Rogue Buffs in 5.2

[Shaderas]

Yep, on my 65% resilience rogue I get a little extra time to react but the majority of the time it's purely delaying the inevitable. If I get hard switched to and don't have a trinket to get out of the stun, I'm smashed into the ground. Same thing happens on my 1day rogue :/ It's not 'oh that was close I almost survived', it's complete overkill.

Ok, I get what you're saying. I agree, damage is a bit too high

[Dcruize]

Kosechi, please try playing a rogue this season.

[kosechi]

Kosechi, please try playing a rogue this season.

dcruize please try playing a ret paladin this season.

[Dcruize]

dcruize please try playing a ret paladin this season.

Hybrid tax.

[Deleted]

I will have to concur that Ferals seem to be pretty ridiculous at the moment (I play one at 90 in addition to my Rogue and Hunter and DK).

Which class were you playing Deleth?

Resto Shaman, currently playing with an Hunter. They pounced me inside flare and I almost immediatly dropped dead, I got healing tide totem out but it didn't matter a damn. It went so fast that the hunter who was fairly close couldn't even got off scatter shot in time to at least get them off me for a second.

Last time something similar happened to me was when a warrior in a battleground with full tfb stacks and berserker swapped onto me at the start of Mists. But to be fair it was two players with ALL their cool downs active who went for me, apparently they figured it was all or nothing as seeing how one of them dropped dead fairly fast once the hunter popped all his cool downs was about right.

Still to me it shows that the damage currently is absolutely insanely high. A competent dps has no problem whatsoever to drop people dead in seconds. I'm a crappy mage and even after the nerfs I can kill most healers in the second deep freeze once they're out of def cd's.

Couple that with insane ammounts of CC and interrupts on a short CD and we have the worst PvP I've experienced in all my time in WoW. (Started late TBC)

It might be that rogues aren't actually overpowered, but that many other dps classes are to damn strong. I at times accidently join a battleground as elemental shaman in my healing pvp gear. And when I pop cool downs + ascendence and get not immediatly CC'd I roast people before they can react.

Not much you can do when most of your hp is gone in a shockwave from some scrubby mongo

It's not just rogue suffering from that though.

[kosechi]

Hybrid tax.

lulz. cute.

if you had pointed out that ret's representation was higher ( mostly due to its ability to synergize with warriors and ferals) and that since warriors currently have better synergy with just about everyone then rogues i might have nodded and agreed with you that rogues need fixes in that department, but since you went straight to hybrid tax, i lost any iota of respect for your opinion i might have had.

i personally think all the rogue players can't stand not being top tier melee for a change and think its the end of the world that they can't kill some one in a cheap shot anymore.

rogues are not the only people who are getting gibbed by warriors right now, and thats a problem with warriors, not with rogues.

[Dcruize]

lulz. cute.

if you had pointed out that ret's representation was higher ( mostly due to its ability to synergize with warriors and ferals) and that since warriors currently have better synergy with just about everyone then rogues i might have nodded and agreed with you that rogues need fixes in that department, but since you went straight to hybrid tax, i lost any iota of respect for your opinion i might have had.

i personally think all the rogue players can't stand not being top tier melee for a change and think its the end of the world that they can't kill some one in a cheap shot anymore.

rogues are not the only people who are getting gibbed by warriors right now, and thats a problem with warriors, not with rogues.

I started to, but deleted it and went for the easy-mode (and as valid) answer. You've been going on about rets in rogue threads for quite a while, there's nothing I can say to you that hasn't been said already. The fact you even know the 'right' answers speaks volumes...

[Deleted]

@Kosechi, and ret can't simply activate wings and nuke something. You guys were at several points just as bad as rogues were during the last patch of Cataclysm. Just that rogues needed two legendary daggers and an absolute insane trinkets to get to where you guys are regulary.

As a neutral party. Rogues are a frustrating class (used to be) to play against because they have (had) loads of CC others class didn't (they do now, that's for certain) have and managed to often get away when another class would've died (they don't now, but some others such as shadow and feral do). Rets on the other hand are nasty, they're not DK or Warrior nasty but still nasty. Yes their self heal get nerfed, but that doesn't mean they're broken or anywhere near as bad as rogues currently are.

[kosechi]

I started to, but deleted it and went for the easy-mode (and as valid) answer. You've been going on about rets in rogue threads for quite a while, there's nothing I can say to you that hasn't been said already. The fact you even know the 'right' answers speaks volumes...

the 'right' answers? you mean saying that the problem is with warriors not with rogues? that answer?
its a lot easier to bring down the outliers then buff everyone else to compensate, i seem to remember saying that exact same thing about rogues last season.

rogues suffer from a lack of synergy currently, this is compounded by the weakness of disc priests effectively putting their strongest comp (RMP) out of commission. the problem is that warriors do everything rogues can do better, and thats a problem with warriors, not with rogues. rets and enhance are mostly propped up by their ability to support warriors.

i go on about rets possibly because i play a ret and i've stuck by this spec through times when it was a lot worse then rogues are currently.

@Kosechi, and ret can't simply activate wings and nuke something. You guys were at several points just as bad as rogues were during the last patch of Cataclysm. Just that rogues needed two legendary daggers and an absolute insane trinkets to get to where you guys are regulary.

are you insane? rets were even more propped up by pve gear then rogues were during S11. rets have had a lot more terrible seasons then rogues have and they've been flat out broken for a lot more seasons then rogues ever have.

[Flaks]

dcruize please try playing a ret paladin this season.

Ret is a spec. Rogue is a class.

That said, ret is PERFECTLY FINE ATM. In fact, they are SO PERFECTLY FINE that they're third best melee behind warriors and ferals right now and even that's not by a huge margin. Any buffs to ret right now would put them way over the top. Which is why instead of ret buffs we're seeing warrior and feral nerfs. And why we're seeing rogue buffs because they ARE the weakest melee right now (weakest class actually) by a massive margin. Rets need to gtfo this argument.

All melee across the board is pretty well off except rogues. Hell, even enhance is having it's day and it is undoubtedly one of the weakest specs in the game consistently. And no, ret hasn't had a single "bad" season since s5. It's been rank 1 viable every single season since then. And no, having 4 bad seasons doesn't give you an excuse to be overpowered for any period of time. Just like having some great seasons doesn't mean you deserve to be left in the dust either.

[Yvaelle]

Ret is a spec. Rogue is a class.

That said, ret is PERFECTLY FINE ATM. In fact, they are SO PERFECTLY FINE that they're third best melee behind warriors and ferals right now and even that's not by a huge margin. Any buffs to ret right now would put them way over the top. Which is why instead of ret buffs we're seeing warrior and feral nerfs. And why we're seeing rogue buffs because they ARE the weakest melee right now (weakest class actually) by a massive margin. Rets need to gtfo this argument.

All melee across the board is pretty well off except rogues. Hell, even enhance is having it's day and it is undoubtedly one of the weakest specs in the game consistently. And no, ret hasn't had a single "bad" season since s5. It's been rank 1 viable every single season since then. And no, having 4 bad seasons doesn't give you an excuse to be overpowered for any period of time. Just like having some great seasons doesn't mean you deserve to be left in the dust either.

^ This. I was going to have to post pretty much the same thing, but Flaks covered it - deserves to be repeated though.

Nope.
http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/ <- Class in general of top 250 team in each battle group.
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html <- Each spec over 2200+
Both of their are up to date.
Every time I checked less Monk than rogue.
Interestingly WW + MW = 1.2% where ASS alone is 1.1% and Sub with 2.1%, completely the reverse.
There is more Sub rogue than all monk specs.

Hmm, good to know. In my defense, the last time I was really looking at rogue representation was just before 5.1 when rogues were at their worst (at which time, what I was saying was true). That was when the last great State of Rogues threads were active on here. Before 5.1 all rogue specs combined were present on less than 1% of 2200+ rated arena teams (and there was no clearly best spec, all spec representation was roughly equally terrible).

The 5.1 changes to vanish and blind particularly clearly had a big impact - the rogues in my guild actually expected them to have an even bigger impact than they did, but I didn't agree - though maybe rogue rep is still on the rise and the full impact still isn't visible. In any case, I don't think the risk of 3% rogue rep suddenly surpassing the 15% warrior rep we still see, or the ~5.9% representation that would indicate balance if all generally accepted Arena-Capable DPS specs were equally competitive (so excluding tanks and healers, 100 (percent) / 17 (specs) = ~5.9%.

The risk of rogues becoming markedly over-represented shouldn't be a concern.

[Linneth]

^ This. I was going to have to post pretty much the same thing, but Flaks covered it - deserves to be repeated though.




Hmm, good to know. In my defense, the last time I was really looking at rogue representation was just before 5.1 when rogues were at their worst (at which time, what I was saying was true). That was when the last great State of Rogues threads were active on here. Before 5.1 all rogue specs combined were present on less than 1% of 2200+ rated arena teams (and there was no clearly best spec, all spec representation was roughly equally terrible).

The 5.1 changes to vanish and blind particularly clearly had a big impact - the rogues in my guild actually expected them to have an even bigger impact than they did, but I didn't agree - though maybe rogue rep is still on the rise and the full impact still isn't visible. In any case, I don't think the risk of 3% rogue rep suddenly surpassing the 15% warrior rep we still see, or the ~5.9% representation that would indicate balance if all generally accepted Arena-Capable DPS specs were equally competitive (so excluding tanks and healers, 100 (percent) / 17 (specs) = ~5.9%.

The risk of rogues becoming markedly over-represented shouldn't be a concern.

While it doesn't change the fact that Monks are even worse than Rogues, bear in mind that the link to worldofgraphs posted by Exorte is taking into account all brackets (this means that they're using data from arenas AND from RBG). Even if Rogues were unable to use anything other than Smoke Bomb on RBGs they would still be taken because of how massively overpowered that ability alone is if used correctly.

If we look at 3v3 arenas, we have that rogues have 1.5% representation (Sub 1.3%, Assa 0.2%, Combat 0%). Looking at 5v5, we have that rogues have 1.1% representation (Sub 0.7%, assa 0.3%, Combat 0.1%).

The only Brackets were Rogues have a "healthy?" representation are 2v2 (Sub 2% with double Shadow, Combat 0.7% with Killing Spree, Assa gets shafted because of its lack of powerful CDs) and RBGs (Smokebomb).

[Yvaelle]

While it doesn't change the fact that Monks are even worse than Rogues, bear in mind that the link to worldofgraphs posted by Exorte is taking into account all brackets (this means that they're using data from arenas AND from RBG). Even if Rogues were unable to use anything other than Smoke Bomb on RBGs they would still be taken because of how massively overpowered that ability alone is if used correctly.

If we look at 3v3 arenas, we have that rogues have 1.5% representation (Sub 1.3%, Assa 0.2%, Combat 0%). Looking at 5v5, we have that rogues have 1.1% representation (Sub 0.7%, assa 0.3%, Combat 0.1%).

The only Brackets were Rogues have a "healthy?" representation are 2v2 (Sub 2% with double Shadow, Combat 0.7% with Killing Spree, Assa gets shafted because of its lack of powerful CDs) and RBGs (Smokebomb).

Monks have a very good excuse to be low rep right now though. This is season 1 for them - not even Season 1 - all monks started this season at level 1. I have 11 level 85's, and 4 level 90's - at least one of each class, all on the same server (two accounts). It's safe to say I play this game way too much - but my monk is still only level 11.

The only way to even have a monk main is if you quit your old main, ignored all the neat buffs your alts were getting in 5.0, and took a huge gamble on a new class that nobody Truly knew enough about: maybe mistweavers were going to be the best healers ever (in pve this turned out to be true at first), maybe windwalker survivability and burst was going to be way too high in arenas - or maybe not. Nobody likes uncertainty like that, so only a very small percentage of people would be actually willing to take that kind of a risk over playing the main they were already invested in, or being drawn to an alt they loved the look of in 5.0: it takes a lot to make someone give up everything they have for something they may or may not get.

For example, my spriests team is healed by a Mistweaver - and she does Amazing at it - but she didn't go Mistweaver for pvp, she did it because her PvE guild wanted a Mistweaver for better raid synergy (token and armor type balance), and because she knew Disc was going to be fucked this season (and her priest was still her second toon to 90, days after her MW - which she instantly had at 80 from RAF). Short of stories like that, people had to level from 1-90, which puts them behind on gear, which makes them less desirable to the top teams - who aren't confident what a Monk can bring to the team, and aren't interested in taking someone a couple weeks behind on gear (healers especcially).

The result is that the entire Monk population is low right now, and of that the PvP-interested Monk population is lower still, and of that the PvP-interested Monk population who picked up their class fast enough, and learned their new teams synergy fast enough, and played from a gear disadvantage, and were still 2200+ capable - is a Really low percentage of the WoW population. Monks really aren't a bad class, the 5.2 buffs are going to be... interesting... they could become overpowered honestly (but would still be under-represented). Good news for me though!

Edit: Oh! And by contrast, Rogues were one of the highest populated 2200+ classes last season, the Rogue population is (if not massive) entrenched, they love their class, they have been rogues for years / expansions, they know their class very well, and they already have level 85 rogues in BiS gear when the expansion launched. The population of level 90 rogues who are 2200+ capable (or were last season) is very high, the population of 2200+ capable level 90 rogues who are actually 2200+ right now - is effectively non-existent.

The same happened for DKs in s5. Of the top 100 2's teams in the world, literally like all 100 of them were Unholy / Holy - DKs in s5 were the most broken spec ever in the game. But, despite all that, not a lot of people had actually rerolled their mains to DK - what was even more shocking that the total DK dominance of every Arena bracket, was that the DK population was still just a fraction of other classes global representation - but every DK who so much as queued for an arena was 2200+ in an afternoon, and every DK who had happened to have been 2200+ capable on a different toon ever, who used Skype, who wasn't carrying their girlfriend - went Gladiator by virtue of the class. DK's also had the advantage back that they started at 55 (really at 58, because the starting area is a joke), the max level was 80, and they were capable of soloing 5 man dungeons for crazy fast leveling - monks have to do the whole 1-90 thing - triple the levels without the crazy broken damage/self-healing/survivability, and when they get there - they are at best at 90 balanced or underpowered, they don't get 2200 by virtue of queueing up.

Long essay short: Rogues are under-represented for every different reasons than Monks, who are at a disadvantage that no other class has ever been in before. Sorry about the essays

[kosechi]

Ret is a spec. Rogue is a class.

That said, ret is PERFECTLY FINE ATM. In fact, they are SO PERFECTLY FINE that they're third best melee behind warriors and ferals right now and even that's not by a huge margin. Any buffs to ret right now would put them way over the top. Which is why instead of ret buffs we're seeing warrior and feral nerfs. And why we're seeing rogue buffs because they ARE the weakest melee right now (weakest class actually) by a massive margin. Rets need to gtfo this argument.

All melee across the board is pretty well off except rogues. Hell, even enhance is having it's day and it is undoubtedly one of the weakest specs in the game consistently. And no, ret hasn't had a single "bad" season since s5. It's been rank 1 viable every single season since then. And no, having 4 bad seasons doesn't give you an excuse to be overpowered for any period of time. Just like having some great seasons doesn't mean you deserve to be left in the dust either.

class vs spec is irrelevant. damage dealing melee vs damage dealing melee is relevant. ret is NOT strong right now. its only above rogues and monks due to its synergy, it isn't as good as enhance and its no where close to warriors or ferals.

rogues are mechanically fine, they are suffering because disc priests are crap which basically puts RMP out of commission, they are suffering because warriors are vastly overtuned and can pretty much replace them in any comp. rogues got so spoiled by being able to randomly kill people in stuns in cata that they think that thats how they've always played, and thats just not true, rogues who know how to control and how to set up offensive windows for their team are just as effective as they ever were.

did you not play ret in s9? i did. i had the misfortune of not starting the 2.2k grind until after the word of glory nerf went through. it was painful, ret was barely functional, in pve and in pvp, and that nerf had turned it into a blow everything and pray something dies kind of spec which is a really miserable place to be. it was mid tier for most of wolk, and almost flat out non functional for all of bc. rogues have been top tier for pretty much every season. so you've finally hit a season where you might have to display an iota of skill to play a rogue? cry me a river.

[Deleted]

The reason beacuse rogues are underrepresented is not damage. The class is boring as hell and blizzard invoking abillties with multiple effects such ss Hit'n Run is a great way towards the right direction. Im not saying Hit'n Run will be super useful but its an appealing and cool abillity.

[Linneth]

class vs spec is irrelevant. damage dealing melee vs damage dealing melee is relevant. ret is NOT strong right now. its only above rogues and monks due to its synergy, it isn't as good as enhance and its no where close to warriors or ferals.

rogues are mechanically fine, they are suffering because disc priests are crap which basically puts RMP out of commission, they are suffering because warriors are vastly overtuned and can pretty much replace them in any comp. rogues got so spoiled by being able to randomly kill people in stuns in cata that they think that thats how they've always played, and thats just not true, rogues who know how to control and how to set up offensive windows for their team are just as effective as they ever were.

did you not play ret in s9? i did. i had the misfortune of not starting the 2.2k grind until after the word of glory nerf went through. it was painful, ret was barely functional, in pve and in pvp, and that nerf had turned it into a blow everything and pray something dies kind of spec which is a really miserable place to be. it was mid tier for most of wolk, and almost flat out non functional for all of bc. rogues have been top tier for pretty much every season. so you've finally hit a season where you might have to display an iota of skill to play a rogue? cry me a river.

You say Class vs Spec is irrelevant, then you say Rogues have been top tier pretty much every season. Combat Rogues have been crap since Warglaives; Assassination Rogues have been mostly crap since inception. As you said, cry me a river.

[Viradiance]

dcruize please try playing a ret paladin this season.

Good thing you can do holy.

Now try playing a healer rogue.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 05:24 PM ----------

Combat Rogues have been crap since Warglaives

100% arpen Killing Spree.

[ArtemasAD]

Maybe I might go back to level and play my rogue again!

[Linneth]

100% arpen Killing Spree.

I see... Only Shadowmournes... Before me... *dies*

[kosechi]

You say Class vs Spec is irrelevant, then you say Rogues have been top tier pretty much every season. Combat Rogues have been crap since Warglaives; Assassination Rogues have been mostly crap since inception. As you said, cry me a river.

mut rogues actually had quite a few good seasons

Good thing you can do holy.

what is this holy? i don't know. i don't play it. i play ret. being a hybrid doesn't make paladin any less deserving of a viable dps spec.