Passive slice and dice!

[Warstar]

There's a more in-depth discussion of the upcoming gear system in another thread; please don't bleed it over.

I'm not pleased by the SnD change. I don't see making it passive as an improvement in any way... nerfing it and redistributing the damage away from auto-attacks is what we've been pushing for. Shifting more CPs to envenom/evis but maintaining the same auto-attack damage (both normalized down for the free SnD) does not improve our QoL for play really at all.

They won't take away rogue passive damage. Runs the risk of rogues becoming too bursty which will then get us nerfed faster than a red headed step child gets a beating. We had burst back in the day and ever since then the entire game has been changed to prevent something similar from happening and more and more of our damage goes into passives.

Think about the consequences of having more damage moved out from auto attack damage and into our abilities. Sub rogues are arguable one of the highest burst on demand on a short CD specs in the game. Granted it'd be fun to run around killing people in a shadow dance but realistically the tears of rage from the rest of the community will drown the entire rogue class out of the game. Hell even combat would cause some rage with adrenaline rush becoming hugely op if most of our damage was in specials.

If pvp wasn't a factor in this game I'd agree with you 100% and think that special attacks should be flashy and flavorful. But, pvp balance is a slap in the face to fun.

[Kryptomaniac]

The best part about all this are they are just placeholder examples that may not even stick. I love how everyone is all woohoo no more slice and dice for mut, and theres a good chance thats not even the change.

They said specifically they didn't work out the details and they were just ideas and examples. Nothing concrete. Don't know why people are over thinking this.

[Sesshou]

Im a little disappointed they even bothered to make slice and dice passive. They should have just baked a speed buff into envenom, that would feel more exciting, at least then your attack speed would vary.

That would be a far better plan. Instead of making the spec easier (even if only slightly), it makes it more complex because failing to manage your envenom buff would have a much larger consequence where as now its pretty trivial.

[Deleted]

That would be a far better plan. Instead of making the spec easier (even if only slightly), it makes it more complex because failing to manage your envenom buff would have a much larger consequence where as now its pretty trivial.

The lvl 100 talent that gives you cp on whitehit crits will make it probably the more interesting as you will have to watch energy+rng cp gains for max dps unless anticipation works for them.

[Sesshou]

The lvl 100 talent that gives you cp on whitehit crits will make it probably the more interesting as you will have to watch energy+rng cp gains for max dps unless anticipation works for them.

Why wouldn't anticipation work for them? It works for HAT, SF, RvS, and Ruthlessness (if you don't have 10 when you use your finisher).

[Deleted]

Why wouldn't anticipation work for them? It works for HAT, SF, RvS, and Ruthlessness (if you don't have 10 when you use your finisher).

Simply as a design decision to make it more interesting. You will likely be right though.

[Sesshou]

Simply as a design decision to make it more interesting. You will likely be right though.

You want an interesting design decision? Remove anticipation and fix the cp system so it doesn't essentially require you to take a talent that bandaids it. It worked fine back in vanilla without overflow when the most you could get (aside from openers) was 2cp if you crit and took SF. Now when you can get 4 cp of a single ability, its pretty dumb.

[Lesane]

You want an interesting design decision? Remove anticipation and fix the cp system so it doesn't essentially require you to take a talent that bandaids it. It worked fine back in vanilla without overflow when the most you could get (aside from openers) was 2cp if you crit and took SF. Now when you can get 4 cp of a single ability, its pretty dumb.

"Fixing" the CP system would most likely be answered by Anticipation regardless. Just look at Holy Power and Chi, you have a higher cap than what an ability can consume at it's max, allowing you to pool it. Getting 4 CP with a single ability makes it more fun since you get to use finishers more often and it adds a second resource you can pool. The main issue with Anticipation is that it's a talent and you're pretty much forced to take it to function properly.

[torment3d]

I enjoyed WotLK when you had to use Envenom at 4 OR 5 cp... made you actually have to watch what was going on and not just macro everything into a sequence and fall asleep.

[Deleted]

Not really sure what all the hype about adding SnD as passive is about. It's pretty much passive in it's current state.

What i WAS surprised to see was that Assassination actually has the spell at all, in the content that was available at blizzcon. I would not have been surprised if it was just removed as various people have mentioned as part of the 'redesign'. But to see that it is still there, and that there is also a talent which it's going to Buff it to the ying-yang (Master the Basics) is very interesting.

Either way - VERY excited about what we may get to pick up when leveling between 91-100.

[Dasani]

You guys need to chill out and stop whinning. It's simply one of the new leveling bonuses for leveling up from 90 to 100 because they didn't want to add new abilities when all the classes are heavily saturated with abilities as it is and already getting new talents. They just added these minor bonuses so you felt like you were getting something and being rewarded for leveling. That it is.

They aren't meant to be ultimate game changers or anything like that, just chill out.

[Deleted]

Well the intentions are obvious, from a strictly PVE PoV - to A) fix button bloat, and B) remove a boring 1-cast spell.

It's a good change when you look at it like that.

[Sesshou]

"Fixing" the CP system would most likely be answered by Anticipation regardless. Just look at Holy Power and Chi, you have a higher cap than what an ability can consume at it's max, allowing you to pool it. Getting 4 CP with a single ability makes it more fun since you get to use finishers more often and it adds a second resource you can pool. The main issue with Anticipation is that it's a talent and you're pretty much forced to take it to function properly.

Maybe something similar sure. Holy power and Chi overflow isn't handled by some clunky buff though and as you pointed out isn't an 'optional' talent for paladins or monks. And sure, getting more than 1cp and having cooldowns that make your cp generation increase are interesting. It just also created an annoyance that wasn't there before and they've done a bad job addressing.

What i WAS surprised to see was that Assassination actually has the spell at all, in the content that was available at blizzcon. I would not have been surprised if it was just removed as various people have mentioned as part of the 'redesign'. But to see that it is still there, and that there is also a talent which it's going to Buff it to the ying-yang (Master the Basics) is very interesting.

I'm not shocked they didn't remove it. I mean thats what we've been asking for, so obviously it won't happen. More seriously, the devs apparently like how passive we are and removing SnD entirely would shift a lot of our damage sources to something more active.

[wonderlust]

Well the intentions are obvious, from a strictly PVE PoV - to A) fix button bloat, and B) remove a boring 1-cast spell.

It's a good change when you look at it like that.

Exactly. It was not meant to fix the tons of QoL issues that plague rogues currently; it was attempting to fix different issues. One shouldn't simply dismiss it because it doesn't solve other things that they were expecting.

Slice and Dice is an incredibly boring ability. You push it, and it passively increases how much damage you'll do. No instant gratification, no satisfaction, no cool spell effects, nothing. Just a buff you have to either apply and forget about, or keep reapplying (depending on the spec), without it actually doing anything for you. (If it were a DoT, you would at least see it tick and do damage to your enemy, and all of the benefits that come from it, such as that enemy taking damage while you're not attacking them).

Slice and Dice is the type of ability that feels like a chore you have to complete in order to maximize your damage. While that can be fun for some players, the same kind of rotational complexity can be accomplished in ways that are much more satisfying overall (such as tying that rotational component to your rogue actually doing things -- look at Rising Sun Kick for an example of what I'm talking about). Those type of abilities have got to be replaced with more interesting ones; which is why I was thrilled by this change.

[KoolGuyDags28]

When I saw this I was so happy.

[deviantcultist]

It would be ironic for it to be Assassination only, when Assa is the only spec that can actually maintain it indefinitely through Envenom.

[Verain]

It would be ironic for it to be Assassination only, when Assa is the only spec that can actually maintain it indefinitely through Envenom.

No, that's the opposite or irony. It's intended and logical.

For assassination, it's a poor mechanic. You might occasionally have to spend CPs to refresh it if the mobs disappear for awhile, or if you are kiting a mob with shuriken throw, but overall it stays up for entirely free single target and only occasionally forces you to spend a 1-3 point envenom multitarget or movement.

For combat and sub though, it's a solid rotational part- how and when you refresh it definitely effects your damage. Do you refresh the 8 second left slice and dice before red? What about when the boss is kinda low? These questions all have answers, but they aren't nearly that formulaic. Sub makes the BEST use out of the move, gaining the a benefit for mastery, and of course, sub is a dot and buff timer based spec so obviously it's deeper there anyway.


So no, it's not ironic. It's correct.

[deviantcultist]

So no, it's not ironic. It's correct.

What is so correct in 2013 to have a speedy melee class halting halting its rotation to refresh a passive effect? In other words, there should be an effort to remove that thing rather than bear with the inconvenience.

[Verain]

You don't halt your rotation, slice is a fundamental part of S and C. How you weave it in is the mark of a good tactical call. Lesser rogues do it wrong more often than right. I like skill based distinctions on ST rotations.

[Pathal]

The funny part of CttC going completely passive is that it will finally live up to its name 3 expansions later. You will finally cut to the chase, and not have to cast SnD before you start DPS.