Rogue's not popular because they can't Stunlock/insta kill people.

[ringpriest]

Rogues weren't insta-gibbing in pvp during Cata, and their class representation was up. That probably had something to do with the availability of the rogue-specific Legendary daggers, but on the whole the class was in a decent place. Then came patch 5.0 and MoP. GC and the devs were told, again and again, on the forums and in feedback on the PTR that the changes they were making to the class were foolish and that rogues were going to be hurting. Non-positive feedback was ignored or punished, as it has been pretty consistently since GC came on board. Fast forward over half a year and now he's claiming "peeps don't play rogues 'cause they can't insta-kill". He's too blindly self-centered and egotistical to consider that maybe people stopped playing rogues because he trashed the class with 5.0 changes, just like he was repeatedly told would happen.

My pet theory is wow pop started to drop as soon as GC -> decent game became less likely.

Mod edit: removed the bad parts.

[javen]

His theory doesn't really make much sense.

So then, what DID happen to everyone who used to play a rogue because of the insta-kill stunlock? They quit? Switched to other classes that also didn't have control? And people choosing not to play their rogues anymore is also a small part of their representation, it's also people choosing not to create or level or use rogues for progress. Blaming a classes declining population in 2013 on the pvp environment of 2005 seems like arguing in bad faith.

[D3athsting]

Rogues weren't insta-gibbing in pvp during Cata, and their class representation was up. That probably had something to do with the availability of the rogue-specific Legendary daggers, but on the whole the class was in a decent place. Then came patch 5.0 and MoP. GC and the devs were told, again and again, on the forums and in feedback on the PTR that the changes they were making to the class were foolish and that rogues were going to be hurting. Non-positive feedback was ignored or punished, as it has been pretty consistently since GC came on board. Fast forward over half a year and now he's claiming "peeps don't play rogues 'cause they can't insta-kill". He's too blindly self-centered and egotistical to consider that maybe people stopped playing rogues because he trashed the class with 5.0 changes, just like he was repeatedly told would happen.

My pet theory is wow pop started to drop as soon as GC -> decent game became less likely.

This
My pet theory is that blizz's top devs who worked and released vanilla and tbc are now working on titan and they put c*ap devs like GC to work on wow.

Also i'm a pve player and i don't like rogue not because i can't insta-kill ppl, i don't like rogue coz i feel deadweight in raids and i see hybrids having much more utility than me and i feel my class' gameplay outdated and boring...


Mod edit: removed the bad parts.

[Deleted]

Rogues weren't insta-gibbing in pvp during Cata, and their class representation was up. That probably had something to do with the availability of the rogue-specific Legendary daggers, but on the whole the class was in a decent place. Then came patch 5.0 and MoP. GC and the devs were told, again and again, on the forums and in feedback on the PTR that the changes they were making to the class were foolish and that rogues were going to be hurting. Non-positive feedback was ignored or punished, as it has been pretty consistently since GC came on board. Fast forward over half a year and now he's claiming "peeps don't play rogues 'cause they can't insta-kill". He's too blindly self-centered and egotistical to consider that maybe people stopped playing rogues because he trashed the class with 5.0 changes, just like he was repeatedly told would happen.

My pet theory is wow pop started to drop as soon as GC -> decent game became less likely.

Nope, rogue were still the least represented class in cata on par with warlocks, they had a brief moment of popularity with 4.3 and the legendary daggers, but nothing too major.

So yeah, it's not a MoP thing, get over it, no need to insult anyone

Mod edit: removed the bad parts.

[D3athsting]

Nope, rogue were still the least represented class in cata on par with warlocks, they had a brief moment of popularity with 4.3 and the legendary daggers, but nothing too major.
So yeah, it's not a MoP thing, get over it, no need to insult anyone

GC already worked for blizz for wotlk and cata, now with mop he finally reached his final goal: destroying rogue class.

[Deleted]

GC already worked for blizz for wotlk and cata, now with mop he finally reached his final goal: destroying rogue class.

Yeah, ok, i guess trying to discuss with those arguments is pointless, you are right, Gc is the devil himself, cometh to destroy the rogue class once and for all.
Move along

[D3athsting]

This is what happens when almost all classes can stun, snare, interrupt and cc and do same dmg as rogues, what got rogues in exchange for all of their signature abilities gifted to other classes? Smoke bomb? Shroud of concealement? Shadow walk? LOL

[Strakha]

Rogue will be FOTM by the end of the expansion, it's a class that is built around the desire to make people miserable, maybe there are just less miserable people in WoW now, or maybe they have a harder job of making others miserable, therefore it is less attractive of a class now.

It's the only class in the game you can remove and the game basically does not change at all. There is no reason to ever have a rogue in PVE and barely one now in PVP. Give another class smoke bomb and call it a day.

[glowpipe]

Rogues are a dead class due to lack of new shizzle.

Look at the rogue class. Its just the same class as back in vanilla.

All the new skills is just basicly the same we always had. With a new name.

Mutilate is the same sinister strike. Dispatch is the same as backstab. Envenom is the same as eviscerate.

The class is just way to boring to play now. They need a complete rework. Make them more fluid and complex. brand new skills. Add some more ranged/charge and shit in there. Something has to be done and fast

[Coldkil]

Just a warning, don't do any other rant post - or just make it without swearing words, random offenses or personal attacks. They aren't needed, and your points are clear enough without them.

[Deleted]

I agree with most of the points, but rogue damage has always been mostly passive, it's not like it's a mop thing, do you remember vanilla? Cause i do and it was even worse

yeah I remember vanilla.

2k ambush, 2k backstab, 4 second wait while 100-200 white hits, 2k backstab, 4 second wait..... that's passive in your book? oO


@ Damax in T14 heroic content melees are actually better than ranges and most 10m raids go with 3 melees.

[Deleted]

If you look at it from the point of view of a new player, you'd pick a rogue for the classic reasons you pick any roguey type character. Which is indeed, exactly what GC says it is.

After you level your new rogue a bit you quickly find that you can't kill shit from stealth (and due to rogues remembered legacy as soon as you are seen in pvp you are focused down). If you arena, stealth is straight up pointless as the major element stealth brings (surprise) has gone because in arena stealth has no surprise value to it. So erm, what's the point of it all then?

Everyone else has what you have, and the one thing you are supposed to do, the defining class ability (fucking people up from stealth and then getting away) isn't actually available. It'd be like playing mage only to find warriors have frostbolts, DK have fireballs and all you are allowed to do is auto attack with wand and hurt stuff a bit. And while that wand damage might be very high, it's not what you thought you were getting when picked the class.

Rogues are great, but they aren't actually the classic archetype one thinks of when the leather wearing, backstabbing dagger guy from the shadows any more. We all know why - other players don't find being two shotted from nowhere much fun.* The question is what can rogues become is they aren't allowed to be their archetype? Something better than an auto attack semi robot whose only input is being put close enough to the boss to land very many tiny melee hits, hopefully. What that might be, lord knows.





*Conspiracy time. Rogues suck at launch every time so that people can level unmolested. Can you imagine what mop launch would be like if rogues who could ambush clothies for 75% of hp and backstab for 50% hp were still in the game? Fields of skeletons and forums full of tears.

[Nudle]

Yesterday I was doing arenas, and saw a rogue passing me, sapping me, I sat through it for 6 seconds, still being able to see the rogue dashing for my mate, berserk raged out of it, charged him from 15 yards...warbringer stun, then a fear to force his trinket, then shockwave + swifty macro and he died without even getting a heal from his priest.

tl: dr > stealth is worthless, damage is .... avoidable if played well, rogues are made of paper, they die in a stun. Of course rogues are not represented, since rogues were vanilla's most feared 1v1 duel. Since the game is balanced on 3s 5s and rbgs, and most of the ppl don`t play those , only 2s and un rated bgs, the rogue pop dropped.

[Ssith]

This is what happens when a glass cannon becomes a glass knife

not only a glass knife, but one with a single ability.

the weakness of the class' design for PVP - attrition to win, no big BAM, but a lot of poison and bleed DoTs on top of relatively weak but fast melee swings - coupled with the undesirability of melee in raiding due to the inability to stack where needed, among other things, is a death blow. top it off with "we can't do any other role, but are STILL in the middle of the DPS pack" and you're burying the class.

[Deleted]

Rogue will be FOTM by the end of the expansion, it's a class that is built around the desire to make people miserable, maybe there are just less miserable people in WoW now, or maybe they have a harder job of making others miserable, therefore it is less attractive of a class now.

It's a class designed around stealth and opportunity, not making others miserable. And the FOTM-bullshit probably won't hold this time around, seeing as they stripped us of our crit talents (for one).

5.2 won't change much either. Though it does amuse me seeing warriors all over, crying, saying they'll be the worst melee.
Sorry, that spot's still mine.

[Cirque]

I too found this a most condescending remark.

It's not entirely true what OP claims though, rogues have had a very long history of being the typical gankers and being extremely succesful at it. I won't say stun->kill was always the result, but it was close to it. However, this has not been the case since.. since forever. I can't exactly recall, but since a long time. Rogue population has always been low, and in my opinion that's because of the way they play. In PvP, they're very fun but have quite a rough learning curve/skillcap, and in PvE their 'rotation' has always been extremely sober (complicated to max does not equal interesting, inb4 someone refers to cata sub). Especially in today's WoW, where practically every class, dare I say every class has engaging PvE dps mechanics, rogues are still stuck staring at their energy bar in a rotational system that has barely changed since vanilla.

That the blue would say the following two statements:

how many patches will the devs ask and wonder why rogues pop isnt high enough when we have been telling you for months energy
Not a recent phenomenon. My pet theory is rogue pop started to drop as soon as gank -> guaranteed kill became less likely.

regen is TOO low, therefor the class is SLOW and UNFUN, want to bring your rogue players back up? Increase the sodding regen!
Our vision for rogues is not to have enough energy to fill every GCD. That makes energy not a thing.

(source: mmo front page)

to me shows, for the first time that I'm going to say this, that the devs have absolutely no idea what to do about rogues. There's little fun about today's rogue energy, which is IMO negated in PvP because, well, you're going to be kited, you're going to use your tools, you're going to worry about a LOT more than energy (making rogue my favourite pvp character) - as opposed to PvE, where maximizing your output is pretty much your sole focus. As a result rogue dps feels like I'm better off alttabbing. PvE being boring, and PvP requiring way more skill than a lot of other classes to achieve the same results (especially in our current state) will naturally lead to a further decline in rogue population.

Rogues should have had a revamp ages ago, and we can only hope devs will finally take a look at it for next expansion (seeing as they're, as always, too conservatist to change anything mid-expansion).

[Deleted]

I have only recently levelled rogue, my main being a DK and I found that the lack of burst, and survivability when no CD's available was so painful. When I levelled my DK pulling multiple mobs was so efficient, overall it made the process faster because cleave was so good. While rogue cleave might be good, you die trying it.

[D3athsting]

I have only recently levelled rogue, my main being a DK and I found that the lack of burst, and survivability when no CD's available was so painful. When I levelled my DK pulling multiple mobs was so efficient, overall it made the process faster because cleave was so good. While rogue cleave might be good, you die trying it.

Rogue is going to lose best 2 target cleave in game come 5.2, assassination aoe is only good on sustained dmg and with many targets and has no burst, subtlety aoe is laughable (crimson tempest is incredibly weak if u don't stack mastery), combat will be decent on 4-8 targets, still cr*ap with more of them, as for survivability i swore many at my rogue while getting crushed by 2-3 mantids at lv88+

[Justikhar]

I do play a Rogue and to some degree he's right. I'm not that much of a PvPer but eventually I liked to wander out in the open world and gank some people. Now, when I see a Warrior, I won't even engage him but instead walk around him with a large arch hoping he does not notice me.

I suspect they have tried in their own way to 'fix the class', but it has some fundamental issues that are simply a result of when it was made, being a DPS only melee, and game improvements and class additions over time making it less favorable. I should hope there was some sarcasm to GC's post, or preceeding posts that provide context because the first thing to realize out of that statement is rogues (nor any other class) shouldn't be designed in such a manner that leaves them a a 'PVP first' option.

From WoW Forums:

While the specific changes are arguable, a fairly large consensus can possibly be reached that the class simply needs more flavor. Looking at all of the other melee options, and in particular if you factor in dual-spec, the only pure melee DPS class is the poorest choice from both a style & presentation standpoint, as well as from a utility and functionality standpoint.

The other melee can do more by sheer nature of dual spec if nothing else, but also in terms of having unique abilities & buffs, as well as in many cases doing some of the signature rogue things better. What is a rogue? Stealth, dual wield, melee, combo points w/ finishers. One could easily argue paladin's combo system is better, druid's stealth is just as good, Warrior's and DK's dual-wield weapons and animations are better, and all other options have signature moves that are fun and entertaining to the observer as well. There are enough of them to take your pick, even if you don't like several (Wiings, AotD, DnD, Titan Grip, Monk Cyclone Kick, Xuen, Bloodlust, Lay on Hands, .

Put that aside, and let us look at part of the main limitation - a pure DPS class. How does the rogue stand up to others in this regard? Well, the mage and warlock have VERY distinguishable specs (pets anyone?), and signature/unique abilities that are in some cases spec specific (frost mage, Illidan clone warlock, portals, teleports, mage food, summon tv, healthstone). They are spell-casters, so that inherently allows them to be 'flashier' with animations, but that didn't hold back the death knight when it was created. Hunters I personally feel are in between. They obviously have pets and are ranged, once again allowing for more flash, but I think for purposes of spec distinguishing .... one spec probably needs to be non-pet, or very diminished in pet use (like only shows up for a cooldown or something). Probably survival spec. Could use dagers and axes and throw them or something too, but I digress.

Point is, and what I sense the OP was getting at if you strip out the specific changes, the class is simply out-done since basically the end of TBC. Improvements to the game system, other classes and talent systems, as well as the addition of 2 new melee classes ... have left both the mechanics and the presentation of the rogue far behind.

I do give Blizzard credit for obviously realizing this and going through with the legendary daggers of Cata. I mean a legendary that is for just one class, that can fit only one role, and has voiced/animated questline? You know they were throwing us a bone there, but legendary weapons are still only good for one tier ... no matter how cool the item or the quest line. Thus leaving the fundamental issues of the class still there. With 4 role druids, titan grip warriors, spell animated dual wield dks, bloodlusting shaman, and newly added monks ..... it is hard to see a competitive advantage (so to speak) for the less animated, less utilitarian, pure melee dps class in the game w/ minimal spec differentiation (changing Evis to Envenom, Mut to Sinister Strike, etc .... not very compelling)

[Carp The Fish]

Rogue is going to lose best 2 target cleave in game come 5.2, assassination aoe is only good on sustained dmg and with many targets and has no burst, subtlety aoe is laughable (crimson tempest is incredibly weak if u don't stack mastery), combat will be decent on 4-8 targets, still cr*ap with more of them, as for survivability i swore many at my rogue while getting crushed by 2-3 mantids at lv88+

1. Good thing there's only one 2-cleave fight in Throne of Thunder.
2. 3-5 target Combat is going to kick the shit out of any 2-cleave.
3. "Survivability" does not account for being smacked in the face by ANYTHING (when you're not using Evasion (and Evasion isn't a guarantee you're not going to get smacked))

Back on topic, the problem with Rogue population has NOTHING to do with whether or not they're able to one-stun gank people. It has to do with unappealing gameplay mechanics (repetitive action generating the same or worse results is not good design) and no clear spec distinction beyond "Main damage comes from ____ source of damage".