations are far easier to hack than defense contractors, but we aren't talking script kiddies here we are talking very specifically targeted attacks, where people working at these companies are researched and exploitable attack vectors are thoroughly analyzed. If Chinese want in, their are very few companies out there that can stop(or even detect) a targeted attack.

Also I fear that you are the one who knows nothing about electronic equipment, the kind of software development that commonly gets outsourced to India is the kind people use. The kind hardware uses is called firmware and China is perfectly capable of developing their own.

Is this scenario likely, not really. Could it happen, sure it could.

I work in this field were are discussing. American corporations are no more or less 'good' at preventing intrusions than other corporations. And each corporation is different. If you had mentioned that RSA had their Seed stolen, then we could talk because you might know what you are talking about.

Not to mention the 'debt' china owns is giving the US free money. But if you did your research you would know that too.

[Kesolovac]

Guys...invasion takes so much preparation. Invasion of a big ass country like USA? Almost impossible! And then the fact that most of Americans have guns? I pity the fool that tries to invade US. And do not forget that USA has the largest military spending in the world by far.

Maybe some small terrorist incursions, and then small scale attacks on population. But that would just piss the US government, and the terrorist backers would die horribly.

[bobo333]

The day we stop allowing biased, business/contract-focused Texans to enter the political venue is the day we will be taken over by a hostile force - a hostile force named "reason."

like, upvote, thumbs up. fuck it. take my first born son too

[Amsden]

Who wants to inherit a 17 trillion $ debt as spoils of war !?

The war would more than like come from the fact that it will likely never actually be paid back.

[jbombard]

I work in this field were are discussing. American corporations are no more or less 'good' at preventing intrusions than other corporations. And each corporation is different. If you had mentioned that RSA had their Seed stolen, then we could talk because you might know what you are talking about.

Not to mention the 'debt' china owns is giving the US free money. But if you did your research you would know that too.

LMAO if you worked in the field I doubt you would be so oblivious. It doesn't matter how good other corporations are at it. It doesn't matter if it gets detected after the damage is done, especially if it was just one piece of a larger attack. And Yes Lockheed Martin was the company related to the compromised RSA seeds, the other was not. Maybe you work in IT, you definitely don't work in security if you think the U.S. is good at preventing cyber attacks.

By the way, it is only free money until China decides they want it back.

[obdigore]

LMAO if you worked in the field I doubt you would be so oblivious. It doesn't matter how good other corporations are at it. It doesn't matter if it gets detected after the damage is done, especially if it was just one piece of a larger attack. And Yes Lockheed Martin was the company related to the compromised RSA seeds, the other was not. Maybe you work in IT, you definitely don't work in security if you think the U.S. is good at preventing cyber attacks.

By the way, it is only free money until China decides they want it back.

1) Different corporations are different. You keep saying 'the US' as if somehow the US government decides how US corporations protect themselves. I never said US corporations are good at preventing intrusions. I said they are just as good as other corporations across the world.
2) China does not just get to decide they 'want their money back'. You don't know what bonds are, or how they work.

You have bought the fearmongering, and now you try to post it as fact.

[jbombard]

1) Different corporations are different. You keep saying 'the US' as if somehow the US government decides how US corporations protect themselves. I never said US corporations are good at preventing intrusions. I said they are just as good as other corporations across the world.
2) China does not just get to decide they 'want their money back'. You don't know what bonds are, or how they work.

You have bought the fearmongering, and now you try to post it as fact.

1) The point is that how good non-us corporations are preventing intrusions is irrelevant to the topic of a U.S. attack, yet how poor the U.S. is at it is a very big problem for the U.S.. This is one of the reasons why the U.S. government and military want more power to deal with cyberattacks, because corporations don't give a rats ass about it unless it affects the bottom line. In other words if the cost of prevention is more than the cost of intrusion, then most corporations aren't going to go the extra mile. However if the attack was not meant to hurt the corporation, but to hurt the economy, infrastrucure, power grid, etc..., then the cost to the corporation may be quite low, but the cost to America could be quite high. Since we know that most corporations aren't going to go the extra mile, the government or the military need to be the ones to protect the American people from this kind of attack. Unfortunately they do no have the power to do so, and there is a gaping hole where this security should be.

2) First of all, China holds bonds and treasury notes and I am pretty sure they don't have to buy more bonds/notes when those mature, and can actually ask for the money.

There is no fearmongering here, there is just speculation about what is possible. It doesn't mean it is remotely likely to happen. If what is possible scares you then I apologize, but the intent wasn't to cause fear.

[Phlegethon]

Article here http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/a...152428497.html

I think it's ridiculous and dumb for him to say that. I don't see any way that could happen.



Do you think America could be invaded and taken over by a hostile force?

I don't think he means "by force". The buyout of the US should be rather easy at the moment...

"The last thing I ever want to see is our country taken over because we're so financially weak, we can't do anything," Perot says.

Also, the hostile force might just be in your own country.

[obdigore]

1) The point is that how good non-us corporations are preventing intrusions is irrelevant to the topic of a U.S. attack, yet how poor the U.S. is at it is a very big problem for the U.S.. This is one of the reasons why the U.S. government and military want more power to deal with cyberattacks, because corporations don't give a rats ass about it unless it affects the bottom line. In other words if the cost of prevention is more than the cost of intrusion, then most corporations aren't going to go the extra mile. However if the attack was not meant to hurt the corporation, but to hurt the economy, infrastrucure, power grid, etc..., then the cost to the corporation may be quite low, but the cost to America could be quite high. Since we know that most corporations aren't going to go the extra mile, the government or the military need to be the ones to protect the American people from this kind of attack. Unfortunately they do no have the power to do so, and there is a gaping hole where this security should be.

2) First of all, China holds bonds and treasury notes and I am pretty sure they don't have to buy more bonds/notes when those mature, and can actually ask for the money.

There is no fearmongering here, there is just speculation about what is possible. It doesn't mean it is remotely likely to happen. If what is possible scares you then I apologize, but the intent wasn't to cause fear.

1) Please, tell me how anything that an intrustion does to a corporation that would damage the 'economy, infrastructure, power grid' wouldn't also hurt the corporation?
2) They are paid on time and when they mature China will be paid. Just like every other investor in the world who buys bonds and tnotes from the US Government.

I'm not scared, or afraid, just trying to correct your ignorance.

[jbombard]

1) Please, tell me how anything that an intrustion does to a corporation that would damage the 'economy, infrastructure, power grid' wouldn't also hurt the corporation?
2) They are paid on time and when they mature China will be paid. Just like every other investor in the world who buys bonds and tnotes from the US Government.

I'm not scared, or afraid, just trying to correct your ignorance.

Lol ironic, as you still haven't proven a single point from your original post.
1) If the systems of that corporation were in turn used to damage to somebody else the damage to the compromised company would be minimal. Do some thinking outside the box. Or just some thinking in general.
2) Lol you were the one who said it was free money... thank you for proving yourself wrong?

Also if you look at the top of my original post, note the put on your tin foil hat statement, it was meant to be a tongue in cheek conspiracy theory. You are taking this far too seriously... which would be fine if everything you said after that wasn't false.

[PizzaSHARK]

Also if you look at the top of my original post, note the put on your tin foil hat statement, it was meant to be a tongue in cheek conspiracy theory. You are taking this far too seriously... which would be fine if everything you said after that wasn't false.

You should probably hush now. You're apparently taking it just as seriously as obdigore is; the only difference is that he's not copping an attitude to cover for inconsistencies in his position.

[obdigore]

Lol ironic, as you still haven't proven a single point from your original post.
1) If the systems of that corporation were in turn used to damage to somebody else the damage to the compromised company would be minimal. Do some thinking outside the box. Or just some thinking in general.
2) Lol you were the one who said it was free money... thank you for proving yourself wrong?

Also if you look at the top of my original post, note the put on your tin foil hat statement, it was meant to be a tongue in cheek conspiracy theory. You are taking this far too seriously... which would be fine if everything you said after that wasn't false.

1) So you say 'think outside the box' instead of proving how any of this is possible. You can't just magically take over a companies systems and use them as your own. It does not work like in the last Die Hard movie, which is what you seem to be basing this entire speculation off of.
2) It is free money. The rates offered on the tbills are lower than interest rates.

I do appreciate you trying to gracefully back away from this argument when you know you are wrong.

[Vuljatar]

Regardless of our military's domestic defense capabilities, as long as the second amendment is upheld we will never have to worry about being invaded by any (human) army.

Just one of it's many benefits. We have guns, and everyone knows it. It is both a deterrent and a defense.