The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

[Duronos]

there's millions of people that work hard and fill necessary roles in our society. they don't make millions. they get paid poorly for doing jobs that have to be done.

they deserve more money a lot more than a pro athlete or big name musician. or many other positions in life that rake in the money without really deserving such amounts.

You do realize the amount of training and skill it requires to become a pro athlete right? It's not like you can pick up anyone and put them on a team. Pro athletes get paid well because they are elite at their sport, the best of the best and people pay to see them.

Example is that people who work in a normal store require maybe a couple days of training to learn the job right? Well it takes years to learn how to play a sport to the best level.

[Catta]

Honestly, I'd say you need to view it from a personal standpoint. Go through your local bad part of town, there is a reason they don't escape, it's because they don't care in the first place.

I dont have a local bad part of town...

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Perhaps you should go google the following phrase - "black man who was homeless became a millionaire" - not only will you get the story that I'm referring to but you'll also find many other stories of people who've been in abject poverty and are now millionaires. They did not become millionaires because the government gave them lots of hand outs, they did it because they had a vision and found a way.

With the exception of the men and women whom are limited mentally or physically there is no reason why someone who's poor can not become middle class if they so choose. It takes work, it takes time but it is 100% possible.

I frankly think people who whine about class differences or rich people getting richer are lazy and angry that they can not get a hand out. Wealthy isn't an entitlement and as an adult in the United States you are 100% free to make choices for yourself which can elevate your financial position in life. It isn't the governments or your neighbors responsibility to do that for you, it is YOURS.

Do you think its possible that the welfare allowed them to survive while homeless...?

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You do realize the amount of training and skill it requires to become a pro athlete right? It's not like you can pick up anyone and put them on a team. Pro athletes get paid well because they are elite at their sport, the best of the best and people pay to see them.

Example is that people who work in a normal store require maybe a couple days of training to learn the job right? Well it takes years to learn how to play a sport to the best level.

The keyword would be "necessary roles"

[Fugus]

To Aang, you are looking at people who gave up, that didn't mean they didn't care. For many of them, they just gave up trying, not all of them, but to many.

How many times do you get knocked flat on your face and kicked in the stomach for trying do you have to go through before you just quit trying? How many times do you have to try and lose EVERYTHING before you quit and mainly just focus and keeping what you already have. I have seen plenty who tried over and over and over and over again, eventually you give up on trying to make it and try just to keep from losing what you already have AGAIN.

Sorry but to say they are poor cause they are lazy is just plain ignorant on your part to the HUGE portion of the people you are talking about.

And you honestly believe an entertainer deserves millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars but the guy who does 100% REQUIRED jobs should make less than is needed to survive just because another can be trained to do it as well? What makes me feel bad is we have so many short sighted people thinking that running things. Honestly wish the ones doing the required stuff just stopped doing them and no one would be willing to do them until they paid what they SHOULD pay, not just what someone who doesn't want to pay what it is worth thinks he can get away with.

[Duronos]

To Aang, you are looking at people who gave up, that didn't mean they didn't care. For many of them, they just gave up trying, not all of them, but to many.

How many times do you get knocked flat on your face and kicked in the stomach for trying do you have to go through before you just quit trying? How many times do you have to try and lose EVERYTHING before you quit and mainly just focus and keeping what you already have. I have seen plenty who tried over and over and over and over again, eventually you give up on trying to make it and try just to keep from losing what you already have AGAIN.

Sorry but to say they are poor cause they are lazy is just plain ignorant on your part to the HUGE portion of the people you are talking about.

And you honestly believe an entertainer deserves millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars but the guy who does 100% REQUIRED jobs should make less than is needed to survive just because another can be trained to do it as well? What makes me feel bad is we have so many short sighted people thinking that running things. Honestly wish the ones doing the required stuff just stopped doing them and no one would be willing to do them until they paid what they SHOULD pay, not just what someone who doesn't want to pay what it is worth thinks he can get away with.

Everything is technically "required".

Also, I do know the feeling of falling flat on my face, everyone does. The strong ones persevere.

[Fugus]

Everything is technically "required".

Also, I do know the feeling of falling flat on my face, everyone does. The strong ones persevere.

Not everything is required, TV stars aren't required, Sports Super Stars aren't required.

The person who takes out your trash, the person who teaches your children, the doctor who keeps you healthy, the police officer who (is supposed to anyways) protect you, the ARE required and none of them should be paid a substandard pay yet we have trash men making less than $10 an hour, we have teachers putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks making less than 50k and we have police officers who make $400 per week.

And you are correct, the strong persevere, the stupid persevere even when they know it costs them everything and is almost guaranteed to fail. How many time do you lose your house and everything you own trying to get ahead before you stop trying to and work on just keeping what you have and inch forward to at least make a meager existence?

I personally have ran a business for four years running 60 hour weeks every week with only 1 vacation and that was to see my mother while still helped my friend I was running it with over the phone while I was gone, it went down and I was stuck moving in with family, I moved out of town looking for work and after a year I ended up moving in with family again with nothing except then I was actually 2 inches shorter for malnutrition (Lived off 1 meal every 3 days for somewhere between 6 to 9 months) trying to "persevere" and hope it worked out.

How many times are you supposed to lose everything and rely on others to get back on your feet trying to persevere before you quit and try to at least keep something? And if you are talking about having enough so you don't have to do that, then you are Middle class and practically in the top 20% of the nation anyways and if you are actually starting from the bottom, you don't have the funds to hold back on it so you are either all in or not even trying.

[Deleted]

The fact that federalism is so present precludes a concerted effort to marginalize poverty.

Localized power isn't the problem. Lack of jobs is. If you want less poverty then you need a bigger private sector.

That would require the country to produce more.

[Grummgug]

The class you're born into will most likely be the class you die in. That's just reality.

I'm sure someone can point to a guy say "what about this guy". All I can say is good for that guy. Behind him are thousands that wont make the same wealth movement.

Most people lack the required amount of self-discipline to succeed. That means that most people will never advance from poverty to being wealthy. That doesn't mean the American dream doesn't exist.

There's even plenty of stories of athletes and entertainers who earn a lot of money from being in the major leagues or having a hit record, that wind up going bankrupt because they lacked the self-discipline to just maintain the wealth when they got it. They blow it all on fancy cars, big homes, a posse, and next they know they are broke again. Look at MC hammer or Allen Inverson who blew an entire $154 million fortune because he had zero self-discipline.

[Fugus]

Most people lack the required amount of self-discipline to succeed. That means that most people will never advance from poverty to being wealthy. That doesn't mean the American dream doesn't exist.

There's even plenty of stories of athletes and entertainers who earn a lot of money from being in the major leagues or having a hit record, that wind up going bankrupt because they lacked the self-discipline to just maintain the wealth when they got it. They blow it all on fancy cars, big homes, a posse, and next they know they are broke again. Look at MC hammer or Allen Inverson who blew an entire $154 million fortune because he had zero self-discipline.

And for every one of them, there are 10,000 others who struggled and tried harder and smarter than the current top 50 richest and ended up getting nowhere if not digging their graves deeper due to bad luck and the odds stacked against them and the penalties for failing when that broke being so high.

[Grummgug]

And for every one of them, there are 10,000 others who struggled and tried harder and smarter than the current top 50 richest and ended up getting nowhere if not digging their graves deeper due to bad luck and the odds stacked against them and the penalties for failing when that broke being so high.

But success isn't about how hard you try, or how smart you are. Its about self-discipline.

But you are correct that the majority won't succeed. But that's because most lack self-discipline.

We currently have an entire CULTURE dedicated to luring people into being wild and reckless. We think its COOL or throw wild parties, get tattoos, get drunk and/or high every weekend, and get nowhere. There is actually peer pressure today pushing people away from intellectual pursuits. If you try to discuss highbrow topics with the average person, you will get ostracized.

That's what you're up against. Society is actively working against you from succeeding now. So hell yes its hard. But with self-discipline, you can overcome these obstacles.

You try to hit the books, educate yourself, save money, build a business, if you have a passion for that, people will look at you like you are one strange, bizarre person. Who is this person? Trying to get ahead in life? WHO DOES THAT?????????? I'm gonna go out and get drunk again, maaaaaan. Get this loser who doesn't party away from me!!!!

[Fugus]

But success isn't about how hard you try, or how smart you are. Its about self-discipline.

But you are correct that the majority won't succeed. But that's because most lack self-discipline.

We currently have an entire CULTURE dedicated to luring people into being wild and reckless. We think its COOL or throw wild parties, get tattoos, get drunk and/or high every weekend, and get nowhere. There is actually peer pressure today pushing people away from intellectual pursuits. If you try to discuss highbrow topics with the average person, you will get ostracized.

That's what you're up against. Society is actively working against you from succeeding now. So hell yes its hard. But with self-discipline, you can overcome these obstacles.

You try to hit the books, educate yourself, save money, build a business, if you have a passion for that, people will look at you like you are one strange, bizarre person. Who is this person? Trying to get ahead in life? WHO DOES THAT?????????? I'm gonna go out and get drunk again, maaaaaan. Get this loser who doesn't party away from me!!!!

I lumped in Self-Disciplined with Smart but I will rephrase it then.

For ever 1 of the guys you mentioned, there are about 10,000 more who tried and failed who worked smarter, harder and were more disciplined than any of the top 50 richest.

And to be honest, if you look at the wealthy nowadays, they are the opposite of disciplined as many spend with reckless abandon as they have reached a financial critical mass where their money makes money faster than they can even spend it.

You can't overcome everything with self-discipline. When the odds are stacked against you where you can work harder, smarter and more disciplined than them and STILL fail without a blessing of luck from god himself, then there are problems and that is what we have today.

The ONLY ones I have seen try and succeed nowadays have either been extremely lucky, as in 1 in a billion odds on many things just falling into place in ways they couldn't even predict, they were funding it with illegal means, or they were so rich and connected that they could just plug at it forever if they wanted and make it work without ever worrying of running out of cash (this also lumped in with illegally funded most times).

And who are them people trying to get ahead in life? Many of them are homeless as their attempts failed and they kept trying anyways or just barely making it paycheck to paycheck, many gave up and now make a meager existence and for every 500 million of them, 1 succeeded, and most of them did it with the help of rich and connected others or they were themselves.

Edit: You are talking to a guy who tried, educated themselves and kept myself in check and ran a company for 4 years. I lost everything twice trying to get myself established, I used to be 6 foot 1, now I am 5'11 from malnutrition almost killing me from lack of money. I worked 60 hours per week and many times handled work from home running a shop that dealt with electronics and electrical repairs, we bought, sold, traded and repaired. We even had the local Gamestops, Best Buys and a few other places who sent stuff to us to fix, we even had the Best Buy sending people with computer problems they couldn't solve to us for repair.

I am a high school graduate with 2 years of college, I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do any drugs and the only reason I don't have more college under my belt is I can't afford to and my father made too much from Medical Disability growing up to get any grants or anything even though I couldn't touch it.

[Grummgug]

I lumped in Self-Disciplined with Smart but I will rephrase it then.

For ever 1 of the guys you mentioned, there are about 10,000 more who tried and failed who worked smarter, harder and were more disciplined than any of the top 50 richest.

Ok, this is incorrect and scientists have done hard studies proving otherwise. If you have self-discipline, you WILL be successful. Your strong assertion saying otherwise does not override scientific study.

I need to send you back to this video.
http://www.ted.com/talks/joachim_de_...allow_yet.html

[Grym]

The keyword would be "necessary roles"

It doesn't matter that they are "necessary roles", most of these "necessary roles" do not require much training, therefore very easily replaced in the available work force. When many people can do these jobs, they won't get paid well.

One of the factor that boost the pay of the role is "rarity of the skill required", if you have some qualification that deemed rare (CFA for example), money will be flowing into your pocket. And "rarity of skill" is not usually required for those "necessary roles", so their pay stays low unfortunately.

Pro athletes, takes A LOT of training and talents, therefore their skills are qualified as "rare". What they do might not be necessary, but if people are willing to pay to see them, they will make money.

Pretty much just a Supply and Demand of skill.

[Locruid]

Not everything is required, TV stars aren't required, Sports Super Stars aren't required.

The person who takes out your trash, the person who teaches your children, the doctor who keeps you healthy, the police officer who (is supposed to anyways) protect you, the ARE required and none of them should be paid a substandard pay yet we have trash men making less than $10 an hour, we have teachers putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks making less than 50k and we have police officers who make $400 per week.

And you are correct, the strong persevere, the stupid persevere even when they know it costs them everything and is almost guaranteed to fail. How many time do you lose your house and everything you own trying to get ahead before you stop trying to and work on just keeping what you have and inch forward to at least make a meager existence?

I personally have ran a business for four years running 60 hour weeks every week with only 1 vacation and that was to see my mother while still helped my friend I was running it with over the phone while I was gone, it went down and I was stuck moving in with family, I moved out of town looking for work and after a year I ended up moving in with family again with nothing except then I was actually 2 inches shorter for malnutrition (Lived off 1 meal every 3 days for somewhere between 6 to 9 months) trying to "persevere" and hope it worked out.

How many times are you supposed to lose everything and rely on others to get back on your feet trying to persevere before you quit and try to at least keep something? And if you are talking about having enough so you don't have to do that, then you are Middle class and practically in the top 20% of the nation anyways and if you are actually starting from the bottom, you don't have the funds to hold back on it so you are either all in or not even trying.

TOTALLY agree. The "rich" and "Well to do" say it's our fault for being poor. but who's gonna pump the gas if EVERYONE is working high class jobs? Who's gonna sell the milk in the store? Fix the car when it breaks? Take the kids TO school in a big yellow bus? My Father was a Maintenance Supervisor in the 80's-90's. He made decent money. We never wanted for anything, had a good place to live, had 2 vehicles that were somewhat less than 6 yrs old. Had a boat, great healthcare, and was able to take vacations and such. The SAME EXACT job today in the SAME EXACT Place pays enough money to barely sustain a single person. Once Utilities/rent/insurance/gas/food is all paid and you OWN your 20 yr old Honda you barely got enough money to rent a movie for the weekend.
The problem is the wage of the Blue Collar working man has not risen significantly to compensate for the material costs. Rent has gone up 100%-200% since the 90's. Gas has almost gone up ALMOST 200% since the 90's. Utilities have doubled. Car Insurance has become mandatory. Car costs have doubled. Medical has grown 400% for the same amount of same care since the 90's. And that wage my Father earned in the 90's compared to now has grown 25%-30%.
Meanwhile the income of "executives" and CEOS have increased 1000% and Higher. In the 90's Movie Stars were flabbergasted that one particular at the height of her career managed to talk her way into $5 million for the movie. EVERYONE was like HOLY HELL. Now we have RDJ pulling TEN TIMES that. Meanwhile Federal minimum wage has increased 45%........

[Catta]

But success isn't about how hard you try, or how smart you are. Its about self-discipline.

But you are correct that the majority won't succeed. But that's because most lack self-discipline.

We currently have an entire CULTURE dedicated to luring people into being wild and reckless. We think its COOL or throw wild parties, get tattoos, get drunk and/or high every weekend, and get nowhere. There is actually peer pressure today pushing people away from intellectual pursuits. If you try to discuss highbrow topics with the average person, you will get ostracized.

That's what you're up against. Society is actively working against you from succeeding now. So hell yes its hard. But with self-discipline, you can overcome these obstacles.

You try to hit the books, educate yourself, save money, build a business, if you have a passion for that, people will look at you like you are one strange, bizarre person. Who is this person? Trying to get ahead in life? WHO DOES THAT?????????? I'm gonna go out and get drunk again, maaaaaan. Get this loser who doesn't party away from me!!!!

What drugs are you taking. They seem potent...

[Duronos]

Not everything is required, TV stars aren't required, Sports Super Stars aren't required.

The person who takes out your trash, the person who teaches your children, the doctor who keeps you healthy, the police officer who (is supposed to anyways) protect you, the ARE required and none of them should be paid a substandard pay yet we have trash men making less than $10 an hour, we have teachers putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks making less than 50k and we have police officers who make $400 per week.

And you are correct, the strong persevere, the stupid persevere even when they know it costs them everything and is almost guaranteed to fail. How many time do you lose your house and everything you own trying to get ahead before you stop trying to and work on just keeping what you have and inch forward to at least make a meager existence?

I personally have ran a business for four years running 60 hour weeks every week with only 1 vacation and that was to see my mother while still helped my friend I was running it with over the phone while I was gone, it went down and I was stuck moving in with family, I moved out of town looking for work and after a year I ended up moving in with family again with nothing except then I was actually 2 inches shorter for malnutrition (Lived off 1 meal every 3 days for somewhere between 6 to 9 months) trying to "persevere" and hope it worked out.

How many times are you supposed to lose everything and rely on others to get back on your feet trying to persevere before you quit and try to at least keep something? And if you are talking about having enough so you don't have to do that, then you are Middle class and practically in the top 20% of the nation anyways and if you are actually starting from the bottom, you don't have the funds to hold back on it so you are either all in or not even trying.

I understand you honestly, it must suck having nothing anymore. All I was saying is this that sports stars put years of training in when they were younger and the payoff is playing at a pro level and lets face it, entertainment has a huge market and people pay lots of money to see it. What I'm saying is that it takes an extremely good player at any specific sport to make pro level and if they do then fair enough if they get paid loads, people will watch them and pay to see them.

Entertainment is a weird industry because it's the one that you could technically say it isn't "required" but everyone wants to chill out sometimes and watch others entertain them. Think of a king watching a jester, now that's entertainment.

[Eroginous]

But don't ever think money defines the "success" of your life. You don't get to take it with you.

Nope, but you need money to have even a decent quality of life while you're here. Money for a place to live, food to eat, clothes on your back, stuff to entertain you, and transportation to/from your source of money. If you have too little money, you can't sustain a decent quality of living, despite how happy you are at waking up every morning to a new day.

I'm glad life is an adventure for you. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I've gone roughly 200k SEK plus on my largest investment portfolio. 209.030 SEK to be exact. Which is $31671 by todays exchange rate. All accounts together it's closer to half a million SEK, plus. I'm not likely to end up being a billionare but what you wrote is a something I disagree with.

Anyways I think it was a bit easier back in the day, my great grandpa moved from home as a 14 year old and worked as a stonemason, he was dirt poor, saved every copper he earned and when he passed away he left quite a bit of land for my grandfather to inherit... which is now worth a shitload, he was not a genius, he just possessed some common sense and he worked hard and as a result he left quite a lot behind for his children(eventhough 3 of his oldest emigrated to the US).

There was once a time in the US where all you needed to do was stake a claim to a piece of land, put in some hard work to develop it and build a house, and you could leave it for your future generations to then take that land and sell it for a small fortune.

Those days are long gone. If you buy a piece of land now, put a house on it, and then hang on to it for future generations, you are going to be in debt for the next 30+ years. The chances of you leaving it to your kids without owing on it still, are slim to none, especially if you are just a blue collar worker. The problem with all these people saying 'all you have to do is work hard and you'll get ahead' is they don't understand basic math.

There are a finite number of jobs in this country, a finite number of ways to generate a sustainable income. You've got those people who will work their asses off and get their dream job and never have to worry about poverty. Then you've got the vast majority of Americans who will never have a chance at fulfilling their dream job, no matter how hard they work or how much time they put in on their education.

Why, you ask? Opportunity (or lack thereof). If you have a job where you make 100k a year, it's because that job was available at the time you were looking for it and someone decided that you, of all people, deserved it more than the other people who applied for it. The very reason why most people don't have a job making 100k or more in a year is because most jobs available don't pay 100k a year.

The reason why most people will struggle making 1-2x minimum wage is because that's what most jobs pay. I'm sorry, but you don't get to pretend like 100k a year jobs just grow on trees waiting for everyone to get their shit together so they can get one.

Why else do you think so many college grads are being forced to work in places like McDonald's or Walmart? The statistics clearly show there's a problem.

Why would a millionaire create jobs when he can just go sit on his yacht, collecting more money?

[Deleted]

How is your millionaire able to collect money while sitting on his yacht? Are you saying his capital is used to employ resources such as labor to generate profit for him?
One could think that investing money and getting interest in return creates and maintains jobs.

relevant:

[Eroginous]

How is your millionaire able to collect money while sitting on his yacht? Are you saying his capital is used to employ resources such as labor to generate profit for him?
One could think that investing money and getting interest in return creates and maintains jobs.

relevant:

There's a dramatic difference between investing your money into stocks/loans, living off the interest, and taking the money you have and creating jobs. The stock market itself is giant organized crime ring, where unwitting investors get taken for a ride, and the big cat investors reap billions from the losses. You can't even begin to compare the stock market to legitimate labor.

[Wafffles]

If you can make other people money, you are much more likely to make money for yourself too. Athletes get paid millions and millions of dollars because they bring millions of dollars in merchandise sales, ticket sales, viewers for ad revenue, etc. to their teams. Celebrities get paid millions because they bring prestige to the movie or music they are a part of and publicity to products they endorse. A brilliant mathematician, engineer, scientist, etc. will defiinitely live well (if not as well as the celebrities) because he can develop products for companies, device new processes for medicine or energy, or bring that prestige/publicity again, this time to universities.

This all isn't to say that 'untalented' people, or people with unprofitable talents, somehow 'deserve' to be poor, merely that it's easy to see why certain people seem to be 'kept down': because they offer no monetary incentive to anyone who could 'help them up', through charity or otherwise.

[Zangeiti]

Problem poor***?

I don't believe it at all. just get off your arse and stop working at mc donalds and try to become something instead. the road to succes is fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail succes.

and stop wanting it instant like winning in lotto.

no offense meant.

you know buy putting ' no offense meant ' dosent mean its less offensive then not putting ' No offense meant '