Blizzard doesn't care enough about PvP Balance.

[Deleted]

They've put less ressources into balancing PvP this expansion in comparison to other expansions. Just look at Stampede bug lasting 1½ month, mmr exploit, filler flavour talents that absolutely tears pvp balance apart, classes globaling players etc.

Why play WoW pvp when you can play other pvp games where balance is much better. There is seriously no reason to play WoW only for pvp. Blizzard has realised this, and stopped catering to the pvp crowd in comparison to former expansions.

[Srg56]

I feel like it is one of the main things that are wrong with WoW at the moment. I am not saying they don't try to balance things at all, However they obviously don't make it a main priority.

Most Balance changes happen in major patches. Outside of that there are very minor tweaks and bug fixes. If they really cared about making a balanced game they would make serious changes all of the time. They could even be using the PTR for balance testing to get some feedback on whether a change is overkill or not enough.

For example, Most people agree that Warriors are too strong at the moment. Even the other day Holinka acknowledged that Warriors and Frost Mages are Fotm. Where are the changes bringing them in line with other classes / specs? Or why aren't they bringing the classes at the bottom up so they can more easily compete? My under geared Warrior's slams hit harder than my geared Paladins Templar's Verdicts. How does that make sense?

There is really no excuse for them not to be making more of an effort to balance PvP. Especially when there are no new content patches coming out this expansion and WoD is still quite a while away.

Everything in this post has been talked about for years especially by GC. They can't make changes on the fly because you need to feel like you're playing a class with a solid design philosophy behind it, not something that's here today, gone two weeks later. As for the whole "balance" thing, it's impossible to attain in a mmoRPG, notice the RPG, which stands for role playing game.

The foundation of this game is based on RNG, because that's where this genre started, pen&paper. If you want balance, go play something like chess, but you probably won't. Why? Here's the kicker: balance is boring. And the devs know this. If you look at a "class balance history" of sorts, you will notice that they keep cycling the "FotM" classes. Why is that? Because they need to keep things fresh, and to do that they need to make one class or two a little bit more powerful than the others for periods of time. Of course, they will tell you on twitter that they want balance, and they want to nerf this, and nerf that and that the moon is made out of cheese, and you will believe them too. There are exceptions to this rule, for example mages. Mages have always been "good", and some argue that they've always been very very good.

The reason for "mage OPness" is in the design of the class, and the same reason why many people find them boring to play. You sit in one place and press a button, repeatedly, unless something comes near you and hits you in the face. Compare that to the blitzkrieg of warrior gameplay or the godmode invisibility of rogues, etc. So you see, how they would have to make this class more powerful than others, in order to make up for this lackluster, laid back, and ultimately lacking play style you need to have in order to play a mage.

[dinouille]

ok it's a pve game, so stop force player to get PVP gear to pvp ... i mean, at vanilla/bc and even LK, i needed to do pve in order to pvp and vise versa, it was cool honestly, why always split these 2 part of the game? :x

and yeah, being able to top the lader in crappy gear is a good thing for me, this just proof that u are better :x like i said, ofc gear is important in a rpg, but need it to be THAT MUCH important?

i'm not crying cuz i'm not toping the ladder atm ( i don't wanna even try, pvp realy make me sick and wanna trow my keyboard at the windows)

i use to love bg just for fun, now even that, i can't do anymore :x,

can do outdoor pvp at all, can't kill a fucking heal, can't do 3v1 as i use to do. and no, people didnt get better ...

my grey friendlist just proof that the game is badly tweaked, all my friend think exactly the same thing as me so ... sry, can't think i'm wrong ...


oh and, thanks for the los advice about the cc, funy to loss instant fear or stuff like that when playing melee ...

[nyc81991]

Everything in this post has been talked about for years especially by GC. They can't make changes on the fly because you need to feel like you're playing a class with a solid design philosophy behind it, not something that's here today, gone two weeks later. As for the whole "balance" thing, it's impossible to attain in a mmoRPG, notice the RPG, which stands for role playing game.

The foundation of this game is based on RNG, because that's where this genre started, pen&paper. If you want balance, go play something like chess, but you probably won't. Why? Here's the kicker: balance is boring. And the devs know this. If you look at a "class balance history" of sorts, you will notice that they keep cycling the "FotM" classes. Why is that? Because they need to keep things fresh, and to do that they need to make one class or two a little bit more powerful than the others for periods of time. Of course, they will tell you on twitter that they want balance, and they want to nerf this, and nerf that and that the moon is made out of cheese, and you will believe them too. There are exceptions to this rule, for example mages. Mages have always been "good", and some argue that they've always been very very good.

The reason for "mage OPness" is in the design of the class, and the same reason why many people find them boring to play. You sit in one place and press a button, repeatedly, unless something comes near you and hits you in the face. Compare that to the blitzkrieg of warrior gameplay or the godmode invisibility of rogues, etc. So you see, how they would have to make this class more powerful than others, in order to make up for this lackluster, laid back, and ultimately lacking play style you need to have in order to play a mage.

I am not talking about making sweeping class mechanic changes. I am talking about balance tuning. For example, If Warriors are hitting too hard with Slam and Ret Paladins are hitting for too little with Templar's Verdict than that should be addressed. And something like that should be a simple fix. These are the kind of changes Blizzard should be making a lot more often.

There is no excuse or reason for them to not make frequent balance changes outside of major patches. Mechanic changes can be left for patches / expansions with little issue.

- - - Updated - - -

If you look at the Future then there are very nice changes ahead. Path of Gladiator removes the Gear component from PvP, and also Blizzard said they will monitor it during playtimes so if some people cheat again or certain things happen to become unbalanced hopefully they can react quicker.

Hopefully we will see more changes like the Deathstrikes heal reduced for PvP only, or Stampede Pets doing more damage agianst non-player controlled targets, and at a faster rate.


What I personally wold like to see is also some high itemlevel PvE Gear nerf for PvP not just in Arenas. For Example, Battle Fatigue could increase damage taken from Players, and reduce damage dealt to players if someone has an itemlevel higher than current Conquest gear proportionally.

That way, PvP Gear remains somewhat the best for PvP also in wPvP on one hand, and it does not have to be so crushingly strong as in 5.0 to outdo PvE Gear so also starting players or alts have an easier time getting in.

Having equal gear is essentially irrelevant when the issue comes down to your Class / Spec not being able to do enough damage or have enough defensives to stay alive. And when Blizzard refuses to make balance changes it leaves people in that spot where you either deal with being underpowered or you roll the Fotm class.

[Toiran]

The dev's have said it's literally impossible to create a perfect balance, they can only go so far.

The major thing stopping balance is they cannot create pure PvP only specs any more because Jimmy want's to go Blood in PvP, and Timmy want's to PvP as fury etc.

I don't PvP much, but I'd actually prefer it if they went back to PvP spec/PvE spec (Sort of, not that that was ever a 100% rule, but there was days when say, if you PvP'd as a warrior, it was Arms, always, and PvE was Fury always, not a hard rule, but it was true for the most part), then they create a balance for PvE around PvE specs and abilities, and PvP balance around PvP spec's and abilities.

But it will never happen because they now try and cater to everyones wish, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to PvP succesfully, you should need a different toolkit to what you PvE with, thus, I'd have no problem if I suddenly couldn't use MM for PvE, or Arms for PvP, etc.

Trial of the Glad is going to be interesting for the whole gear/skill thing.

[klaps_05]

they dont care about the balance and keep on introducing new stuff like the debuff this season, changing arenas, changing what works and what not in arena. I believe they are doing that so less and less people can get into arena(since you'll need to literally read through 100 articles to get a clue about all classes and arena related topics), so they arena population will never grow too much, thus won't have to care about them.

[Tulkus]

they dont care about the balance and keep on introducing new stuff like the debuff this season, changing arenas, changing what works and what not in arena. I believe they are doing that so less and less people can get into arena(since you'll need to literally read through 100 articles to get a clue about all classes and arena related topics), so they arena population will never grow too much, thus won't have to care about them.

You could not be more wrong. The reason the devs are changing so much about PvP this expansion is to get MORE people involved. That's why they introduced things like higher base resilience, conquest catchup, etc. It's to be more forgiving to people when they first jump in to PvP.

But, like everyone has said already, I wish they would be a little quicker to make class changes instead of turning the class completely around every few months. I understand they want consistency in class feeling, but lots of minor tweaks that could have a meaningful impact on a class wouldn't even affect the way a class is played. We can dream though.

[Deus_77]

As long they don't separate PVE and PVP, doubt it can be balance.

IMO, the easiest fix to separate PVE and PVP is to also put the resilience is spell

For example, Spell A has 100K damage, with 73% PVP res ( will reduce the damage if the target is Player ).

If the class is fine in PVP, but need buff in PVE, buff the damage say 120K, and also change the PVP res to 77,5%. It will buff in PE dps, but stay the same in PVP

[KeirAdish]

As long they don't separate PVE and PVP, doubt it can be balance.

IMO, the easiest fix to separate PVE and PVP is to also put the resilience is spell

For example, Spell A has 100K damage, with 73% PVP res ( will reduce the damage if the target is Player ).

If the class is fine in PVP, but need buff in PVE, buff the damage say 120K, and also change the PVP res to 77,5%. It will buff in PE dps, but stay the same in PVP

Its even simpler than that, Just make abilities have two different settings, against a player it does 60k dmg against a monster it does 100k dmg etc...
They have it set like that for CC, so why not for attacks and such...

PRETTY BALANCED?

my god ! i play since vanilla


i got multi glad with 3 different classes and for me, it's the WORSE SEASON EVER, and the WORSE XPAC when talking about balance ... it's HORRIBLE

i use to be able to top ladder without having to wear the best gear of the game, now, you just can't, gear >>>>>>>>> skill... and classes are just brocken, aoe everywhere, 984894189 sec dot's, instant cast, 48949494 cc for every class .... no man, you can't say that, sorry

the probleme is not damage ... no offense here but, honestly, have you ever play this game competitively ?

every xpac is worse and worse and worse

sry bad english

What I got from this is...
"I've been playing longer so I know how it should be and you don't.

I managed to get a PvP title in a season that has absolutely no relevance to my current skill.
I can't use a FoTM class without any gear to win anymore so boo hoo someone make it easy on me again."

That's all I got from you.

Seriously, I see the "I played since Vanilla." and "I was a multi glad in BC/wrath" arguments thrown around a lot...
And I have to say... WHO BLOODY CARES!!!
It has absolutely no effect on your skill level for how things are now.
Want to impress me? Tell me you're a gladiator right now and still don't like how its set up, that is the only viable time to try and use having gladiator as a reason why you know more than others.

[nyc81991]

The dev's have said it's literally impossible to create a perfect balance, they can only go so far.

The major thing stopping balance is they cannot create pure PvP only specs any more because Jimmy want's to go Blood in PvP, and Timmy want's to PvP as fury etc.

I don't PvP much, but I'd actually prefer it if they went back to PvP spec/PvE spec (Sort of, not that that was ever a 100% rule, but there was days when say, if you PvP'd as a warrior, it was Arms, always, and PvE was Fury always, not a hard rule, but it was true for the most part), then they create a balance for PvE around PvE specs and abilities, and PvP balance around PvP spec's and abilities.

But it will never happen because they now try and cater to everyones wish, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to PvP succesfully, you should need a different toolkit to what you PvE with, thus, I'd have no problem if I suddenly couldn't use MM for PvE, or Arms for PvP, etc.

Trial of the Glad is going to be interesting for the whole gear/skill thing.

I'm not really even talking about making the game "perfectly balanced". If "X" class is doing too much damage with "X" ability than it should be nerfed. If "Y" class is not doing enough damage than "Y" ability (or abilities) should be buffed.

The way Blizzard does things now, those types of issues will not be addressed until a major content patch. Sometimes it takes even longer. If they truly cared about balance at all they would be making changes a lot more often.

[dinouille]

did some arena today, just to see how it look like ...

juste O M G

how can people say it's any good? how can a game be so bad? not a SINGLE THING IS GOOD, NOT ONE, get it down and rebuild it, that's what pvp need, this is the only way to fix it

oh and one question for u, what's the purpose of mana bar ? since it can't be oomed, so funy

pet dmg ? LOOOOOOOOL


stupid spamy no brain game, never see a game so badly tune than this in my 10 years of mmo playing, fucking idiot people that love this game and made it that way, can't say anything else, no respect for that! x)

[ipoststuff]

I cant believe people are defending wow pvp atm. Some say it cant be perfectly balanced.

We are NOWHERE near balance though.

Warriors make up half the melee in high ratings. One class vs 6 combined! Everyone by now knows warriors and frost mages are OP. But we dont get fixes. Why? Give me a good reason why 5.4.2 didnt deliver bunch of PvP balance changes.

[Zathrendar]

The game's entire PVP needs a re-think, especially with regard to CC and burst, and Blizzard acknowledges this. Whether they will do anything about it is anyone's guess. I play and like warriors, of course.

[taishar68]

From my PoV, they care too much; classes are very homogenous, when compared to classic/TBC, and multiple classes have similar counters. Everyone sees it differently, no?

[Tyrannica]

The game is pretty far from being balanced. And my point is that Blizzard isn't doing much at all to make it better. They should be constantly making balance changes where they are needed instead of waiting until major patches to do anything.

.

Well we are talking warriors here. They will never see a hotfix during a season, cause its not a hero class and shouldn't get any hardships.

I remember, when i played my dk in arenas in the first cata season, he got overnight 20 hotfixes, quite some adressed dmg. Necro, petdmg death coil dmg it was all nerfed over night.

And there were stealth nerfes, too.


In mop blizz never touched the class so there was not much to nerf except the rare blood dk scum that does 2s. and yeah they got heir death strike hotfix too.

[dinouille]

Its even simpler than that, Just make abilities have two different settings, against a player it does 60k dmg against a monster it does 100k dmg etc...
They have it set like that for CC, so why not for attacks and such...





What I got from this is...
"I've been playing longer so I know how it should be and you don't.

I managed to get a PvP title in a season that has absolutely no relevance to my current skill.
I can't use a FoTM class without any gear to win anymore so boo hoo someone make it easy on me again."

That's all I got from you.

Seriously, I see the "I played since Vanilla." and "I was a multi glad in BC/wrath" arguments thrown around a lot...
And I have to say... WHO BLOODY CARES!!!
It has absolutely no effect on your skill level for how things are now.
Want to impress me? Tell me you're a gladiator right now and still don't like how its set up, that is the only viable time to try and use having gladiator as a reason why you know more than others.

someone who have been glad in multi season have a way better vieuw than all people that only do some bg's since mop for me, that why i say it

cuz if someone that tel me he only managed to get a glad now and not the 165661 season before then he just know nothing for me, not just because the pvp is brocken, but because 99% off good player who played the game when it was a little bit competitive have left or stop playing pvp.

look the pvp community ( well, community in general is not even close of what it use to be), i mean, do you know the name of good player than everyone are talking about? stuff like neilyo, snutz, reckful etcetcetc? no, there is 0 name that come out, cuz the game it's just bad and don't reward good player.

same goes in pve btw ... that's say a lot

[lunchbox2042]

Of course pvp isn't their main priority. WoW is a pve game with pvp tacked on. It's balanced for pve with some changed to abilities in pvp where needed.

[Deleted]

Of course pvp isn't their main priority. WoW is a pve game with pvp tacked on. It's balanced for pve with some changed to abilities in pvp where needed.

wow thx for bringing up this cancer excuse and enlightening us

[NickCageFanatic]

Eh i play wow since vanila and i can tell you this:
A) They will never balance classes
B) Having some other classes being better for a time makes players switch
C) Every player that goes from a start to lvl a new OP pvp class is profit for blizzard
D) Racials get reworked all the time, not because of balance but because of money (see human racial)
E) I miss starshards on my priest
F) Due to stat changes every expansion (removing armor pent, removing resilance, limiting players power) makes some classes less powerfull than others,
but then its a new patch that makes them OP .... logic? = money?

A) True!
B) That's why Blizzard has had certain classes stay at the top spot since the beginning of time. So players roll another one so Blizzard gets more money...logic!!!
C) Rerolling a new class gives Blizzard more money how? Longer duration of a sub? Maybe but I would still be playing anyway so no not necessarily.
D) Racials were reworked once...soooooooooo fail.
E) Didn't play back then, but I sympathize.
F) Any class with burst potential is always in a good spot regardless of how stats are adjusted. Burst with a little sustained is and always will be the name of the game as long as your class has at least burst you will be fine. If you have both you are FotM.

[Schwert]

They balance for the sake of fun without realizing they give things out based on ladders.
They want to have both - but everybody who isn't FotM isn't getting any cake because of it.

They're not really thinking things through here.

If they actually started doing weekly hotfixes for PvP things could be a hell of a lot better but it's just so...random when they do mid-season changes. Actually actively updating things would help a lot.