Demands of the Alliance if they win ?

[Aquamonkey]

Yes, I still use the word Lordaeron for the Northern part of EK, but the political Lordaeron is nothing but history now.

It still exists for the Forsaken. They still identify themselves as citizens of Lordaeron and all the lands of that kingdom as being rightfully theirs.

[Acepox]

Troubled nostalgic beings... Nothing more to say. Even though I love the Forsaken, I hate the fact they can't recognize that.

[Mormolyce]

Yes, yes. I totally agree with you. Parts of Lordaeron that were Scourge before, now belong fully to the Forsaken. Silverpine, Tirisfal, and, my bad for adding Andorhal to the list. They won the battle, they have the right to it. But all the others in the list belong to the Alliance.
You lose your rights when you die in Azeroth too. There is no arguing that. Even in Azeroth, undeath is a new and unnatural thing.

Do you have some kind of map where you can show which parts of Lordaeron were and weren't affected by the Scourge? Because I'm pretty sure it was all of it. The map of WoW as of Vanilla onwards is not representative of how much the Scourge conquered.

How does Azeroth's legal code define death anyway? Which law covers the possession of property? Are any such laws even relevant anymore?

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Both arguments are somewhat valid, which is why there is much contention between both parties. Also, the Alliance don't recognize the Forsaken as a people/nation or their claim to any part of Lordaeron.

While it's fun to speculate on legal ownership, I don't think anyone in Azeroth really thinks of the Forsaken in Lordaeron as a legal matter, on either side.

[Viscoe]

How does Azeroth's legal code define death anyway? Which law covers the possession of property? Are any such laws even relevant anymore?

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While it's fun to speculate on legal ownership, I don't think anyone in Azeroth really thinks of the Forsaken in Lordaeron as a legal matter, on either side.

Like I said earlier, you do a ton of quests, or at least used to, where your job is to recover deeds from various people for various plots of land to "restore ownership to its proper owner." So if the deed is valid in the hands of Farmer Smith alive, then he dies and his neighbor takes the deed to his land and now owns it, and then Undead Farmer Smith kills his neighbor and takes his deed back, I think he owns it again, legally.

As to whether or not it's honored? I think that comes down to whomever can conquer the land. If the Forsaken want to own it and they defeat you in battle for it, then it's theirs. If the Alliance want it back and they go to war for it, and they lose, then it's still the Forsaken's.

So what it comes down to is, if, in the hypothetical world we're all drafting here, the Alliance tell the Forsaken, "Your Horde is beaten so give us back Lordaeron" and the Forsaken say no, do they win the war for the land or not? The rightful owners are the ones who conquer it, after all. That's how land is won in the real world anyway.

[Acepox]

You seem to be missing the point... Even if some place belonged to the Scourge at one point, it was not more Forsaken than Human territory. It would belong to whomever conquered it first. Forsaken had --- Well I gave you the list already.

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And no, I believe everyone acknowledges Tirisfal and Silverpine as Forsaken Territory.

[Viscoe]

But that's the thing, Ace.

The Forsaken have systematically marched through the land they now "own" and taken it for themselves. Who cares from which party? the fact is they conquered it. It makes it theirs.

[Dreknar20]

As to whether or not it's honored? I think that comes down to whomever can conquer the land. If the Forsaken want to own it and they defeat you in battle for it, then it's theirs. If the Alliance want it back and they go to war for it, and they lose, then it's still the Forsaken's.

Likewise
I always get a bit irked when people talk about "rights to land" in this topic

[Aquamonkey]

You seem to be missing the point... Even if some place belonged to the Scourge at one point, it was not more Forsaken than Human territory. It would belong to whomever conquered it first. Forsaken had --- Well I gave you the list already.

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And no, I believe everyone acknowledges Tirisfal and Silverpine as Forsaken Territory.

Not according to Sylvanas: "But the Alliance does not recognize our rights. They claim this land as their own while attempting to invalidate the claims of the founders of this kingdom. I will never allow it... Never! Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken - always and forever."

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Likewise
I always get a bit irked when people talk about "rights to land" in this topic

Just going by the lore, where they talk about "rights to land".

[Mormolyce]

Like I said earlier, you do a ton of quests, or at least used to, where your job is to recover deeds from various people for various plots of land to "restore ownership to its proper owner." So if the deed is valid in the hands of Farmer Smith alive, then he dies and his neighbor takes the deed to his land and now owns it, and then Undead Farmer Smith kills his neighbor and takes his deed back, I think he owns it again, legally.

As to whether or not it's honored? I think that comes down to whomever can conquer the land. If the Forsaken want to own it and they defeat you in battle for it, then it's theirs. If the Alliance want it back and they go to war for it, and they lose, then it's still the Forsaken's.

So what it comes down to is, if, in the hypothetical world we're all drafting here, the Alliance tell the Forsaken, "Your Horde is beaten so give us back Lordaeron" and the Forsaken say no, do they win the war for the land or not? The rightful owners are the ones who conquer it, after all. That's how land is won in the real world anyway.

Yep pretty much. Might is real, right is hypothetical.

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You seem to be missing the point... Even if some place belonged to the Scourge at one point, it was not more Forsaken than Human territory. It would belong to whomever conquered it first. Forsaken had --- Well I gave you the list already.

And no, I believe everyone acknowledges Tirisfal and Silverpine as Forsaken Territory.

I don't know what you're saying really, the Forsaken ARE Human. At least the Forsaken of Lordaeron are. Who conquered it first? It's not first in first served. But if it was, well the ancestors of the current Forsaken conquered it first. They are also the ancestors of some of the living refugees from Lordaeron.

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Just going by the lore, where they talk about "rights to land".

I think lore just reflects real life there.

Rights to land are just as silly in the real world :P

[Acepox]

Can we all agree Tirisfal and Silverpine will always remain Forsaken in the near future(until WoW ends) and stop giving a fuck about land rights? :P

[Viscoe]

I'm not just talking about Tirisfal and Silverpine, I'm talking about what most of the people who want land back are talking about - that is to say, all of Lordaeron. Hillsbrad and Arathi especially. Places the Forsaken have conquered with military might, and therefore own.

[Acepox]

Also, getting back on topic! I don't think the Alliance would destroy all of the Horde's war machine. They are probably all paranoids by now, in Azeroth, after the Burning Legion, the Lich King, Deathwing and now Garrosh. The Alliance will need an ally when the next great evil strikes.

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I'm not just talking about Tirisfal and Silverpine, I'm talking about what most of the people who want land back are talking about - that is to say, all of Lordaeron. Hillsbrad and Arathi especially. Places the Forsaken have conquered with military might, and therefore own.

Yeah, but we were talking about land rights in a sense that, if the Alliance has any honor, they won't just go and destroy any race's home. Just like the Horde wouldn't attack Stormwind without a fucking good reason.(a reason such as Garrosh)
But what would they attack, such as Tarren mill? Andorhal?
I don't know if you get my meaning?

[Viscoe]

Ah, okay, my bad.

Anyway.

I don't think there are any super realistic things to demand of the Horde other than "Stop orcish aggression around the top end of Kalimdor." Because that's really where Garrosh's actions had any resounding effect (Other than, of course, Pandaria and Theramore.)

I could see them pulling a do-over on Ashenvale. But then they'd also have to completely redesign Stonetalon as well. I don't know if they'd want to reconstruct two full questing zones.

[Acepox]

The Alliance won't need Southern Barrens if the Horde pulls out of Stonetalon and Ashenvale... Even though there's barely anything left in Stonetalon... 60% razed by shredders, 10% burned by... what, exactly? I always went on through with Southern Barrens with my NE and Worgens from there... Dunno what's south.
Another 10% Bombed by Krom'gar.
Only 10% left of minor night elven sanctuary-villages.

[Dreknar20]

Yeah, but we were talking about land rights in a sense that, if the Alliance has any honor, they won't just go and destroy any race's home.

people dont generally give a fuck about the welfare of their enemies, people they hate and despise

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The Alliance won't need Southern Barrens if the Horde pulls out of Stonetalon and Ashenvale...

The Horde has had settlements and outposts in both those zones since Vanilla

[leaks]

Hah! Make another demand, princeling, and I'll release your head from your shoulders!

[Acepox]

Hmm... So why isn't Jaina flooding Undercity and Varian ordering the Skybreaker to drop its nuke at the base of Thunder Bluff, then? Maybe because they wish for one day have peace, so that'd be nice that they don't screw up any chance at it.

[Viscoe]

The Alliance won't need Southern Barrens if the Horde pulls out of Stonetalon and Ashenvale... Even though there's barely anything left in Stonetalon... 60% razed by shredders, 10% burned by... what, exactly? I always went on through with Southern Barrens with my NE and Worgens from there... Dunno what's south.
Another 10% Bombed by Krom'gar.
Only 10% left of minor night elven sanctuary-villages.

Horde will NEVER pull out of Stonetalon. It's important land to the Tauren. Ancestral hunting grounds.

Also, the Horde need to keep an eye on those damn Grimtotem. We know the Alliance won't, because, well... :T

As for Ashenvale, you can have the damn place. I've never liked it. Too many hills and ridges to make for smooth questing. xD

Edit: According to WoWwiki, both factions utilized Stonetalon for lumber, and...

The Charred Vale is a large valley once filled with life but now lies mostly in flames and lava in the southwest section of the Stonetalon Mountains. The exact name of the place prior to being charred is unknown, but it was here that Bloodfury harpies called their home and treants roamed the area to protect their forest.

Thanks to the efforts of the adventurers and the druids of Sun Rock Retreat the forest had started to regrow once more. After a few years the once beautiful forest was green again, that was until the Shattering. A nearby dormant volcano erupted, spewing out lava into the vale where it destroyed half the area and opened a path to the Veiled Sea. Since most of the harpy population was on the western part of this vale, they were likely killed off, except for those that managed to escape in time. The only known survivor known is Sister Riven.

In the destruction's wake are Black Dragon Whelps, Fissure-born Fire Elementals and Black Drakes under the leadership of Seldarria.

[Acepox]

HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Charred Vale story! How ironic. xD
Well, I believe Tauren and Night Elves can get along well. As for Orcs and Goblins, they have to go.
Dwarves and Humans will go away too since they're only here to militarily support the Night elves. If they don't have any battles to fight, they'll just leave a token outpost and that's it. The Alliance needs its army at - To be concluded in the next expansion -

[Myrandron]

Pull out of Ashenvale post haste, same with Gilneas, pull out of the rest of the places they forced their way into during the events of Cataclysm and kind of start putting things back the way they were before everything went to hell.

As for Lordaeron they aren't getting that back without any more conflict, its a capital of the horde and an entire city devoted to one of it's races not to mention how close it is to Silvermoon, so that's out of the question.

Some sort of recompensation for the events of Theramore and kind of those responsible that haven't already been put to justice put to justice, along with some of the bigger kind of war criminals that did sort of unspeakable things willingly under the command of Garrosh.

I can't really see them demanding much more than their rightful land and justice for the acts committed against them during the events of the rising war.