Election Night 2012 **Official Thread**

[Jackmoves]

I kind of like that site, not sure how accurate it is though.

EU


US pres 2012

[Deleted]

I don't think going to a 3 party system would change much in America... I mean, just ask England. They're having the same division problems as we do and they have 3 dominant parties.

The problem is not with the number of parties in the UK per se, but with the electoral system culminating in an effective 2-party state, because of the way the elections are set up (first-past-the-post).

Sweden currently has 8 parties in parliament and I daresay we're doing just fine. You need a new electoral system, that's all. One that's actually fair and representative.

[Mnevis]

Libertarians believe in a perfect world though.

[Dispersedshadow]

I couldn't see anything further than the truth than having 'Libertarian' and 'Progressive' near each other. Without government compulsion, progressivism dies.

I think that's relayed perfectly in the chart - look at where anarchy is placed. Pure social progressivism (i.e. Libertarian ideals of personal freedom, as opposed to authoritarianism) doesn't work well as a "system" when mixed with a pure economic progressivism.

[bergmann620]

Libertarians believe in a perfect world though.

I don't believe in a perfect world- I just don't believe that government has corner on ways to make the world more perfect.

[Deleted]

Sweden currently has 8 parties in parliament and I daresay we're doing just fine. You need a new electoral system, that's all. One that's actually fair and representative.

You can basically count 'em down to four though - the left, the right, the anti-immigration and the green.

[Tradewind]

You can basically count 'em down to four though - the left, the right, the anti-immigration and the green.

Sounds like Canada lol, just replace anti-immigration with "that french party."

[Baracuda]

The problem is not with the number of parties in the UK per se, but with the electoral system culminating in an effective 2-party state, because of the way the elections are set up (first-past-the-post).

Sweden currently has 8 parties in parliament and I daresay we're doing just fine. You need a new electoral system, that's all. One that's actually fair and representative.

Yeah 2 of them are under the limit in opinion polls, it has even been suggested to combine the 4 alliance parties into 1 big party so they'll have a bigger chance of winning. In reality we too have 2-3 parties. Alliance vs Opposition or Alliance vs RedGreen+Sweden Democrats or Everyone vs Sweden Democrats

But that's rather off-topic you know, let's focus on the US.

[Rukentuts]

I'm so dumb. How could I have not realized that something that you say is true is true, and the internet-at-large is incorrect, simply through your force of will.

Go edit wikipedia so you can quote it back to me. I'll wait

That same article says almost all political scientists regard fascism as a far-right system of government. Read further.

[Jackmoves]

Yeah 2 of them are under the limit in opinion polls, it has even been suggested to combine the 4 alliance parties into 1 big party so they'll have a bigger chance of winning. In reality we too have 2-3 parties. Alliance vs Opposition or Alliance vs RedGreen+Sweden Democrats or Everyone vs Sweden Democrats

But that's rather off-topic you know, let's focus on the US.

My uncle lives in Täby, he's literally the only one out campaiging for the Center party during elections, it's such a laugh, +50% votes for the moderates out there. He's all alone!

[Paranoid Android]

I VOTED

Funny how just doing a simple and easy thing makes me feel proud. Everyone get out and vote!

[Mnevis]

I don't believe in a perfect world- I just don't believe that government has corner on ways to make the world more perfect.

Yeah, no one believes that, so I don't know how it's relevant. But if you're a libertarian, you believe in a world where big banks won't make deals that benefit themselves to the tune of billions of dollars and cost their customers and taxpayers, because the free market will correct them for it. Same with a chemical company not dumping carcinogens in people's backyards. The world just doesn't work that way.

Alan Greenspan believed it did, and didn't think the derivatives market should be regulated, because on an institution-wide level, there was no danger from fraud. After the financial crisis, he said plainly to Congress, that his worldview was flawed in that regard.

[Puremallace]

Interesting thing Facebook is doing

http://www.facebookstories.com/vote

[bergmann620]

That same article says almost all political scientists regard fascism as a far-right system of government. Read further.

Actually, I read that 'certain' scholars say that. It also said:

There is a scholarly consensus that fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational A number of historians have regarded fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine which mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things

Also, I don't agree at all with the following:

A major element of fascism that has been deemed as clearly far-right is its goal to promote the right of claimed superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements.

That seems much, much more in line with early progressivism, which has consistently been left-of-center.

This all gets back to the question of, 'What are conservatives conserving?' and similarly, 'What are progressives progressing towards?'

Conservative/right in Europe falls back toward the aristocracy and royalty, while in the U.S., it falls back toward the Founders and constitutional government. Well, at least until politicians get ahold of it. One could make the argument that a 'classical liberal' like, say, Thomas Jefferson, would be a left-leaning liberal in 18th century Europe, but a right-leaning conservative in the modern U.S.

[Grizzly Willy]

@Mnevis
Applying such a narrow view to the libertarian label excludes a wide range of libertarians. I fall under the libertarian label, but according to the political compass test I am more liberal and libertarian than Jill Stein.

[Rukentuts]

Bergmann, you're just cherry-picking at this point and ignoring most of the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism...tical_spectrum

The majority of this section details on why it is right-wing.

[zerocarbs]

But if you're a libertarian, you believe in a world where big banks won't make deals that benefit themselves to the tune of billions of dollars and cost their customers and taxpayers, because the free market will correct them for it. Same with a chemical company not dumping carcinogens in people's backyards.

I think people like yourself get confused and associate a free market system with the absence of law and individual rights which just isn't what the free market is about at all.

[bergmann620]

Yeah, no one believes that, so I don't know how it's relevant. But if you're a libertarian, you believe in a world where big banks won't make deals that benefit themselves to the tune of billions of dollars and cost their customers and taxpayers, because the free market will correct them for it. Same with a chemical company not dumping carcinogens in people's backyards. The world just doesn't work that way.

Alan Greenspan believed it did, and didn't think the derivatives market should be regulated, because on an institution-wide level, there was no danger from fraud. After the financial crisis, he said plainly to Congress, that his worldview was flawed in that regard.

As a libertarian, I believe in basic government protection. I believe that everyone is out essentially to do the best for themselves, so I do business primarily with local entities that I can have a measure of trust in. I don't believe in legal entities such as corporations, which allow banks and other companies to go seek ridiculous schemes by shielding shareholders from liability.

There's a difference between being an ideological puritan and simply believing that the government has exceeded its' bounds in regard to the social contract, to the detriment of society.

[Mnevis]

I think people like yourself get confused and associate a free market system with the absence of law and individual rights which just isn't what the free market is about at all.

Not entirely. I'm well aware that in the libertarian world, if a company violates the law and harms people or their property, they can be sued or criminally punished. I just think that's proven to be small hindrance to the aims of our corporate overlords. Make a few billion dollars, and if you have to pay a few million settling a class action with the little guys who got cancer, it's a small price to pay.

@Mnevis
Applying such a narrow view to the libertarian label excludes a wide range of libertarians. I fall under the libertarian label, but according to the political compass test I am more liberal and libertarian than Jill Stein.

I suppose my wording was too general, as I do not aim to paint whole groups of people as believing exactly the same thing.

However, in my defense, I have voted Libertarian, but I think the me that did was naive. I don't want a leftist dictatorship telling me everything I can and cannot do, but I think there is a very, very valuable role for a strong central government in regulating industry and stabilizing the economy.

[Jackmoves]

Facism is certainly far right wing, at least in Europe, neo-nazis etc.

You even got groups like AFA(anti fascist action) which is 100% leftwing who violantly will fight facist groups.