Normal BiS Best in Slot Disc PVE 25M

[Nekked]

Tried looking for one but couldn't find it. Was there a normal T15 BiS Best in Slot list for disc atonement?

[Deleted]

BiS lists are nice in theory for calculating maximum possible throughput across class and spec boundaries, but they shouldn't be used as a goal. especially healers shouldn't do so, because everyone prefers different spirit amounts, which could change item rankings. similarly, going for mastery or crit will also affect your rankings. the large amount of possible items in ToT (3-4 per slot, or about 129 million different combinations just for items, 530K if you take 4P) also means that there are a lot of different combinations possible.

In short: don't worry about BiS gear as a goal. just take whatever's available to you, only bother with calculating optimal sets for trinkets and slots for which you have more than 1 item.

[Deleted]

Pretty much what he said^

If you still want a BiS list for atonement you could take a look at this: http://chardev.org/profile/50840-BiS_disccrit.html (ignoring thunderforged apart from the rings, ignoring item upgrades and the wrist enchant is supposed to be crit).

I'd imagine that this would be ideal for most fights in 10 man, for most fights in 25 and some in 10 I'd use significantly more spirit.

[Nekked]

BiS lists are nice in theory for calculating maximum possible throughput across class and spec boundaries, but they shouldn't be used as a goal. especially healers shouldn't do so, because everyone prefers different spirit amounts, which could change item rankings. similarly, going for mastery or crit will also affect your rankings. the large amount of possible items in ToT (3-4 per slot, or about 129 million different combinations just for items, 530K if you take 4P) also means that there are a lot of different combinations possible.

In short: don't worry about BiS gear as a goal. just take whatever's available to you, only bother with calculating optimal sets for trinkets and slots for which you have more than 1 item.

Thanks. I was assuming this is true for healing gear. Just wanted to know what our best OS piece is assuming we want the normal 4 set bonus.

Pretty much what he said^

If you still want a BiS list for atonement you could take a look at this: http://chardev.org/profile/50840-BiS_disccrit.html (ignoring thunderforged apart from the rings, ignoring item upgrades and the wrist enchant is supposed to be crit).

I'd imagine that this would be ideal for most fights in 10 man, for most fights in 25 and some in 10 I'd use significantly more spirit.

Thanks. I was debating on whether the gloves from Primordius or Lei Shen was better, since this is the piece where the OS has an extra socket.


I am still a bit unsure of what our actual stat priority is.

I've been looking over some very geared disc priests in a 25m raid environment and they seem to be gemming either crit + spirit, pure spirit, or int + spirit, even though he is already sitting at a whopping 16k spirit.

[Nestar]

I am still a bit unsure of what our actual stat priority is.

I've been looking over some very geared disc priests in a 25m raid environment and they seem to be gemming either crit + spirit, pure spirit, or int + spirit, even though he is already sitting at a whopping 16k spirit.

At this point the generally accepted priority is

Spirit till comfortable > Crit > Mastery > Haste

Most 10 Man Discs I've seen are stopping on spirit around the 11-13k mark. 25's seem to go a bit higher, will depend on if you are reliably able to proc Rapture as well, (running with another disc can greatly affect this). For myself I'm comfortable in the 13k mark with a flask on most sub 8 Minute fights. Although to be honest I don't heal that often, usually running shadow.

[Nekked]

At this point the generally accepted priority is

Spirit till comfortable > Crit > Mastery > Haste

Most 10 Man Discs I've seen are stopping on spirit around the 11-13k mark. 25's seem to go a bit higher, will depend on if you are reliably able to proc Rapture as well, (running with another disc can greatly affect this). For myself I'm comfortable in the 13k mark with a flask on most sub 8 Minute fights. Although to be honest I don't heal that often, usually running shadow.

That seems to be the general consensus. How about gemming? Do we go straight int for red sockets or always use crit / spirit hybrid?

[Nestar]

Personally I'll either use Int Spirit or Int Crit gems in red sockets, depending on how much spirit I can give up.
Depends on the socket bonus as well obviously, if its something like 60 haste on the socket, I may just ignore it all together.

[Spotnick]

You never go full int, the purple gems are better (80 int + 160 spirit)

So

Blue: Sparkling
Red: Purified
Yellow: Misty

[Kalmah]

You never go full int, the purple gems are better

That's your opinion. I personnally feel comfortable with 11k spirit, so my gemming is int focused (int, int/spi and int/crit). I've seen disc priest gem int and reforge down to 9k spirit even.

[Nekked]

That's your opinion. I personnally feel comfortable with 11k spirit, so my gemming is int focused (int, int/spi and int/crit). I've seen disc priest gem int and reforge down to 9k spirit even.

I can never heal comfortably with less than 11k mana. I'm sitting at 12k spirit in my 25s and its still not enough. There seems to be information on the forum that haste to 3200 is preferred for some discs for atonement healing?

[Deleted]

I can never heal comfortably with less than 11k mana. I'm sitting at 12k spirit in my 25s and its still not enough. There seems to be information on the forum that haste to 3200 is preferred for some discs for atonement healing?

For 25 man I'd agree, for 10 8-9k can be perfectly fine for some fights. Regarding 3200 haste it doesn't really achive anything for disc that's worthwhile to aim for (in my opinion), so I'd keep crit and mastery above that.

[TirielWoW]

At this point the generally accepted priority is

Spirit till comfortable > Crit > Mastery > Haste

Which is kind of silly. You can pull similar numbers regardless of your reforging priorities.

High Crit, lower Mastery, miniscule Haste is fine. High Haste, lower Mastery, miniscule Crit is fine. High Haste, High Mastery, miniscule crit is fine. High Haste, High Crit, miniscule Mastery is fine. High Mastery, high Crit, miniscule Haste is fine. etc.

It depends on your playstyle, the demands of your raid, and the encounter itself.

Most 10 Man Discs I've seen are stopping on spirit around the 11-13k mark. 25's seem to go a bit higher, will depend on if you are reliably able to proc Rapture as well, (running with another disc can greatly affect this). For myself I'm comfortable in the 13k mark with a flask on most sub 8 Minute fights. Although to be honest I don't heal that often, usually running shadow.

I've hovered around 15k raid buffed for a while. As I get more gear, I'm scaling back on the Spirit on my gems.

That's your opinion. I personnally feel comfortable with 11k spirit, so my gemming is int focused (int, int/spi and int/crit). I've seen disc priest gem int and reforge down to 9k spirit even.

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. Secondary Stats get double the budget on gems. So it's more productive to pick up your secondary stats in your gems to give you room to reforge on the gear itself. It has nothing to do with Spirit, and everything to do with secondary stats in general. Int/Mastery or Int/Haste is more productive than gemming straight Int.

My personal priority is:

Red: Purified, Artful or Reckless
Yellow: Artful or Reckless
Blue: Sparkling (low gear levels and JC gems), Zen, or Energized.

It just depends on which stat priority you choose that fits your raid environment.

[Deleted]

Which is kind of silly. You can pull similar numbers regardless of your reforging priorities.

High Crit, lower Mastery, miniscule Haste is fine. High Haste, lower Mastery, miniscule Crit is fine. High Haste, High Mastery, miniscule crit is fine. High Haste, High Crit, miniscule Mastery is fine. High Mastery, high Crit, miniscule Haste is fine. etc.

If fine means that you can clear the content with it (by that standard being naked or not using more than 3 buttons would be "fine" as well), sure, and the difference isn't huge . If fine means optimal, hell no. I don't really see why you'd aim for a playstyle that is suboptimal when playing optimally doesn't take more effort.

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. Secondary Stats get double the budget on gems. So it's more productive to pick up your secondary stats in your gems to give you room to reforge on the gear itself. It has nothing to do with Spirit, and everything to do with secondary stats in general. Int/Mastery or Int/Haste is more productive than gemming straight Int.

Since you can't reforge into int that's completely irrelevant. 1 int is roughly equal to 2 crit or mastery once you reach a sufficent gear level (and ahead before that) and if you favor the way int adds healing/it adds more for your gear it definitely makes way more sense to gem straight int.

My personal priority is:

Red: Purified, Artful or Reckless
Yellow: Artful or Reckless
Blue: Sparkling (low gear levels and JC gems), Zen, or Energized.

If you value 2 mastery/haste over 1 int why aren't you gemming it straight in your yellow slots? Oh yeah, because you have absolutely no clue about your stat weights and just throw in some random gems that you "feel" are good.

It just depends on which stat priority you choose that fits your raid environment.

It depends on your playstyle, the demands of your raid, and the encounter itself.

=Just do what you "feel" is right, no basis is required. Or can you tell me the playstyles/demands/encounters where you want to stack haste over crit and vice versa (excluding retarded playstyles that don't use their cds)? Thinking that two playstyles/gearing choices would be so incredibly close that they are completely even in a game like wow is complete madness, the "challenge" is to determine which is superior, not that one is (that much is obvious).

[Kalmah]

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. Secondary Stats get double the budget on gems. So it's more productive to pick up your secondary stats in your gems to give you room to reforge on the gear itself. It has nothing to do with Spirit, and everything to do with secondary stats in general. Int/Mastery or Int/Haste is more productive than gemming straight Int.

My personal priority is:

Red: Purified, Artful or Reckless
Yellow: Artful or Reckless
Blue: Sparkling (low gear levels and JC gems), Zen, or Energized.

It just depends on which stat priority you choose that fits your raid environment.

Either you believe that 1 int > 2 mastery (or crit or haste, whatever) and gem 160int in reds, 80 int/160mastery in yellows, or you believe that 2 mastery > 1 int and gem 80int/160mastery in reds and 320 mastery in yellows.

Your gemming choices suggest that you have no clue or don't care.

[TirielWoW]

If fine means that you can clear the content with it (by that standard being naked or not using more than 3 buttons would be "fine" as well), sure, and the difference isn't huge . If fine means optimal, hell no. I don't really see why you'd aim for a playstyle that is suboptimal when playing optimally doesn't take more effort.

I said "fine" because not every raid group is the same. It simply isn't possible to play the "optimal on paper" model in every group. If you're in a fantastic group, with fantastic players who never fuck up, doing bosses the way they were meant to be done, then great - go with the "optimal on paper" model and you will shine!

But if you're in a group where things are a little wonky, and maybe not everyone is on the same level, and maybe you have to baby the tank a bit, or baby a DPS a bit, or maybe your co-healer(s) isn't quite on the same level as you are, or maybe your strat calls for you to do different things, the "optimal on paper" model may not work for you. Which is why there is wiggle room.

Since you can't reforge into int that's completely irrelevant. 1 int is roughly equal to 2 crit or mastery once you reach a sufficent gear level (and ahead before that) and if you favor the way int adds healing/it adds more for your gear it definitely makes way more sense to gem straight int.

Not in my experience.

If you value 2 mastery/haste over 1 int why aren't you gemming it straight in your yellow slots? Oh yeah, because you have absolutely no clue about your stat weights and just throw in some random gems that you "feel" are good.

I'm so happy you're sitting in my head knowing my reasons for the gems I choose. It's so good to know I have someone from the internet there to tell me I'm a fuckwit who doesn't know anything based on a single post on the internet!

=Just do what you "feel" is right, no basis is required. Or can you tell me the playstyles/demands/encounters where you want to stack haste over crit and vice versa (excluding retarded playstyles that don't use their cds)? Thinking that two playstyles/gearing choices would be so incredibly close that they are completely even in a game like wow is complete madness, the "challenge" is to determine which is superior, not that one is (that much is obvious).

We have three Disc/Holy Priests (one is currently a trial) on my raid team. Two favor Disc to the point that they really would prefer never to play Holy. Then there's me, who isn't a huge fan of Holy but is willing to play it when needed (and it's been needed). Between us three, we have had fairly radical gemming differences. In particular, myself and the other member Priest have gone in different directions previously. Originally, he was going full into Crit and Mastery, and eschewing Haste. On the other hand, I have been maintaining various Haste breakpoints (due to speccing Holy on quite a few fights) and sinking the rest into Mastery (which is very beneficial to Holy as well as Disc). I've eschewed Crit for two reasons: 1) I just don't like it and don't believe that it is necessarily better in every situation than Haste or Mastery and 2) It's really low priority for Holy, so there's no reason to be forging/gemming into it when I'll just have to swap my gems back and forth depending on the fight. I'm not a rich woman.

But we all "play around" with our gems and enchants from time to time. In the testing I did, regardless of what stat priority we have gone to, we have always remained within about 2k HPS of each other. Sometimes he's on top (especially when he had a good deal more gear than I had). Sometimes I'm on top. It doesn't appear to matter all that much which stat priority we choose because we remain so close in actual performance.

I have also tested different gemming weights myself, and it doesn't make a big enough difference for me to really be able to say, personally, that one style is better than another. In fact, my numbers went down when I went harder into Crit and dropped Haste. Everyone's playstyle is different, and this is going to reflect in what stats work for them. This isn't a hard and fast discipline.

The vast majority of people aren't in world Top 10 guilds. What you're saying might work in world top 10 guilds (though I bet there are some rebels even there), but that doesn't mean it's going to work for every player in every guild. The spec is designed to be fluid in playstyle. What's more, if someone doesn't enjoy a playstyle, it may not work for them. Enjoyment also breeds excellence. If you're having fun (it...is a game, right?), then you tend to try to do MORE of having fun.

In the end, I just find it quite silly that you think there is one way - and only one way - to play and gear a Disc Priest. Because it's not true. It wasn't true in DS, either, despite people swearing up and down that there was only ONE TRUE WAY to balance your secondary stats, as if playing a Discipline Priest was a freaking religion.

Either you believe that 1 int > 2 mastery (or crit or haste, whatever) and gem 160int in reds, 80 int/160mastery in yellows, or you believe that 2 mastery > 1 int and gem 80int/160mastery in reds and 320 mastery in yellows.

Your gemming choices suggest that you have no clue or don't care.

Well, obviously I neither have a clue nor care. This is easily deduced by my post.

It would help, of course, if you would explain the reasoning between your two hilarious choices as to my motivation.

[Deleted]

I said "fine" because not every raid group is the same. It simply isn't possible to play the "optimal on paper" model in every group. If you're in a fantastic group, with fantastic players who never fuck up, doing bosses the way they were meant to be done, then great - go with the "optimal on paper" model and you will shine!

But if you're in a group where things are a little wonky, and maybe not everyone is on the same level, and maybe you have to baby the tank a bit, or baby a DPS a bit, or maybe your co-healer(s) isn't quite on the same level as you are, or maybe your strat calls for you to do different things, the "optimal on paper" model may not work for you. Which is why there is wiggle room.

and how does haste become a better stat compared to crit just because your group is shit? What group composition/skill makes haste superior to crit? Why? You can't answer because you have no friggin' clue.

Not in my experience.

Your experience doing what? Playing? Yes, you are truly going to notice the slight difference in 1 int compared to 2 crit while playing, theorycrafting it would just be silly, right?

I'm so happy you're sitting in my head knowing my reasons for the gems I choose. It's so good to know I have someone from the internet there to tell me I'm a fuckwit who doesn't know anything based on a single post on the internet!

So tell me. Why are you using hybrid gems in your yellow slots when you repeatedly claim that 2 haste or mastery is superior to 1 int? Your armory and statements simply don't make sense, that's all there is to it.

But we all "play around" with our gems and enchants from time to time. In the testing I did, regardless of what stat priority we have gone to, we have always remained within about 2k HPS of each other. Sometimes he's on top (especially when he had a good deal more gear than I had). Sometimes I'm on top. It doesn't appear to matter all that much which stat priority we choose because we remain so close in actual performance.


I have also tested different gemming weights myself, and it doesn't make a big enough difference for me to really be able to say, personally, that one style is better than another. In fact, my numbers went down when I went harder into Crit and dropped Haste.

Do you actually think that two different fights or your gameplay are so similar that you can determine which way to gem is superior based on that? The difference between gemming mastery or int or crit isn't bigger than the variances present in every encounter, that's why you theorycraft it over "feeling" what's superior.

Everyone's playstyle is different, and this is going to reflect in what stats work for them. This isn't a hard and fast discipline.

So what playstyle makes haste better than crit? Please tell me, cause the only one I can come up with is one that involves spamming fillers over using your cds, and that's just outright retarded.

The vast majority of people aren't in world Top 10 guilds. What you're saying might work in world top 10 guilds (though I bet there are some rebels even there), but that doesn't mean it's going to work for every player in every guild. The spec is designed to be fluid in playstyle. What's more, if someone doesn't enjoy a playstyle, it may not work for them. Enjoyment also breeds excellence. If you're having fun (it...is a game, right?), then you tend to try to do MORE of having fun.

Yeah, damn that extra 2k haste is bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you. Again, why would gearing for haste somehow be superior because your guildies are shit?

In the end, I just find it quite silly that you think there is one way - and only one way - to play and gear a Disc Priest. Because it's not true. It wasn't true in DS, either, despite people swearing up and down that there was only ONE TRUE WAY to balance your secondary stats, as if playing a Discipline Priest was a freaking religion.

Blizzard aren't capable nor striving for every stat/playstyle to be exactly even, the end result of that is that one stat/playstyle combination will be the best way to play the spec. That you can gear and play it in a different way (you can run around naked and spam "heal" as well) doesn't change this at all.

Well, obviously I neither have a clue nor care. This is easily deduced by my post.

It would help, of course, if you would explain the reasoning between your two hilarious choices as to my motivation.

You claim that 2 haste/mastery is superior to 1 int. You sacrifice 2 mastery/haste for 1 int by not gemming straight yellow gems. Clarify why.

[TirielWoW]

and how does haste become a better stat compared to crit just because your group is shit? What group composition/skill makes haste superior to crit? Why? You can't answer because you have no friggin' clue.

First, I was not saying that it is only Haste that does this. There are two other stats (three, if you count Spirit), and what I was saying is that how you balance those stats is dependent on the encounter you're on.

You may need faster cast times to make up for poor play. For instance, Haste increases the DPS you can get from Atonement (as does Crit to an extent, but they generally go better together). You may find yourself spamming bubbles on a particular encounter, making Mastery much more valuable to you than Crit (and previously, before the BT change, it would also devalue Haste, but this is a bit different now that only Haste lowers your GCD). You may have a fight where you have to do a lot of hard casting of PoH and you want to get it to a specific cast time to either allow more Spirit Shell casts or to simply make it easier for you to make up for poor play (i.e. you get hit with a turtle, a venom pool opens up under your feet, Kaz decides to charge you, you get Lingering Gaze, a purple pool suddenly (lol) shows up behind you, etc.). You may have a fight where there are periods of high atonement use, and then periods of high bubble use, making you favor Haste and Mastery over Crit, or periods where you do almost no bubble use and almost exclusively Atonement, which would favor Haste and Crit over Mastery.

Your experience doing what? Playing? Yes, you are truly going to notice the slight difference in 1 int compared to 2 crit while playing, theorycrafting it would just be silly, right?

Are you...actually making the argument that people who play don't know anything about how to gear? And that only people who look on spreadsheets and do a lot of math know anything about how a player should gear? o_O

So tell me. Why are you using hybrid gems in your yellow slots when you repeatedly claim that 2 haste or mastery is superior to 1 int? Your armory and statements simply don't make sense, that's all there is to it.

I have never made that claim. You, and a few others, have repeatedly put words in my mouth, but I have never said that. What I said is that you can get secondary stats more easily in gem slots so why not use them? I gem hybrids because it allows me more leeway reforging on my actual gear.

Do you actually think that two different fights or your gameplay are so similar that you can determine which way to gem is superior based on that? The difference between gemming mastery or int or crit isn't bigger than the variances present in every encounter, that's why you theorycraft it over "feeling" what's superior.

I think that looking at my numbers on the same fight over a span of several weeks tells me a lot.

So what playstyle makes haste better than crit? Please tell me, cause the only one I can come up with is one that involves spamming fillers over using your cds, and that's just outright retarded.

I'm not entirely sure how you can "spam" CDs, unless you are talking about Holy Fire/Solace and Penance? There are a variety of playstyles that could make Haste more attractive. I believe I already covered that above. Don't forget, too, that Haste dictates how often your meta and RPPM trinkets will proc.

Yeah, damn that extra 2k haste is bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you. Again, why would gearing for haste somehow be superior because your guildies are shit?

I'm just curious...have you cleared Heroic Lei Shen yet? Why not link your character, and we can compare e-peens, since you are insisting on being a complete asshat. If you can't engage me on an intellectual level, don't think that insulting and demeaning me is going to get you anywhere. It just makes you look foolish.

Blizzard aren't capable nor striving for every stat/playstyle to be exactly even, the end result of that is that one stat/playstyle combination will be the best way to play the spec. That you can gear and play it in a different way (you can run around naked and spam "heal" as well) doesn't change this at all.

They are fully capable of creating "wiggle room." We're human beings. No one - not even the top best-of-the-best possible players - plays perfectly in every situation.

You claim that 2 haste/mastery is superior to 1 int. You sacrifice 2 mastery/haste for 1 int by not gemming straight yellow gems. Clarify why.

I've never made this claim, so I can't clarify it. Perhaps you could clarify why you are so insulted by my words and views that you feel the need to continuously insult and demean me? Perhaps you could clarify why are you are so threatened by me that you insist on putting words in my mouth and then demanding that I clarify things I did not say? Perhaps you should clarify to me why you cannot engage me on an intellectual, factual level and instead feel the need to continually speak in a condescending and irrationally abusive and demeaning manner?

I'm actually rather curious.

[Deleted]

First, I was not saying that it is only Haste that does this. There are two other stats (three, if you count Spirit), and what I was saying is that how you balance those stats is dependent on the encounter you're on.

You may need faster cast times to make up for poor play. For instance, Haste increases the DPS you can get from Atonement (as does Crit to an extent, but they generally go better together). You may find yourself spamming bubbles on a particular encounter, making Mastery much more valuable to you than Crit (and previously, before the BT change, it would also devalue Haste, but this is a bit different now that only Haste lowers your GCD). You may have a fight where you have to do a lot of hard casting of PoH and you want to get it to a specific cast time to either allow more Spirit Shell casts or to simply make it easier for you to make up for poor play (i.e. you get hit with a turtle, a venom pool opens up under your feet, Kaz decides to charge you, you get Lingering Gaze, a purple pool suddenly (lol) shows up behind you, etc.). You may have a fight where there are periods of high atonement use, and then periods of high bubble use, making you favor Haste and Mastery over Crit, or periods where you do almost no bubble use and almost exclusively Atonement, which would favor Haste and Crit over Mastery.

Yes, how you balance your stat varies based on the encounter I'm well aware of this, when I was raiding regularly I was switching roughly 4k spirit based on the encounter. What I'm asking repeatedly is how the skill/composition of your raid changes your stats (which you claim), how is quicker casts more important than stronger casts if people fuck up more? Especially when most of our emergency buttons are instant.

Are you...actually making the argument that people who play don't know anything about how to gear? And that only people who look on spreadsheets and do a lot of math know anything about how a player should gear? o_O

Yes, glad that we're on the same page for once. The difference between crit, mastery and int simply isn't large enough for a player to notice the difference unless the amount changed is extreme, the change is simply too small combined with rng and the variations between each fight. Would you even know that mastery is better than crit (which it is, for any realistic gear setup) for shields if neither you or someone else did some math regarding it? How much is the difference between the stats according to your "feeling", since it's so accurate?

I have never made that claim. You, and a few others, have repeatedly put words in my mouth, but I have never said that. What I said is that you can get secondary stats more easily in gem slots so why not use them? I gem hybrids because it allows me more leeway reforging on my actual gear.

So is 1 int exactly as good as 2 mastery now according to you? If not, why aren't you using red/yellow gems to get more mastery/int? Which stat is worth more to you? You can't get secondary stats more easily than int in gem slots, in fact you can't even reforge into int at all, the only way to adjust the amount is with gems. Do you have some special mastery/haste cap, or why would the fact that you have more/less of it give you more leeway regarding your reforging?

I think that looking at my numbers on the same fight over a span of several weeks tells me a lot.

It sure does, it tells you nothing about what stat is superior unless you do some math about how said numbers are affected though.

I'm not entirely sure how you can "spam" CDs, unless you are talking about Holy Fire/Solace and Penance?

The only playstyle where haste ends up superior to crit/mastery is if you spam fillers instead of using your cds, this is bad but it's a playstyle.

There are a variety of playstyles that could make Haste more attractive.

and you haven't named a single one where quicker casts would be much more important than stronger casts.

Don't forget, too, that Haste dictates how often your meta and RPPM trinkets will proc.

Yes, having lgm+2 rppm trinkets makes haste comparatively stronger (it's dogshit compared to crit without them). I've yet to see any math that indicates that this makes it overtake crit/mastery.

I'm just curious...have you cleared Heroic Lei Shen yet? Why not link your character, and we can compare e-peens, since you are insisting on being a complete asshat. If you can't engage me on an intellectual level, don't think that insulting and demeaning me is going to get you anywhere. It just makes you look foolish.

No I haven't, I actually have slightly less progress than you (which I find incredibly embarassing, but I'll attribute that to me not raiding actively for almost a month). You want to keep the discussion intellectual, yet wants my character, why? Where am I insulting and demeaning you? I used a bit of sarcasm (since your claim quite frankly was laughable) and I'm also being blunt, but considering your inability to read what I type (you've yet to respond to the majority of my questions) it seems necessary. If you want to be subjective I'm honestly starting to find your inability to respond to my questions rude and insulting, but I'll try to keep myself together.

They are fully capable of creating "wiggle room." We're human beings. No one - not even the top best-of-the-best possible players - plays perfectly in every situation.

So? How does this favor haste? If anything haste is the one stat that suffers the most from slow reactions/ping.

I've never made this claim, so I can't clarify it. Perhaps you could clarify why you are so insulted by my words and views that you feel the need to continuously insult and demean me? Perhaps you could clarify why are you are so threatened by me that you insist on putting words in my mouth and then demanding that I clarify things I did not say? Perhaps you should clarify to me why you cannot engage me on an intellectual, factual level and instead feel the need to continually speak in a condescending and irrationally abusive and demeaning manner?

Considering that I'm not the only one who has perceived your comments as you thinking 2 mastery/haste>1 int perhaps it's you who needs to be more clear about what you type? If you find my posts so incredibly insulting/demeaning I quite frankly can't imagine how you'll handle going through life or interacting with other people, almost any job where you interact with people (especially customers) would leave you traumatized. I'll admit that I'm struggling heavily to engage you on an intellectual/factual level since your posts seems to be entirely void of these things, this also makes it hard to respect you but I'm doing my best.

[TirielWoW]

Yes, how you balance your stat varies based on the encounter I'm well aware of this, when I was raiding regularly I was switching roughly 4k spirit based on the encounter. What I'm asking repeatedly is how the skill/composition of your raid changes your stats (which you claim), how is quicker casts more important than stronger casts if people fuck up more? Especially when most of our emergency buttons are instant.

Which emergency buttons? I'll grant you, Penance and PW: Shield, but what if Penance is on CD and the person has Weakened Soul? Then you probably want to Flash him up. I have actually had situations where someone (usually a tank, but...) died between the 1st and 2nd Penance Volley, and had I actually used Flash Heal, they'd be better off.

Or, perhaps a better example would be if I was actually tank healing (something I don't really do, generally, in a 25 man, but happens more often in a 10 man setting, less healers overall usually results in more direct heals on the tank). Or any situation where single-target direct healing is more beneficial than Atonement or AoE healing (Frostbite on H Council comes to mind), I'm probably trying to heal Weakened Soul off as quickly as possible, and the faster I can Flash the better. And don't say, "But mana!" because I can regain that with a well-timed Mindbender + HoH.

Also, it isn't just emergency healing. If your group has low damage, being able to put out more damage may be more beneficial. It's the same reason why Smite spam outweighs Heal spam, even though Heal costs less (well, very slightly more if full Evangelism stacks) and heals for more - because Smite is faster and so you get more healing in the same period for about the same mana cost.

Yes, glad that we're on the same page for once. The difference between crit, mastery and int simply isn't large enough for a player to notice the difference unless the amount changed is extreme, the change is simply too small combined with rng and the variations between each fight.

Interesting. Well, it's good to know that you spreadsheet warriors are here to tell all of us stupid, idiotic players (who are, you know, actually seeing the encounters) that we're wrong and if we would just do what you (who have never actually seen the encounters) say, we'd be ok!

So is 1 int exactly as good as 2 mastery now according to you? If not, why aren't you using red/yellow gems to get more mastery/int? Which stat is worth more to you? You can't get secondary stats more easily than int in gem slots, in fact you can't even reforge into int at all, the only way to adjust the amount is with gems. Do you have some special mastery/haste cap, or why would the fact that you have more/less of it give you more leeway regarding your reforging?

There are Haste breakpoints that I try to meet, yes. And yes, gemming for one stat or another gives me more leeway when I'm trying to reforge to a particular point (as I've said...repeatedly?). But ah...you can absolutely change your intellect amount. It's called getting more gear (which, incidentally, comes with more secondary stats). I don't value secondary stats to the exclusion of intellect, but neither do I value raw spellpower to the exclusion of secondary stats. It's called balance.

It sure does, it tells you nothing about what stat is superior unless you calculate it though.

Why do I need a spreadsheet when I can look at my logs and see how my performance was on a fight one week with one particular reforging style, and then look at a different log of the same fight with a completely different reforging style, if all other situations are the same? It's not like we don't take the same people to fights, or don't do the same things each week.

The only playstyle where haste ends up superior to crit/mastery is if you spam fillers instead of using your cds, this is bad.

What do you consider to be a "filler" spell?

and you haven't named a single one where quicker casts would be better than stronger casts.

Smite vs. Heal.

Yes, having lgm+2 rppm trinkets makes haste comparatively stronger (it's dogshit compared to crit without them). I've yet to see any math that indicates that this makes it overtake crit/mastery.

I have yet to see any situation where Crit and Mastery gave me better numbers in an actual encounter. And I have tried it.

No I haven't, I actually have slightly less progress than you (which I find incredibly embarassing, but I'll attribute that to me not raiding actively for almost a month). You want to keep the discussion intellectual, yet wants my character? Where am I insulting and demeaning you? I used a bit of sarcasm (since your claim quite frankly was laughable) and I'm also being blunt, but considering your inability to read what I type (you've yet to respond to the majority of my questions) it seems necessary.

I think perhaps you should re-read what you said here. I've bolded so that you can catch on, too:

Yeah, damn that extra 2k haste is bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you. Again, why would gearing for haste somehow be superior because your guildies are shit?

Now, if I misunderstood what you said, then I apologize, but I have a serious problem with people calling my guildies shit just to take a dig at me.

So? How does this favor haste? If anything haste is the one stat that suffers the most from slow reactions/ping.

I never said it favored Haste. What I have said, again and again and again (perhaps this time you'll read it?), is that I favor Haste and Mastery. And others may favor Crit and Mastery. And still others may favor Haste and Crit. And others may favor Crit and Mastery for one fight, Haste and Crit for another, and Mastery and Haste for a third. And these are all valid. Your stat weights don't make enough of an actual difference in an actual encounter to make it valid or accurate to claim there is only one way to balance your stats. There isn't just one way. There are several ways, and they all work, and the same player may perform better using a variety of stat weights.

It depends on the player.

It depends on their raid comp.

It depends on their precise role in the raid.

It depends on their raid size.

It depends on their raid strat.

It depends on the strengths and weaknesses of their raid members.

It depends on their own strengths and weaknesses.

And most of all, it depends on what they enjoy, because people do better when they enjoy what they are doing. If someone doesn't like a playstyle, it will show in their performance.

Considering that I'm not the only one who has perceived your comments as you thinking 2 mastery/haste>1 int perhaps it's you who needs to be more clear about what you type?

It's really not my fault you decided I was saying something I never actually said.

If you find my posts so incredibly insulting/demeaning I quite frankly can't imagine how you'll handle going through life or interacting with other people, almost any job where you interact with people (especially customers) would leave you traumatized.

It's funny, but I find very few people in the real world who call other people retarded, suggest that they are too stupid to understand things, call them names, or put them down. Yet you've done all of these to me. And the funny part is, you can't even see it. Let's see...

You can't answer because you have no friggin' clue.

that's just outright retarded.

bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you.

because your guildies are shit

Oh yeah, because you have absolutely no clue about your stat weights and just throw in some random gems that you "feel" are good.

And then just the general tone of your posts.

I'll admit that I'm struggling heavily to engage you on an intellectual/factual level since your posts seems to be entirely void of these things, this also makes it hard to respect you but I'm doing my best.

I'm sorry, I could post spreadsheet math but I don't see the point. You seem to be of the belief that the only thing that matters is what the spreadsheet tells you. I'm of the belief that the spreadsheet is helpful, but actual situations have a habit of throwing wrenches into what a spreadsheet says. People are not robots, and healing can only be partially "mathed out" because we're not just fighting the mechanics of an encounter, we're fighting joe bob Mage who has to be coached over Vent when to use his Iceblock. We're fighting Andy, the Paladin tank who isn't quite sure when his health is spiking and his SotR uptime is lower than it should be. We're fighting Toby, the Hunter who can't figure out how to move and DPS at the same time. We're fighting Katie, the sweet, lovable Warlock who sometimes stands in fire because her green fire completely covers Durumu's maze (which ends up leading to other people standing in fire, but I digress).

What works for me may not work for you. A spreadsheet is a place to start, but it is almost never the place that a healer should finish.

[Deleted]

Which emergency buttons? I'll grant you, Penance and PW: Shield, but what if Penance is on CD and the person has Weakened Soul? Then you probably want to Flash him up. I have actually had situations where someone (usually a tank, but...) died between the 1st and 2nd Penance Volley, and had I actually used Flash Heal, they'd be better off.

Or, perhaps a better example would be if I was actually tank healing (something I don't really do, generally, in a 25 man, but happens more often in a 10 man setting, less healers overall usually results in more direct heals on the tank). Or any situation where single-target direct healing is more beneficial than Atonement or AoE healing (Frostbite on H Council comes to mind), I'm probably trying to heal Weakened Soul off as quickly as possible, and the faster I can Flash the better. And don't say, "But mana!" because I can regain that with a well-timed Mindbender + HoH.

Ye, those few situations will totally outweigh the fact that your emergency buttons (penance, pw:s, pom and even flash heal) will be significantly stronger in every other case.

Also, it isn't just emergency healing. If your group has low damage, being able to put out more damage may be more beneficial.

Yep, being able to do that without an increased mana cost (crit) sounds quite awesome to me.

It's the same reason why Smite spam outweighs Heal spam, even though Heal costs less (well, very slightly more if full Evangelism stacks) and heals for more - because Smite is faster and so you get more healing in the same period for about the same mana cost.

Here's the catch, you don't chose between haste and nothing, you chose between haste and stronger heals.

Interesting. Well, it's good to know that you spreadsheet warriors are here to tell all of us stupid, idiotic players (who are, you know, actually seeing the encounters) that we're wrong and if we would just do what you (who have never actually seen the encounters) say, we'd be ok!

"Spreadsheet warriors" and I'm being insulting. Yes, for people who are unable to or just can't be arsed (if you feel that you and everyone else who don't theorycraft are stupid/idiotic, so be it) it's great that some people go through the trouble of doing said math. From personal experience it's also significantly more common that people who raid at a high level and see the encounters theorycraft.

There are Haste breakpoints that I try to meet, yes. And yes, gemming for one stat or another gives me more leeway when I'm trying to reforge to a particular point (as I've said...repeatedly?).

Are there mastery breakpoints as well since you were gemming for that before? Not that there are many haste breakpoints that are particularly valuable for disc (and how do you even know those? Are you just "feeling" them?). What are you using the "spare" stats that you get from the leeway on that's so incredibly cruical?

But ah...you can absolutely change your intellect amount. It's called getting more gear (which, incidentally, comes with more secondary stats).

Since you increase every stat from getting new gear I was hoping that this'd be obvious even for you, apparently I was wrong. Excluding that there's only gemming.

I don't value secondary stats to the exclusion of intellect, but neither do I value raw spellpower to the exclusion of secondary stats. It's called balance.

So where's this magic balance for you? What do you base it on? "Feeling"? "Feeling" is telling you that 22385 int and 5807 haste is superior to 22305 int and 5967 haste?

Why do I need a spreadsheet when I can look at my logs and see how my performance was on a fight one week with one particular reforging style, and then look at a different log of the same fight with a completely different reforging style, if all other situations are the same? It's not like we don't take the same people to fights, or don't do the same things each week.

Do you actually think that every fight plays out exactly the same every week? That every person has exactly the same position, uses exactly the same spells, crits, dodges and parries exactly the same spells/attacks? That every single player plays just as well every time? Every single fight has huge variations hence it's useless to compare the performance like you do.

What do you consider to be a "filler" spell?

In short, a spell without a cd.

Smite vs. Heal.

Yes, in this case smite is almost twice as quick while healing just as much. In the context of haste vs crit/mastery/int, when is it so much better to cast X haste rating quicker than for your heals to hit X crit/mastery/int harder?

I have yet to see any situation where Crit and Mastery gave me better numbers in an actual encounter. And I have tried it.

Ah yes, that magic feeling.

I think perhaps you should re-read what you said here. I've bolded so that you can catch on, too:

Yeah, damn that extra 2k haste is bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you. Again, why would gearing for haste somehow be superior because your guildies are shit?

Now, if I misunderstood what you said, then I apologize, but I have a serious problem with people calling my guildies shit just to take a dig at me.

This is what you said about your grp and what I responded to:

But if you're in a group where things are a little wonky, and maybe not everyone is on the same level, and maybe you have to baby the tank a bit, or baby a DPS a bit, or maybe your co-healer(s) isn't quite on the same level as you are

not ....doing bosses the way they were meant to be done....

These are your words and the ones I responded to. By my standard people who can't do fights as they are supposed to be done are shit, if you'd use a different word that's up to you but we're refering to the same thing.

I never said it favored Haste. What I have said, again and again and again (perhaps this time you'll read it?), is that I favor Haste and Mastery. And others may favor Crit and Mastery. And still others may favor Haste and Crit. And others may favor Crit and Mastery for one fight, Haste and Crit for another, and Mastery and Haste for a third. And these are all valid.

What is valid? Gearing one way (for one specific fight!) will always be superior to another, two ways are never exactly the same (or there wouldn't even be a point of different stats).

Your stat weights don't make enough of an actual difference in an actual encounter to make it valid or accurate to claim there is only one way to balance your stats. There isn't just one way. There are several ways, and they all work, and the same player may perform better using a variety of stat weights.

Yes it makes a difference. The difference is slight but it exists. If one way is superior, even by a small margin, why wouldn't you use it? There are several ways to gear for a boss, but only one that's optimal. Why wouldn't you use it? Why would some person magically perform better with a stat combination that gives less healing? Are there a ton of shadowpriests who'd perform better by reforging all out of haste as well? Why is that different?

It depends on the player.

It depends on their raid comp.

It depends on their precise role in the raid.

It depends on their raid size.

It depends on their raid strat.

It depends on the strengths and weaknesses of their raid members.

It depends on their own strengths and weaknesses.

And most of all, it depends on what they enjoy, because people do better when they enjoy what they are doing. If someone doesn't like a playstyle, it will show in their performance.

What player/role/size/strat/members favor haste over crit gearing? Please tell me, cause I have no clue. How does gearing for crit instead of haste change your playstyle/make you enjoy the game less by a significant amount?

It's really not my fault you decided I was saying something I never actually said.

So when several people interpret the thing you type in a certain way your go-to response is that it's their fault?

It's funny, but I find very few people in the real world who call other people retarded, suggest that they are too stupid to understand things, call them names, or put them down. Yet you've done all of these to me. And the funny part is, you can't even see it. Let's see...

Have you ever been in contact with a customer?:P I haven't called you names. I have stated that you don't understand things, which is true, so yes I'm being blunt (which I already admitted). It's hard to avoid that someone feels a bit put down when you have to explain that they don't understand what they are talking about.

You can't answer because you have no friggin' clue.

Oh yeah, because you have absolutely no clue about your stat weights and just throw in some random gems that you "feel" are good.

Yes, as stated you don't understand how stat weights work.

that's just outright retarded.

I called a playstyle that I brought up to illustrate something retarded and you think it's aimed at you? No offence but that is kinda retarded to me, sorry...

bringing you so much joy, I can't even imagine how much more fun it makes the game for you.

You have repeatedly written things that many would interpret (I'm sure you mean something else entirely, right?:P) as gearing for haste/mastery making the game significantly more fun for you. Since I find that statement incredibly amusing I exaggerated it slightly, I understand that this is insanely hurtful for you (<-not even sure if that's an exaggeration)

because your guildies are shit

You were the one who described your guildies as inferior/bad in several regards and it's a huge leap for me to call them shit?:P

And then just the general tone of your posts.

and I find the general tone of your posts rude and disrespectful, I demand an apology!

I'm sorry, I could post spreadsheet math but I don't see the point. You seem to be of the belief that the only thing that matters is what the spreadsheet tells you. I'm of the belief that the spreadsheet is helpful, but actual situations have a habit of throwing wrenches into what a spreadsheet says. People are not robots, and healing can only be partially "mathed out" because we're not just fighting the mechanics of an encounter, we're fighting joe bob Mage who has to be coached over Vent when to use his Iceblock. We're fighting Andy, the Paladin tank who isn't quite sure when his health is spiking and his SotR uptime is lower than it should be. We're fighting Toby, the Hunter who can't figure out how to move and DPS at the same time. We're fighting Katie, the sweet, lovable Warlock who sometimes stands in fire because her green fire completely covers Durumu's maze (which ends up leading to other people standing in fire, but I digress).

Yes, if you can factor in all relevant things math will tell you the correct answer to everything (that it's pretty much impossible is another matter). It's practically impossible to factor in *X player fucking up* but in general anything that forces you to pay attention to other things will lower hastes comparative value to crit. Do you claim that the impact of a factor so obscure that you can't math can be valued accurately with your "feeling"?

What works for me may not work for you. A spreadsheet is a place to start, but it is almost never the place that a healer should finish.

Obviously playing properly will have a far bigger impact than anything else for a healer. This is however something that math helps you do since it helps you determine what spells to use in what situations, what talents/glyphs to use and what gear to use. Using math that's already been done for you to determine your gearing is a healing increase for almost no effort at all.