Blizzard's poor excuses

[yetgdhfgh]

They're posted online and in 3 continents. How more "abroad" can they look?

I guess working for one of the US biggest gaming companies must really suck. I guess EA prolly offers better health care LOL

sorry no excuses anymore they made a great game back 10 years ago on prolly less staff what is there excuse now?

[Sunaka]

what is there excuse now?

Expectations. Really. The art 10 years ago pales to the art now, many times over. There are activities they didn't even dream of then. Everything is vastly more complex. What took a team of 3 a couple months to do then likely takes over a dozen people 3+ months now just because of the scope and higher level of expectation. Compare launch Westfall or Tanaris or any Vanilla zone with Jade Forest and tell me they took the same manhours, or even the same calendar time. Hell, compare any launch BC or LK zone with Jade Forest and say the same. Then remember that WoD zones likely have even more in them. It always takes more... more effort, more people, more time. And even if they constantly add more, it still takes more and more...of everything.

It takes days to properly make and test a campaign mission solo in SC2. And that's with premade art, AI, engine, and code. Now imagine coding the unit manually, and the event triggers, and making the unit's art. Sure, if I had a few people helping, parts would go faster. But, if I had help, why not do more? Well, then we need a few people for arting units, a few for events, and a few for AI. Huh, yanno, we could add a bit more. Etc, etc.

[Durandro]

And MMOC is ofcourse the site where all the mentally unstable keep protecting Blizzard as if it's their love-child.

Nobody in their right mind would buy the crap that Blizzard is incapable of providing more resources or delivering more content. It's only a matter of unwillingness.

Its more mentally unsound to hate a company and product to the point of screaming and crying about it online, but never actually moving on to something they enjoy more.

[Celarent]

If you want an interesting window into Blizzard's shortcomings, read employee reviews. The most common complaints — that pretty much transcend conspiracy or imitation on the part of reviewers — are small-company mentalities and tenure-based leadership structure.

[Amerissis]

What's your opinion on this matter?

My opinion is that you have no idea how companies run. It's not a matter of money. We've been looking for a .NET developer with some pretty specific skills for months now, and they're just not there. The good ones have jobs and aren't leaving, the 'not so good ones' apply but often lack skills and sometimes everything seems perfect but they'd absolutely not fit in with the company and the people already working there. Throwing money at it is not going to change that.

[Lumineus]

There's a saying in programming communities. It goes a little something like "A woman can make a baby in nine months, but nine women can't make a baby in one month"

Adding more hands doesn't necessarily help. There is a critical capacity.

No, but you can make nine babies in nine months. You can only take the analogy so far. To use a popular and well-known dichotomy in WoW development, flyable Silvermoon apparently leads to less raid content. How the Hell are Silvermoon and a raid zone even siblings, let alone the same exact baby? That does not speak to a critical mass of artist man-hours, it speaks to rampant understaffing.

I would actually be more willing to buy the "we can't find good enough talent" excuse if the people saying it didn't represent a multi-billion dollar conglomerate. You know, how about instead of cherry picking hot shot developers from other companies, you hire interns and create your own hotshots in-house? Time was, this wasn't actually optional in the industry, but now it's all, well so-and-so is laying off, we''ll just re-hire their senior guys with a massive paycut and act like we're doing them a big favor. Management getting too big for their britches.

[Sunaka]

How the Hell are Silvermoon and a raid zone even siblings, let alone the same exact baby?

The art is mostly done. However, barriers, testing, checking flags, checking associations, etc, all take time. And that's assuming they exclude QD, which likely would need restructuring to disallow flight. The net benefit is for a little bit of air time with low justification. A couple weeks or so that're pointless and better spent elsewhere.

[Santoryu]

Already existed before launch, they even had a contest to kill Ony at the end of beta. Most of MC was done long before launch. 1.6 (the next tier) was longer away than ToT was from MoP's launch.

Doesn't matter if it was there before launch - it was made available to the general public. Yes, the next raid was longer away but every major patch added meaningful content in the form of Maraudon (1.2), Dire Maul (1.3), Honor system (1.4) and Battlegrounds (1.5).

Skettis, Ogri'la, Netherwing. Which was #4, now?

Ethereum prisons, Consortium.

Hyjal was in with launch and the majority of BT work was done already.

2.1 made Vashj and Kael drop vials for everybody and that basically opened up Hyjal because prior to that only a few vials dropped per kill. Why does it matter if the majority of BT had been done? It was done, and that matters.

Also note that excepting ZA (as it was both short and non-tier) there was a huge no-tier gap between 2.1 and 2.4.

That was not an issue because TBC did not obsolete content so readily. A lot of people had a lot of content to churn through. Karazhan, Gruul & Maghteridon, followed by Vashj and Kael, then BT and Hyjal. Multiple raids per tier ensured that people didn't get bored and provided variety. Also, there was a clear cut progression path people followed.

Firelands, which was 2 and a half months later. Note that Firelands was a bigger burst than even QD. 4.1 even included quality-of-life fixes that another 2 months would've been torture.

A 7 boss raid after 6 months of development is pathetic.

Comparing .1 patches is a moronic comparison.

I don't believe so. I believe the first major patch of an expansion is a great indicator of the development pace.

Why not compare .3 patches, which gave raids in BC(small), LK and Cata, Scenarios and Escalation in Mists, and DM (woo) in vanilla?

If put into context x.3 major patches are lead by 3.3 in simple size terms, but Zul'Aman was far superior to DS in my mind, simply because DS reused so many areas and models. Mists 5.3 patch is right up there as well, while Dire Maul was back in the day a great addition, especially because it was non linear.

Point is, your argument sucks and has nothing to do with the statement that raids are better. I still prefer LK raids, but considering the scope of availability and accessibility in Mists raids, they are far better from a content standpoint.

Great counterpoint. Raids have always been accessible, you just had to be good back then.

Bigger also mostly applies, as the tiers in Mists had 16/12/14, versus LK's 17/13/5/11/(1)....

No, all these tiers, apart from the first one of each expansion, had single raids per tier, which is dumb.

Also note that all raids from LK onward have 2-6 difficulties, effectively making each raid 1.25-2x (or more) the size for development & size puposes.

So if I read a 450 page book under normal lightning conditions and then again in a dark room (harder), does that mean I've read 2 different books or a 900 page one? I don't think so.

Difficulty is just a dial that can be turned up or down.

[megasus]

How the Hell are Silvermoon and a raid zone even siblings, let alone the same exact baby? That does not speak to a critical mass of artist man-hours, it speaks to rampant understaffing.

Cities as well as dungeons, raids, caves and buildings in general are mainly designed by the dungeon team (It also used to be mentioned as "City/Dungeon team" in the credits). It consists of roughly 13 people.
That's why people can't simply compare the number of dungeons of each expansion and say that this team has done somewhat less work. I bet they are also heavily involved in the creation of garrisons in wod.

[Deadite]

You call that a simple question?

It is a simple quiestion. One you did not answer but no problem. I think we all know you think it is entirely acceptable.

It's three months ago since LFR was completely unlocked, that's not 6 months.

So the easy version of a raid that was already out is new content now? Wow.. ok.

We have no information on the beta and nothing to support this "an entire year till WoD"-theory.

I said nine months to a year. You think that time frame is wrong? Anyways i can see this is a pointless discussion. Some people are happy with nothing while others want new content faster that the half a year + of nothing Blizzard operates on.

[Sunaka]

Doesn't matter if it was there before launch

Yes it does. Features I tested in beta and even alpha were implemented post-launch. If the crux of your argument is newly created (including newly published) content, you have to include the time where it was in development or already finished. You don't say you magically made a hot dog if you pulled one off the rotary grill.

Yes, the next raid was longer away but every major patch added meaningful content in the form of Maraudon (1.2), Dire Maul (1.3), Honor system (1.4) and Battlegrounds (1.5).

This has what to do with anything when you specified raids AND brushed aside non-raid/dungeon content? And, again, dev time. Mara and DM were mostly done already.

Ethereum prisons, Consortium.

Nice try. They have no dailies.

2.1 made Vashj and Kael drop vials for everybody and that basically opened up Hyjal because prior to that only a few vials dropped per kill. Why does it matter if the majority of BT had been done?

Because you're passing it off as a big, quick, fleshed-out patch based on patch number and ignoring the lead-in and production time. And Hyjal was still in, it was not a 2.1 raid and stating it was is factually incorrect and disingenuous to a discussion.

That was not an issue because TBC did not obsolete content so readily. A lot of people had a lot of content to churn through. Karazhan, Gruul & Maghteridon, followed by Vashj and Kael, then BT and Hyjal. Multiple raids per tier ensured that people didn't get bored and provided variety. Also, there was a clear cut progression path people followed.

Were forced into*. For many (most?) BC didn't progress past T4. Also, ZA was before T5 in terms of progression. And obsoleted content doesn't apply when a big part of your point and the point of the discussion was release time.

A 7 boss raid after 6 months of development is pathetic.

I disagree. ZA didn't suck quite as much as you just said.

I don't believe so. I believe the first major patch of an expansion is a great indicator of the development pace.

Second tier is best usually. Especially since in the case of Mists 5.1 and 5.3 were story patches given the numbers as storyline waypoints. They weren't "major content patches" in the same way 5.2 was a major content patch.

If put into context x.3 major patches are lead by 3.3 in simple size terms, but Zul'Aman was far superior to DS in my mind, simply because DS reused so many areas and models. Mists 5.3 patch is right up there as well, while Dire Maul was back in the day a great addition, especially because it was non linear.

"in the day" does not count objectively, and you still glossed over the point, which is that x.x is arbitrary as it ignores time. 2.3 wasn't super far ahead of 2.4, but it was still 6 months behind 2.1, and you just said that was pathetic.

Great counterpoint.

Thank you, but it was a dismissal. Bad argument is bad.

No, all these tiers, apart from the first one of each expansion, had single raids per tier, which is dumb.

Ulduar was widely regarded as a visually distinctive raid between sections, and lacked sameness. I can argue that Hyjal was too bland, SSC was too jumbled, and TK was too obtrusive that their art did not make them acceptable differences. Also, Kara was huge and samey, yet people loved it. Sounds like a pointless dismissal.

So if I read a 450 page book under normal lightning conditions and then again in a dark room (harder), does that mean I've read 2 different books? I don't think so.

Difficulty is just a dial that can be turned up or down.

To the player. The devs have to individually tune them all. The point here was dev time ("for development & size puposes.") and not player perception, which you seem to be stuck focusing on.

[Santoryu]

Yes it does. Features I tested in beta and even alpha were implemented post-launch. If the crux of your argument is newly created (including newly published) content, you have to include the time where it was in development or already finished.

So why can't they do the same now? If they had the ability to prep raids before an expansion's launch before, what has happened it it?

And, again, dev time. Mara and DM were mostly done already.

So why can't we have "mostly done" content now? With that I mean that why can't they "mostly finish" content now before an expansion?

Were forced into*

Like we're not all being forced into one tier of content now?

And obsoleted content doesn't apply when a big part of your point and the point of the discussion was release time.

Of course it applies. If more content is relevant and people do it and have something to do, the development time for the next piece of content can be longer.

And Hyjal was still in, it was not a 2.1 raid and stating it was is factually incorrect and disingenuous to a discussion.

Of course Hyjal had been there before 2.1 but almost nobody could attempt it due to lack of vial drops. We could have the new Draenor in game right now and it wouldn't make a difference if no one could go there.

Nice try. They have no dailies.

My bad, but it did offer a quest chain that allowed for the summoning of an additional boss in Mana Tombs.

I disagree. ZA didn't suck quite as much as you just said.

In terms of size there should have been more bosses in both. But you can justify calling Zul'aman quality over quantity.

They weren't "major content patches" in the same way 5.2 was a major content patch.

Traditionally, and it almost makes sense that it is so, major patches are x.1/2/3... and filler or bug fix patches are x.1.x, x.2.x and so forth.

I can argue that Hyjal was too bland, SSC was too jumbled, and TK was too obtrusive that their art did not make them acceptable differences. Also, Kara was huge and samey, yet people loved it. Sounds like a pointless dismissal.

My point on that was that your raid schedule wasn't mundane and samey like it is now. Now you do the same raid week in week out.

To the player. The devs have to individually tune them all. The point here was dev time ("for development & size puposes.") and not player perception, which you seem to be stuck focusing on.

They create the raid, make 4 copies of it and then adjust the difficulty switches for each one. There is no way each difficulty is created from scratch and if it is, then something is wrong.

[Yriel]

2. The whole Titan crew? Roughly 70% of the developers were deducted. And not all of them are working on the wow team now, many went to other projects: There is still HotS, diablo and starcraft, unnanounced project, hearthstone. In addition to that who told you that it was apparently no problem to integrate the people???
Get your facts straigt!

Way to avoid the point. They still managed to integrate a lot of new devs to wow in a short time which pretty much destroys the whole "You can't just add people to an existing team" meme that is so prevalent here.

[Jester Joe]

No, but you can make nine babies in nine months. You can only take the analogy so far. To use a popular and well-known dichotomy in WoW development, flyable Silvermoon apparently leads to less raid content. How the Hell are Silvermoon and a raid zone even siblings, let alone the same exact baby? That does not speak to a critical mass of artist man-hours, it speaks to rampant understaffing.

Silvermoon would need to be remade from the ground up, as most buildings in there apparently aren't real buildings according to GC I believe

https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...05899304177664

So it would take a long time.

[laughtrey]

If you want an interesting window into Blizzard's shortcomings, read employee reviews. The most common complaints — that pretty much transcend conspiracy or imitation on the part of reviewers — are small-company mentalities and tenure-based leadership structure.

Yeah...this is probably all bullshit. Anyone can write a review anonymously. Whats the point of this?

[Wixwix]

It's a silly excuse indeed.

Just be honest instead, you didn't want to spend time on x because casual feature #4837 was more important.

[Sunaka]

So why can't they do the same now? If they had the ability to prep raids before an expansion's launch before, what has happened it it?

So why can't we have "mostly done" content now? With that I mean that why can't they "mostly finish" content now before an expansion?

Again, expectations. People keep wanting bigger and bigger. You can't honestly say BC raids were as detailed as launch ones in later expansions. Except Kara, BC launch raids were horribly tuned to the point of practically broken in SSC. The 5 mans were also far less intricate then, allowing more time to work on raids.

And BTW, most of the non-raid 2.1 stuff was stale even when it was released. It was shiny and new, but bland and boring. Netherwing lasted longer, but remember that most people were still in Kara, so dailies were the only new thing for them.

Like we're not all being forced into one tier of content now?

Currently valid and heartcrushingly unattainable aren't the same thing.

Of course it applies. If more content is relevant and people do it and have something to do, the development time for the next piece of content can be longer.

No. Your argument here is that putting a wall between 2 points allows you to build stuff while it's taken down. Nevermind that back in vanilla and BC people were also whining about the length of tiers.

In terms of size there should have been more bosses in both. But you can justify calling Zul'aman quality over quantity.

Uh... Only 3 bosses in ZA (half) were mechanically interesting and it was a massive trashfest before Hex Lord. Like I said, it was fine, but using the Q-over-Q argument on it versus Firelands is silly on a few levels. Not least of which being the scope of 2.3 or 2.4 versus 4.2.

Traditionally, and it almost makes sense that it is so, major patches are x.1/2/3... and filler or bug fix patches are x.1.x, x.2.x and so forth.

Story progression isn't filler, and tradition isn't really important. Besides, both 5.1 and 5.3 added actual content. It just wasn't major content.

My point on that was that your raid schedule wasn't mundane and samey like it is now. Now you do the same raid week in week out.

Changing location doesn't break up monotony just because it's a different name. Unless you were in T5, you were doing the same raid nonstop anyway. People keep crapping on Blizz when there's multiple raids. Then they crap on them for 1 raid. Also, let's not forget that in Vanilla it was 1 raid too, yes? And, again, people loved Kara even when stuck in it.

They create the raid, make 4 copies of it and then adjust the difficulty switches for each one. There is no way each difficulty is created from scratch and if it is, then something is wrong.

OK, so you have a boss that hits say 5 targets on 25. You set it to hit 1 on 10. Now you have to check damage compared to healer pool. Quick and done. Now you have to turn up the damage in heroic for both, then compare to healer pool. Then turn it down a bit for LFR. Then add scaling between 10 and 25 and check the numbers along the way. Now you have to recheck all the numbers on various armor levels and work on a sustained damage amount due to MBPD. Tune as necessary. Now you repeat that for 5-25 abilities, then get the test team to check it out and give thoughts. Odds are, there's a lot of tweaking and iteration. And they have to test and recheck each iteration on each difficulty. Then they can do another boss. And then they have to check the boss curve. And compare to the previous tier for difficulty curve. And this is ignoring ability inclusion/exclusion for difficulties.

The most complex bosses in BC aren't as complicated as any boss in post-launch Mists raids. At least as far as dev time. Again, just because you can turn a dial doesn't mean the dial was quick to implement.

[Pann]

Yeah...this is probably all bullshit. Anyone can write a review anonymously. Whats the point of this?

Why do you think it all bullshit? The majority of the reviews seem positive and the negative issues are typical of any large company. Although some reviews seem to point to Blizzard still having a small company mentality which has been my feeling for a while and would go some way to explaining why no-one has has been fired over WOW's shortcomings in the past few years.

[Roamingstorm]

Hiring quality developers is easier said than done, and once they have created the content what do they next?

You can throw as much money at a problem but eventually there will be diminishing returns.

Perfect example Star Wars the Old Republic...EA threw a fortune at that game and it was like a race horse that tripped right off the bat.

Making a video game isn't easy, cheap, and quick like people like to assume it is. Hiring people, which you more then like have hundreds if not thousands of resumes to look at isn't something easy to look at. Blizzard maybe making a fortune off of WoW, and their other franchises, but making them are never cheap. Let alone failing to realize how much money goes to their customer service, web designers, servers, maintenance, bills, etc.

About the length in time for Blizzard releasing things, this is Blizzard, if you're a veteran of their games you know they don't release things every year. There's a reason why we have "Soon" trademarked.

@OP: If your post sounded like an attack, and a raging fanboy, then there's your reason why your post was deleted, difference between bad and good criticism.

[dejaa]

Exactly what they should and can do. But they don't and that's why I'm ranting here on the forums. Everyone can see that.

Or even more effectively, capitulate to the fact they have a bigger problem with process and oversight than they do with development, and do something about it. Blizzard has no agility for the reasons you stated in an earlier post. This is why they can't back away from a bad decision before it does serious damage, a la Cataclysm and World of DailyCraft for example, and also why I think the no-flying-until-the-first-patch is going to come back and bite them in the ass.