Garrosh Hellscream and to those who liked him

[Maxilian]

TLDR 'Garrosh is a Douchebag'

I like Garrosh because he is more like how the Orcs should be, I don't like the flower picking Orcs under Thrall.

I hate Garrosh but i agree that he gave the game what it needed :P.... but now... HE SHOULD DIE! (I wouldn't mind a lot if he survives and run away with a group of Orcs and create another Faction that we will fight in the future)






Off topic: Dam... now i like the idea of a third faction >.>

---------- Post added 2013-06-20 at 01:32 PM ----------

I submit that, assuming Garrosh actually dies, we will be the worse for the loss of a character that inspires such fervent debate.

Not really, these debate will come again... but the target will be Sylvanas (again), at least in the case of Sylvanas the debate is not that big, we only have 3 groups:

Group one: FOR THE DARK LADY!, She haven't done anything bad!

Group two: KILL THE LICH QUEEN!, She's doing the same thing the Lich King did!

Group Three: Whatever... we know she haven't done many/any bad things... but... SHE'S A BITCH!

[Trassk]

people keep saying Garrosh is what the orcs needed.. but.. really? you think that?

Garrosh as systematicly made it that the rest of the horde are now attacking and killing the orcs across the barrens and durotar. He's using dark magics to experiment and corrupt the orcs, he's created a state of fear in those orcs that don't want to follow but are held by it, and just about all the orc defenders, the kor'kohn, are doing to be wiped out, other major orc leaders killed by the rebels and alliance, and its current leader becoming a mutated monster that dies.

This has done nothing for the orcs except make some of there buildings slightly modified, and even those proved nothing when a siege consisting of wooden huts can take them on.

All this with the orcs, none of it is done for them, the orcs are going to suffer for a while after all this has blown over. Its the other horde races that get anything out of it at the end, proving they can work towards something without orcish influence to back it.

The only good thing Garrosh did, was make it so other races of the horde grew stronger, well the orcs themselves will falter.

[Thaeru]

My thoughts: I liked Garrosh because was competent, his attitude was pro-active and he managed to always get results in the name of the Horde. Looking at the portrayal of Thrall, we know Orcs aren't exactly living comfortable lives because it's their penance for the actions of their father. The faction leader story rubbed this in, the whole pushing for more resources pushed this in and he wasn't afraid of saying "we're fighting the night elves for Ashenvale" rather than pretending it doesn't exist like Thrall does. He saw his people downtrodden, he wanted to carve a place for them in the world rather than kick them while they're down.

My problem with this whole portrayal is that it's inconsistent, they've made Garrosh swap from competent but brash (Cairn, Stonetalon Mountains, Twilight Highlands) leader into some monstrous villain who cackles incessantly to make sure everyone knows how evil he is. Pandaria's entire storyline was just rubbing in how Garrosh is evil, they're not even trying to portray him in any redeemable light and want us to not feel bad they're committing treason by fighting against him.

The fact that his death basically means the Alliance vs Horde war will end with so many unresolved conflicts despite everyone's legitimate reasons for fighting each other just makes me feel like they have no idea what they're doing aside from trying to preach their "war is bad" message which they've been doing all of Pandaria, worse so when you consider they had to whitewash Varian into an antithesis of Garrosh despite both being exactly the same personality in Wrath/Cata.

[mizeri]

I still love him cause of his i love the orcs and fuck the rest attitude

and besides who gives a shit about the others Azeroth belongs to the orcs we all know it.

The True horde never needed the Selfish belfs, The money grubbing goblins, The Lich Queen, The hippy tauren or the wacked out trolls

They were and always had been canon fodder to us

Oh well next time gadget next time

The true horde will rise again when our lord and master sargeras comes back to rape you all

but seriously who gives a fuck about a badly written character who had to do a heel turn just to please the carebears who never took to him in the beginning and never gave him a chance

I liked him, he got tired of all the alliance rear that thrall kissed.

[Blufossa]

Stuff.

I agreed up until you insulted our soldiers by lumping in the bad ones with the actual soldiers.

Shame on you.

@the actual topic: I liked Garrosh up until Blizzard f'd up his character in Tides of War. I felt it was a cheap copout to appease the Thrall-lovers out there. Personally, if I'd done the stories: Thrall would've died fighting Deathwing, and Garrosh would've stepped up to the plate and had been brutish but reasonable.

[Wildberry]

Not really, these debate will come again... but the target will be Sylvanas (again), at least in the case of Sylvanas the debate is not that big, we only have 3 groups:

Group one: FOR THE DARK LADY!, She haven't done anything bad!

Group two: KILL THE LICH QUEEN!, She's doing the same thing the Lich King did!

Group Three: Whatever... we know she haven't done many/any bad things... but... SHE'S A BITCH!

Oh God, I am already prepared to use Caps lock to its full extent when dealing with Sylvanas fans...

[Verdugo]

Not really, these debate will come again... but the target will be Sylvanas (again), at least in the case of Sylvanas the debate is not that big, we only have 3 groups:

Group one: FOR THE DARK LADY!, She haven't done anything bad!

Group two: KILL THE LICH QUEEN!, She's doing the same thing the Lich King did!

Group Three: Whatever... we know she haven't done many/any bad things... but... SHE'S A BITCH!

Group Four: We want playable scourge.

[Zulkhan]

The "True Horde" is an interesting "mid-way" between the Thrall's Horde and the Old Horde, tending a lot more on the second, still not EXCATLY like the second.
The Old Horde was an unstoppable war machine of conquest and domination, which killed without mercy its enemies, like Garrosh do, still, they also spat on their pride in name of power, becoming slaves, fel-corrupted, greedy, honorless bloodthirsty monsters that killed EVERYTHING in their path, slaughtering men, women and children alike.

Anyway, in my opinion, Garrosh doesn't absolutely know what the Horde SHOULD be or not to be. He just pretend to know. In reality he just followed what his "Hellscream's blood" suggested to him, following his innate nature and shaping the New Horde in HIS Horde, in what HE thought the Horde should be, basically a reflection of himself. But in fact, "his" Horde was nothing like the divided clans of warriors in Draenor, defending with ferocity their ground but basically minding their own businesses, and nothing like Thrall's Horde aswell, obviously.

"His" Horde has been "inspired" a lot by what the Old Horde was, because were of that Horde the stories he heard when he was a pup in Nagrand, but he also looked at them as corrupted and pride-less morons, which failed to conquer the new world they needed (since Draenor was fucked) because of their "weakness"; his "heroic" father managed to free the orcish race by their corruption, and now Garrosh, the badass son of the "hero", had to honor this by leading the orcs to obtain what they "deserved" and accomplish what the previous generation failed to do.

But the boy seems to completely forget that the Old Horde by which he took so much inspiration was BORN in manipulation and corruption, twisted by Gul'dan and his warlocks, so his "model", regardless of how much he tried to "mix it" with the pre-Gul'dan orcish habits like shamanism and the whole "honor in battle", was twisted; he thought that that was the true orcish way because he liked to think that, since he was the son of his father, an orc (Grommash) that far before drinking the blood of Mannoroth, was one of the more violent chieftains, that liked the thought of conquer lands throught strength and utter dominion more than anyone else, that liked POWER more than anyone else, and Garrosh inherited these traits, i think it's pretty obvious to everyone at this point.

So this "True Horde" is not so "true", it's simply, as was before this adopted cool name, the Garrosh's Horde, ruled as he liked most. The fact that Garrosh presented himself as a "tough" leader was good and dandy, and would have continued to be good and great, if he would have thought to take in account that, still, this Horde was NOT his Horde, and instead of picking Thrall's Horde and leading it in just a more tougher and decisive way, he has gone so far, in his arrogance, to completely transform it in the "Hellscream's Horde", ruled with iron fist by the Warsong Clan, and pretending that this was the true and only orcish way.

He can have all his opinions about Thrall and his "weak" way of dealing with matters as leader, but thinking to turn and twist everything Thrall builded in what suited most his personal desires, despite the fact that he was nothing but a stranger of the Azerothian's Horde, it's pure arrogance and egoism, blatantly proved by his "MY Horde, MY world, MY glorious destiny", worth of the Hellscream he is.

For the rest i join MasterOfKnees, nomad1206 and others by saying that i absolutely like Garrosh by a story-wise purpose, all the mess he did, while absolutely despised as Horde player (personal taste, i like the Horde in WC3 and pre-Cata a lot more, that's it), gave a lot of inputs to the story, but most importantly is an amazing villain, not a trite twisted and manipulated moron that don't even absolutely know why is doing the shit is doing, doing evil because evil is great and wonderful, Garrosh is absolutely in his right mind (well, almost) and follow his own goals and dreams, despite that the fact that he is, by nature, a bad apple, like his father was.

For all of those that still delude themselves in the existance of "retcon conspirancies", i say that looking at Garrosh's background and legacy, the guy has been absolutely himself, until the end. Liking him for what he was supposed to be it's nonsense, especially when i read the reasons for which he was a "different persona" in Cata or the Shattering, things like these:

You always try to deny the theory that Garrosh is a resoult of extremly bad writing and a major retcon.

There is not even need to try, such a "theory" is shallow and fallacy by itself.

Say then, what would the current Garrosh do in Cairnes situation? Would he grieve, because the duel was made unhonorable by Magatha? No - he would ask her to give him the poison in the first place

Based on what? Garrosh in MoP still value all his selfish way of care about honor and pride, he would never cheat on a DUEL, because would be like deem himself "weak"; plus, Garrosh didn't still taste to its full effects what meant to be the great and unquestionable Warchief, he was one by little time and still kept some reservations and respect because he still had some doubts about the whole matter, things that he completely threw out of the window when he understood that be a Warchief was awesome, it's sufficient look how his behavior changed in Cataclysm compared to the Shattering, the shitty treatment he reserved to Vol'jin or his extremely arrogant and bashing attitude he had in general.

Would he deny her offer to attack Thunder Bluff? No - he would raither use it as an opportunity to place a certain ally as the leader of the Tauren.

This is crazy favoritism, he didn't appear in a good light there because he didn't help an obvious traitor of the tauren people that, much more importantly, stole his precious honorable kill, he appeared in a BAD light because he didn't support Baine in the retaking of Thunder Bluff, he just sat in his throne and waited, while Baine didn't even have a clear idea if Garrosh was plotting with Magatha or not, because of his complete lack of action; and in fact, Baine had no choices but to ask help to an Alliance leader for getting some support, while Garrosh, the Warchief of the Horde, did nothing; Garrosh has not been showed as evil there, ofcourse, but has been showed as non-caring and incompetent at best, like Vol'jin rightfully said in Cataclysm, and this by few days he has been appointed as Warchief. Yeah, so much potential there, indeed.

what would the current Garrosh do, hearing the Vol'Jin's threats about "arrows piercing black hearts"? I don't think I would be as generous as to let somebody who threatened me with death to leave without repercussions. Can't really imagine the horrors current Garrosh would have done.

Again absurd favoritism, marking the whole fact as a "good point" for Garrosh when he acted as an arrogant douchebag for the entire conversation, already abusing his power to bash people that said things that weren't of his liking. And you think that Garrosh has been "merciful" to not kill a second Horde leader after Cairne, this time with no excuses to back it up, just for some irritated words that he had a huge responsibility in incite them?

In Tides of War we see that Garrosh is not stupid and, while bashing people, he never try to openly go too far, because would compromise the support he need in his war campaigns. Still, he obviously didn't forget Vol'jin's threat, and in fact the troll he's the only Horde leader marked for death in MoP, still, Garrosh didn't want to kill him personally, he cared for do it in a smart way that could have been able to avoid the mess that such an act would have stirred. Beliving that he didn't cut Vol'jin's throat in Cataclysm out of mercy and not because of the amount of mess that such thing would have caused, is delusional, completely.

Sorry, but i'm growing a bit tired of people that not only pick the development they like ignoring what they not, but also look at what they like in the most likable way. Seriously, should be the hour to open your eyes and see the things for what they are, instead of dreaming for what they should have been in your heads.

[Dristereau]

I liked him during Cataclysm, particularly during the Stonetalon appearances and the introduction to Twilight Highlands. Stonetalon showed him developing and listening to Saurfang (looking back to WotLK) and he was becoming more of a leader (similar to how Varian is now in Mists) instead of meathead. Twilight Highlands for me showed him as strong (if still somewhat daft), but it was also memorable for him, and he still managed to turn up to get the Dragonmaw strongly into the Horde.

GET. OFF. MY. SHHIIIIIIIIP!

The Mists came and he was turned into a more stereotypical Orc, and seemed to forget his lessons from Stonetalon/Saurfang. Ah well

[ManjiSanji]

The only good thing Garrosh did, was make it so other races of the horde grew stronger, well the orcs themselves will falter.

This line of thought is, and always has been the problem with your fanatic hatred of Garrosh and the people who liked him in the story.

Garrosh was, whether written well or poorly, never meant to be the better solution for the Horde. Garrosh is, and always meant to be a driving force FOR THE STORY. The story between the Alliance and Horde, and even internally within the Horde has been stagnant and boring since Vanilla.

Garrosh brought conflict. He brought strife. He brought misunderstanding and tension and hate between the factions and even internally. Things changed! Things became more interesting! There's tension between the Alliance and Horde, there's actual internal politics within the Horde now that characters and players must consider. The world went to war, and not for a good, righteous reason, but because of tension, and it made things more interesting. It made the world in which we play a richer, better place.

There are a number of people, particularly a few who have made eloquent posts within this thread, whom I agree with, that feel that Garrosh himself could have been handled and written better. That instead of the silly grunting, screaming, "ORC SMASH!," character we've had for this entire expansion, that we could have had a far more grey character, which seemed to emerge from Stonetalon. A character who made some harsh decisions, who may have done some brutal things, but in the end, could be argued that he wasn't necessarily doing the wrong thing, but acting in what he felt was the right.

The best kind of villain is one you're not sure is wrong, and Garrosh had the potential to be that guy. It seemed he would have been written that way from a few quests, but the clamor of dislike for him was high, and his character shifted so drastically so often, many of us conclude he was changed to appease people. To be easily hated.

The truth is, this role could have belonged to anyone. It could have been Vol'jin. It could have been Baine. It could have been Moira. Anybody could have stirred things up, created some chaos, and given you, the player, pause to wonder if their actions were right, or they could have just been there to give you somebody to hate. In the end, they chose Garrosh. If this were the real world, of course Garrosh would not be the leader you want. Who wants to be at war all the time? Who wants to see children orphaned? Who wants blood on their hands?

But this isn't the real world. This is a game, with a story. Stories with peace and prosperity are boring.

In the end, the only real thing that Garrosh did was make the World of Warcraft a more interesting place.

[docterfreeze]

I liked him because he was the only warchief who got shit done. Everyone else was too friendly.

He never did anything bad during his time as warchief either, every move he made brought us a little closer to destroying the Alliance. Which is all I ever wanted as a member of the Horde.

And now, people of the Horde, prepare for the times of boring warchief to come back! Whoever he is will surely be friendly toward the alliance. Mark my words.

[Thehealbus]

I support Garrosh because he supports full out war with the alliance until they are all dead, I would be willing to sacrifice everything to kill as much alliance as possible, so I don't really care what else Garrosh does.

I don't want another pansy loser like Thrall to want to end hostilities with the filthy alliance.

[Mouri Kogorou]

I honestly feel as if Vol'jin and Baine are the bag guys since patch 5.3 ... Unless more things are being made clear I don't see the point of killing Garrosh for what he has done or what he might be doing.

i agree, i mean why do they really really want to work with the alliance ...

i thought the expansion was all about the war, i have never seen voljin and baine really wanting to work with the alliance this badly before.

[Trassk]

Garrosh was, whether written well or poorly, never meant to be the better solution for the Horde. Garrosh is, and always meant to be a driving force FOR THE STORY. The story between the Alliance and Horde, and even internally within the Horde has been stagnant and boring since Vanilla.

See now, I respect peoples opinions, when they have something intelligent to say about it, and this is an example. End of the day, Garrosh is a plot device, more then a well rounded character like the others. How else would you explain this so called change in personality, unless it was done to draw out the story and have him become a foil for other characters, like varian, vol'jin, thrall, jaina, even sylvanas.

the devs themselves told us he was a foil, and was never made to last as warchief.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 04:11 AM ----------

I support Garrosh because he supports full out war with the alliance until they are all dead, I would be willing to sacrifice everything to kill as much alliance as possible, so I don't really care what else Garrosh does.

I don't want another pansy loser like Thrall to want to end hostilities with the filthy alliance.

and then you'd have no opposing faction and then no pvp would exist.

Yours is the worst kind of extreme. You love war, thats all well and good, but if you want to wipe out one side, your not have anything to war over.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 04:14 AM ----------

Oh God, I am already prepared to use Caps lock to its full extent when dealing with Sylvanas fans...

*Durrrr, sylvanas has boobies, dat makes her a good leader, durrr*
Tell me this isn't like 80% of all reasoning behind those who like sylvanas

[ManjiSanji]

See now, I respect peoples opinions, when they have something intelligent to say about it, and this is an example. End of the day, Garrosh is a plot device, more then a well rounded character like the others. How else would you explain this so called change in personality, unless it was done to draw out the story and have him become a foil for other characters, like varian, vol'jin, thrall, jaina, even sylvanas.

Well, this is a welcome change.

I'm glad you've finally caught on to the arguments I've made to you more times than I care to remember.

Also, I would explain his erratic change in personality as a writing staff who had no idea what they direction they really wanted to take a character. As somebody who writes myself, I found Garrosh's nigh-dissociative identity disorder changes in personality appropriately maddening. The changes could not be explained by an intended story direction by the writers, but only by any of three things:

1: Incompetence and lack of consistency on the part of the writers
2: Too many cooks in the kitchen
3: Attempted damage control in response to player opinion

Honestly, looking back, I'd say it was all three.

[Thimagryn]

1: Incompetence and lack of consistency on the part of the writers
2: Too many cooks in the kitchen
3: Attempted damage control in response to player opinion

Honestly, looking back, I'd say it was all three.

This.

I've always disliked Garrosh as a character since they decided to make him Warchief. They somewhat redeemed him in Cataclysm and with the Shattering novel, but he still wasn't an interesting character. The decision to make him the big bad was a very confused move. Sure, it was a step in putting an end to a bad character, but it also made everything leading up to it very disjointed.

I'm just happy they're ending his story. They made a mess of his character, it's time to move on.

[Verdugo]

*Durrrr, sylvanas has boobies, dat makes her a good leader, durrr*
Tell me this isn't like 80% of all reasoning behind those who like sylvanas

No it isnt, are you ignoring everything outside your own bubble again? Thats the argument used by bunch of mysantropic paladins that cant handle that their assess are handed to them by bunch of corpses.

[Okacz]

Again absurd favoritism, marking the whole fact as a "good point" for Garrosh when he acted as an arrogant douchebag for the entire conversation, already abusing his power to bash people that said things that weren't of his liking. And you think that Garrosh has been "merciful" to not kill a second Horde leader after Cairne, this time with no excuses to back it up, just for some irritated words that he had a huge responsibility in incite them?

Well, you made some good points there, but I simply cannot just not disagree with this one.

The Vol'Jin - Garrosh conversation is an obvious Blizzards attempt to add something to the Vol'Jin character. Seriously, he gained 300% more dialogue after that. The interesting thing is how he acted during the conversation.

Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: Don't talk back to me, troll. You know who was left in charge here. Haven't you stopped to ask yourself why Thrall chose me instead of you?
Vol'jin's image appears.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Dere be no question why, Garrosh. He gave ya tha title because ya be Grom's Son and because tha people be wantin' a war hero.
Vision of Vol'jin says: I tink ya be more like ya father den he thought, even without da demon blood.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You are lucky that I don't gut you right here, whelp. You are foolish to think you can speak to your Warchief in such ways.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya not earned my respect. And I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: And what exactly do you think that you're going to do about it? Your threats are hollow. Go slink away with the rest of your kind in the slums. I will endure your filth in my throne room no longer.
Vision of Vol'jin says: I know exactly what I'll be doin' about it, son of Hellscream. I'll watch and wait as ya people slowly become aware of ya ineptitude. I'll laugh as dey grow ta despise ya as I do.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And when tha time comes dat ya failure is complete and ya "power" is meaningless, I will be dere to end ya rule swiftly and silently.
Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya will spend ya reign glancin' over ya shoulda and fearin' tha shadows, for when tha time comes and ya blood be slowly drainin' out, ya will know exactly who fired da arrow dat pierced ya black heart.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You have sealed your fate, troll.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream spits at Vol'jin's feet.
Vision of Vol'jin says: And you yours, "Warchief".

Garrosh acted like, well, Garrosh. He was always hot-headed, simple minded and harsh, he doesn't take shit from anyone. Check Vol'Jin. After a long argument we never see, he decides to insult Garrosh directly about his lineage (as we remember, the soft spot of Garrosh), openly declare that, besides the fact Thrall trusted him in advising Garrosh he is not willing to take that responsibility, that he does not accept Thralls decision - and in the end, openly threatens his life, openly declares himself the personal enemy of Garrosh. By the way, it's wise to remind that they are allies.

Many people tend to forget about another fact connected with the conversation. During a dialogue with Thrall, Vol'Jin openly admited he was a bit too rash and hot-headed and apologised to Thrall, who had to explain to him the idea of choosing Garrosh as the Warchief. And has also agreed that his approach to the Warchief was wrong.

I'm not saying that Vol'Jin is the villian here, that would be stupid. Despite the fact I don't like Vol'Jin, this conversation showed that it's more complicated than "bad guy vs good guy". Garrosh had his rights and Vol'Jin had his, and the problem was that they could not come to the mutual understanding. But the problem is, the majority of playerbase accepted this conversation to be Vol'Jin being oppressed by Garrosh the Big Meanie, and then thrown out of the city for racist reasons. You can't, you just can't ignore the fact that Vol'Jin made a few serious mistakes during the conversation, mistakes he later admitted.

Oh wait. You can, because right now we do have "bad guy vs good guy". See - this is what I call a retcon. Small one, compared to some other stuff in MoP, but still one that hurts.

[Deleted]

So... basically no bad ending allowed?

[Duncanîdaho]

To me Garrosh has always been the extension of what Grom was without the legion around to focus on. Grom, ignoring all the horribly violent and brutal things he had done prior to WC3, was still one bad dude.

-Grom attacked Alliance against the Warchief's order and restarted the Alliance/Horde conflict on Kalimdor for the first time. Forcing hundreds of needless deaths. Any other warchief next to Thrall would of head Grom's head at that point.
-Grom drank demon blood again and forced his clan to as well. After everything they already knew about it. Say what you want about Garrosh, he has not even crossed that line.
-Grom sparked a war with a savage warrior night elf race by mercilessly harvesting the wood of living ancients and their homes. Simply to speed up the wood gathering process. Thrall gave him the simple task of building a base and he managed to get a massive battle started where both sides lost a huge amount of forces. He could of tried to handle the situation diplomatically but he instead relished the chance at battle with these new interesting warriors.
-Grom Slew the night Elf Demi-god that they worshiped. Garrosh dug up the Vale.
-Thrall could never keep either contained, no matter how much he tried.

My point is that Grom was just as much a monster as Garrosh and if they ever had a conversation it would be a pissing contest of trying to one up each other with asshole things they've done and laughing about it. If KJ himself suddenly descended from orbit and a juiced up sha Garrosh died in glorious battle with KJ like Grom did with Mannoroth we would probably end up looking at Garrosh in the same way we now look at a Grom. There characters are very similar as much as people like to pretend they aren't. The only difference between them is Grom managed to just once direct his wrath where it needed to be at the right time when he cut down Mannoroth and freed the Orcs.

Personally I hate Garrosh and will not for a second try to say he is a good guy. But I do love what he does for the story and love to hate him. Just like how Grom made the Orc campaign so memorable in WC3. Hellscream's mix shit up and help put the story in a blender. Just when you think everything has calmed down a bit a Hellscream comes along and shit really hits the fan.

Also reading through this thread, it seems the OP it not as much directed at people that like Garrosh as a character like the title suggests. But more directed at people who think he makes a good Warchief and is an honorable Orc. It's very possible to like an asshole character, because of the fact they shake up the story.