Should father have any say about abortion?

[gnomergon]

It really really depends on the situation. If it is the result of a one night stand, or similar circumstances, then no. That was purely about sex, and for the guy to come back and be like "BUT I WANT DA BABY HURR DURR" is retarded.

the biggest exception i see is a married couple, in which case i feel like it really must be discussed between the couple. I feel like there should be a mandatory *notification* for the father, but he shouldn't have an overriding say in it. I mean, it is after all, the woman's burden to endure.

[Myrrar]

That is the most confusing out of place analogy ever. I'm not forcing you to eat cookies (have babies). I'm saying you can't make the cookies if i'm not willing to supply my half of the cooking ingredients. The cookies are under a joint copyright and without my approval, you have to terminate bakery of a formentioned cookies.

Except you dont go into a law abiding agreement before you have sex. Shit, if I sign something that says if we screw and I get prego I'll keep the kid sure, I'll keep it.

[Deleted]

If a woman gives birth to a baby, and it lives with the father (for whatever reason) and not the mother, is she required to pay child support?

Yes, she is. The one who the child support is paid to in Sweden is to the one who the child is with the most. If the child is with the father the most then the mother is paying the child support. If the child is with the mother, then the father is paying the child support.

(If I understood it correctly when reading about it in the past. I could be wrong but I believe that is what it said regarding child support.)

[anisadora]

I agree here. However, if a man does not want a child but would rather save the life of his unborn child rather than kill it though abortion (because he does not believe in abortion ethically), he should have the right to deny the abortion as long as it is deemed safe for the woman to bear the child.

The second a man and women mutually decide to have sex, they are both agreeing to be equally responsible for any unforeseen accidents. It IS unfortunate that should a pregnancy occur, ONLY the woman can incubate it (thus part of the responsibility is unfairly ONLY hers yet unavoidable), but none the less, it is part of the mutual agreement of having sex.

That being said, if the women dies giving birth even though she was deemed fit to bare a child. Then yes, too bad for her. She knew that was a risk she had to bare alone when she got pregnant, just like every other women in the world who gets pregnant, willingly or not.

To deny the father this right is to deny the ownership of the baby as being equally between the father and mother. If you deny this right, then no fathers have any responsibility to any birth they cause legally (not rape).

No. No. No. No. She wasnt consenting to carrying his parasite. She was consenting to having a sexual encounter with him. A consent she can take away at any point in time - legally speaking. Even if she said she was willing to become pregnant and carry to term, she was also not signing up for any unforseen consequences and complications.

A fetus is not a baby. A fetus BECOMES a baby.

"If A will be B, A is B" does not make logical sense.

The next president of the united states cannot declare war on any other country until he IS the president of the united states.

A fetus has no legal rights. It is not a person. The smallest rights of the woman trump the highest rights of the fetus. Until the fetus is able to live on it's own outside of the person carrying it - it is for all intents and purposes (with the exception of being of another species) a parasite.

You cannot force me to carry a parasite for you. Find someone who wants one in their uterus.

edited in, for more examples:

an egg is not a chicken. an egg will hatch into a chicken.

ore is not a car. ore is turned into bars, which are then turned into parts, which are then turned into car.

an acorn is not a tree.


see the theme?

[Elim Garak]

Let's talk some real sense and make a legitimate comparison.

The crux of this argument is - "it's her body" - bringing a fetus to term.
It's hard to deal with it as is - without a basis for comparison.
So let's turn it into money, 'cause it's money that unwilling fathers have to pay.

A surrogate mother can expect a payment of $5000-30000, depending on her experience and circumstances.
So a "woman's body" is worth $30000 tops (second or third time mothers), in regards to giving birth.
This is what women charge for going thru the term. The market price.
No ifs, no buts.
This is it, folks. You can google it yourselves. I did.

An unwilling father has to pay part of his net income for 18 years.
The poverty line in US is $11000 for single person and $22000 for family of four.
Father paying child support is a family of three - let's say the line is $15000.
That is income per year. Before taxes.
After taxes it would be ~$13000.
For this income he's paying ~$250 per month for child support. That is $3000 per year.
For 18 years. That is $54000.
The poorest possible father that is.

Now if we take someone "richer" who earns $60000 per year (that is ~$48000 after taxes).
It would be ~$800 per month payed to child support. That is $9600 per year.
$172800 total in 18 years.

Someone earning $100000 per year would pay ~$1200 per month to child support - $14400 per year - $259200 in 18 years.

$30000 < $54000 << $172800 <<< $259200

Conclusions? Draw your own.
I'll just point it out once more in bold: $30000 - this is how women value their body in context of child birth.
Btw, a newbie surrogate mother costs $5000.

I think if it's a woman's first child - unwilling father should just make one-time payment of $5000 (payment for woman's bodily troubles) and be free.

[LiiLoSNK]

Except you dont go into a law abiding agreement before you have sex. Shit, if I sign something that says if we screw and I get prego I'll keep the kid sure, I'll keep it.

And that's where I think it should be different in the sense that the father should have a say in the matter. You shouldn't be able to keep something that's only half yours. It gives women the option to go "Oh man this guy is loaded. Instead of quickly aborting the potential child, I'm gonna carry it in me for 9 months and then make fat bank"

[Deleted]

I'll just point it out once more in bold: $30000 - this is how women value their body in context of child birth.

...

That is how certain surrogate mothers value their body in context of child birth. Not all women.

And that's where I think it should be different in the sense that the father should have a say in the matter. You shouldn't be able to keep something that's only half yours. It gives women the option to go "Oh man this guy is loaded. Instead of quickly aborting the potential child, I'm gonna carry it in me for 9 months and then make fat bank"

They should be able to keep it. The father however should have the option to opt out of paying child support if it's done before the abortion time frame is over.

[anisadora]

Let's talk some real sense and make a legitimate comparison.

The crux of this argument is - "it's her body" - bringing a fetus to term.
It's hard to deal with it as is - without a basis for comparison.
So let's turn it into money, 'cause it's money that unwilling fathers have to pay.

A surrogate mother can expect a payment of $5000-30000, depending on her experience and circumstances.
So a "woman's body" is worth $30000 tops (second or third time mothers), in regards to giving birth.
This is what women charge for going thru the term. The market price.
No ifs, no buts.
This is it, folks. You can google it yourselves. I did.

An unwilling father has to pay part of his net income for 18 years.
The poverty line in US is $11000 for single person and $22000 for family of four.
Father paying child support is a family of three - let's say the line is $15000.
That is income per year. Before taxes.
After taxes it would be ~$13000.
For this income he's paying ~$250 per month for child support. That is $3000 per year.
For 18 years. That is $54000.
The poorest possible father that is.

Now if we take someone "richer" who earns $60000 per year (that is ~$48000 after taxes).
It would be ~$800 per month payed to child support. That is $9600 per year.
$172800 total in 18 years.

Someone earning $100000 per year would pay ~$1200 per month to child support - $14400 per year - $259200 in 18 years.

$30000 < $54000 << $172800 <<< $259200

Conclusions? Draw your own.
I'll just point it out once more in bold: $30000 - this is how women value their body in context of child birth.
Btw, a newbie surrogate mother costs $5000.

I think if it's a woman's first child - unwilling father should just make one-time payment of $5000 (payment for woman's bodily troubles) and be free.

Wow. I would hate to be whoever youre trying to sleep with. Please, if you ever somehow meet me, state how fucking creepy you are.

I dont believe the male should make ANY payment whatsoever, if he signs away his rights, responsibilities (moral, financial, etc) while the fetus is able to be terminated. And I havnt seen a single female in this thread state otherwise. That isn't the issue we are arguing about. We are arguing about whether the male has any right to say what the female should do with her body.

[Myrrar]

And that's where I think it should be different in the sense that the father should have a say in the matter. You shouldn't be able to keep something that's only half yours. It gives women the option to go "Oh man this guy is loaded. Instead of quickly aborting the potential child, I'm gonna carry it in me for 9 months and then make fat bank"

Like I said, I completely agree that child support is ridiculous right now. 1/2 the girls I knew in high school got knocked up in their early 20s and are now single moms. Some of them, the dads were assholes and ditched them after the baby was born. Some of them, honestly kept it knowing well they would get a ton of money out of the dad.

The whole thing needs to be redone. The answer is giving both sexes equality when it comes to opting out, not taking away more rights. Since the woman has to carry the kid(until science can perfect test tube babies) she shouldn't have to carry it, but in no way should the man have to have the burden of paying for a kid he didn't want.

Thats the beauty of the abortion timeframe. As long as she tells him before its up he should have to right to bail. If she(or he) doesn't believe in abortion, she should have thought about that before having sex.

[gnomergon]

I feel like the only way to really end this argument is for science to advance to a point where women can have a transference abortion, where the embryo is removed, and able to be implanted into a surrogate mother.

this way the woman neither has to carry the baby to term, nor does the man have to let his child be aborted. though i think this should entail the woman losing her rights to the child, with the father bearing the burden of costs for all procedures, except perhaps for some abortion-cost-fee that either the man or woman must pay. not sure which i feel is more correct...

[anisadora]

I feel like the only way to really end this argument is for science to advance to a point where women can have a transference abortion, where the embryo is removed, and able to be implanted into a surrogate mother.

this way the woman neither has to carry the baby to term, nor does the man have to let his child be aborted. though i think this should entail the woman losing her rights to the child, with the father bearing the burden of costs for all procedures, except perhaps for some abortion-cost-fee that either the man or woman must pay. not sure which i feel is more correct...

Nah. If we're aiming for something we should aim for scientists to shrink the baby down and put it in the man. He can then push it out his urethra and cause all the delicious tearing, rips, scars, stretchmarks and pain to himself that he wanted to inflict on his unwilling partner. Earn that baby, biotch.

[Elim Garak]

...

That is how certain surrogate mothers value their body in context of child birth. Not all women.

This is the price in money. And please note surrogate mothers can not keep the baby. This is something that prevents all women to be surrogate mothers. Not the "it's not enough money" issue. Women who WANT to have a baby - do it for free. These women are irrelevant though. I am talking about women who do not want to have babies - but have them for money and then give babies away. This service costs more. So no. You argument is invalid.

[LiiLoSNK]

Like I said, I completely agree that child support is ridiculous right now. 1/2 the girls I knew in high school got knocked up in their early 20s and are now single moms. Some of them, the dads were assholes and ditched them after the baby was born. Some of them, honestly kept it knowing well they would get a ton of money out of the dad.

The whole thing needs to be redone. The answer is giving both sexes equality when it comes to opting out, not taking away more rights. Since the woman has to carry the kid(until science can perfect test tube babies) she shouldn't have to carry it, but in no way should the man have to have the burden of paying for a kid he didn't want.

Thats the beauty of the abortion timeframe. As long as she tells him before its up he should have to right to bail. If she(or he) doesn't believe in abortion, she should have thought about that before having sex.

This works. I never wanted to be able to force someone to have a baby just because I want to have a child.

[Deleted]

This is the price in money. And please note surrogate mothers can not keep the baby. This is something that prevents all women to be surrogate mothers. Not the "it's not enough money" issue. Women who WANT to have a baby - do it for free. These women are irrelevant though. I am talking about women who do not want to have babies - but have them for money and then give babies away. This service costs more. So no. You argument is invalid.

How is my argument invalid? You specifically said THIS IS HOW WOMEN VALUE THEIR BODY IN CONTEXT OF CHILD BIRTH.

Do you not remember what you wrote? You did NOT mention "this is how surrogate mothers value their body in context of child birth".

[Elim Garak]

Wow. I would hate to be whoever youre trying to sleep with. Please, if you ever somehow meet me, state how fucking creepy you are.

Why are you attacking my persona? I never mentioned myself in that text.

I dont believe the male should make ANY payment whatsoever, if he signs away his rights, responsibilities (moral, financial, etc) while the fetus is able to be terminated. And I havnt seen a single female in this thread state otherwise. That isn't the issue we are arguing about. We are arguing about whether the male has any right to say what the female should do with her body.

I'm not arguing that. I'm too have stated in this very thread - that father should be free of child support if he doesn't want the child.
You are missing the point.

If fathers MUST pay child support (and right now they must) the simple math shows that they SHOULD have a say about "her body".

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 12:33 PM ----------

How is my argument invalid? You specifically said THIS IS HOW WOMEN VALUE THEIR BODY IN CONTEXT OF CHILD BIRTH.

Do you not remember what you wrote? You did NOT mention "this is how surrogate mothers value their body in context of child birth".

I explained how it is invalid. Non-surrogate mothers do not value their body (in child birth) in money at all. They want to go thru it. They want the baby. The baby is the "payment" for their troubles. But surrogate mothers, who do not want the baby - they charge up to $30000. This is how WOMEN value their body (child birth) in MONEY. Women who want to sell it.
I don't think they value (in non-monetary sense) their body any less than any other woman. Saying otherwise would be demeaning them. When asked to name the price in money - they do so. They convert non-monetary value into monetary value. And it's up to $30000. This is OBJECTIVE price.
I understand that you (for instance) may value your child birthing function for $1000000000000000000000. But who cares? That's is subjective price. I value my child birthing function even more. And I'm a male. So what?
When state determines child support payments amount it doesn't ask father or mother how much they value their child support needs. Right? State looks at the whole picture and sets objective amount. It is only fair to ask MARKET for woman's body price.

[Deleted]

I explained how it is invalid. Non-surrogate mothers do not value their body (in child birth) in money at all. They want to go thru it. They want the baby. The baby is the "payment" for their troubles. But surrogate mothers, who do not want the baby - they charge up to $30000. This is how WOMEN value their body (child birth) in MONEY. Women who want to sell it. I don't think they value (in non-monetary sense) their body any less than any other woman. Saying otherwise would be demeaning them. Then asked to name the price in money - they do so. They convert non-monetary value into monetary value. And it's up to $30000. This is OBJECTIVE price.
I understand that you (for instance) may value your child birthing function for $1000000000000000000000. But who cares? That's is subjective price. I value my child birthing function even more. And I'm a male. So what?
When state determines child support payments amount it doesn't ask father or mother how much they value their child support needs. Right? State looks at the whole picture and sets objective amount. It is only fair to ask MARKET for woman's body price.

Thank you for explaining that, was a misunderstanding on my part then, sorry.

[anisadora]

Why are you attacking my persona? I never mentioned myself in that text.


It is only fair to ask MARKET for woman's body price.

THAT is precisely why you are so incredibly creepy. That this issue boils down to you.... about money? I dont give a crap how much money you want to throw at someone... thats covering up the fact that youre trying to FORCE that person to do something to their body that THEY dont want to do.

I dated a guy, and willingly had sex with him. We had the baby conversation. He told me he WOULD make me have his children. He actually raped me once after one of the baby conversations and I told him that I didnt want a child, saying while he did so that he would make me carry his... But hey, at least in your world, I'd get a little bit of money out of it if he forced me into whelping his rape baby into existence as well.

[LiiLoSNK]

THAT is precisely why you are so incredibly creepy. That this issue boils down to you.... about money? I dont give a crap how much money you want to throw at someone... thats covering up the fact that youre trying to FORCE that person to do something to their body that THEY dont want to do.

I dated a guy, and willingly had sex with him. We had the baby conversation. He told me he WOULD make me have his children. He actually raped me once after one of the baby conversations and I told him that I didnt want a child, saying while he did so that he would make me carry his... But hey, at least in your world, I'd get a little bit of money out of it if he forced me into whelping his rape baby into existence as well.

This explains your views on the subject at hand.

[Deleted]

THAT is precisely why you are so incredibly creepy. That this issue boils down to you.... about money? I dont give a crap how much money you want to throw at someone... thats covering up the fact that youre trying to FORCE that person to do something to their body that THEY dont want to do.

Uh, huh, he's talking about surrogate mothers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_mother

[GuiltyCrown]

Personally believe that the father should have a say in it (as well), he should be able to voice his feelings to the mother about an abortion (after all it really is between both of them), and the mother should take it into consideration too.

However, if I had a wife and were in a situation were I didn't want her to have an abortion but she wanted one. . .then I would have to submit to her choice. In the end it's HER body, I (the father or anyone else for that matter) shouldn't have ANY control over her choice.