The joy of pets....

[Kissthebaby]

Hitting Chim shot as a MM hunter is 10x more vital that doing so as BM because it's the only ability that refreshed serpent sting so missing it means huge dps loss.

This part made me laugh the most. Serpent sting does so much damage as mm its insane. terrible troll and thats exactly what you are.

[Dracodraco]

I could point out every single thing wrong with that post and give you an extremely fair argument but I'm afraid my time is limited so I will point out the flaws I see.



Okay wait a minute. I literally spat out my plum orange juice all over my monitor at this statement right here.

Let's compare some mathematical simple data here.

Careful Aim + Aimed shot + the 30% bleed hits wayyyyyy harder than insanity unless the spriest did nothing before the engineers to ensure his procs would be up, but it still wouldn't beat careful aim with trinket procs up.

That's not mathematical data, actually. That's you say "NO THIS HITS HARDER BECAUSE I SAID SO". If you want to use the word "mathematical", include actual math - not vague opinions. You'll have to actually, you know, prove what you're saying rather than dismissing it.

50%+ of shadow priest damage is revovled around shadow orbs so saving them up means you're doing 50% less single target damage. Now why don't you compare that to a hunter saving up focus 10 seconds before engineers come out. Building up 3 orbs as a spriest takes over double that. So this statement makes no sense really.

You're forgetting about the fact that hunters also has to save up a MMM proc and sit on that: That aside, building up 3 orbs as a spriest takes max 18 seconds, and less with SW: death on adds, or mind blast procs. HOWEVER, this does not in any way effect the way that the class plays. You can easily start saving up your orbs 20 seconds before you want to rush off to the engineer, and I'm actually pretty sure that the first engineer spawns so that you only JUST managed to get your third orb as you have to go off to it. Regardless, if you think it's worse having to sit on your orbs for a few seconds, that really doesn't make any sense to me, either.

You have to manage focus more carefully and use rapid fire 10 times more wisely as rapid fire as an MM hunter means it's time to switch from arcane shot to aimed. As a BM hunter you can just macro it into your shots and not ever have to worry about it. MM hunters have to ensure that they keep their steady focus up at all times, as a BM hunter you just cobra shot whenever you feel like it. Hitting Chim shot as a MM hunter is 10x more vital that doing so as BM because it's the only ability that refreshed serpent sting so missing it means huge dps loss. MM hunters have to be precise and pay attention to HP % as they want to take full advantage of CA. as BM you just go without ever looking at the target HP.

You have no clue about hunter gameplay. Gotcha. Let's start off here -
You don't manage rapid fire in any of the 3 specs with the current tier setbonuses. You use them *on cooldown*. There is absolutely no managing to do. Do you want to save up a-almost full focus bar as MM when you are nearing rapid fire? Sure you do. It gives you an edge on the Aimed hardcasting. Then again - you also want to save up a full focus bar for beastial wrath as BM, so you don't have to waste valueable buffed-damage globals on lousy cobrashots.
Steady focus is hilariously easy to keep up since it was "buffed" or "nerfed", depending on how you view it. It's a 20-second window now, dude - not 8. It *used* to be part of managing MM back in Cataclysm, but now it's just something that comes automatically.

Actually, keeping serpent sting up as BM when you have to play around the random focus gains and 10-second of no CS-BW is about as difficult as Steady aim.
Also, you may not realise this, but the biggest damage gain for BM hunters in general who comes to this forum asking for guidance, is hitting kill command *on cd*. You say it's more important as MM because it refreshes serpent sting? Bull-fucking-shit. SS lasts 15 seconds, chimera shot is on a 9 second CD. You have all the time in the world to hit your ability to refresh SS. Now, do you *want* to hit it on CD for max DPS? Of course you do.
Actually, that's a major difference - did you even know that for BM, there's actually a priority in place that means that occasionally, you're going to want to let serpent sting fall off and reapply it again (especially happens in the opener) because cobra shot just isn't worth it? MM never has to think of this. They ALWAYS want to hit Chim on CD, because it's the main nuke. There's never a question about it.

As for MM wanting to be "precise and pay attention to HP %, that's the only thing BM doesn't do that MM does, but here's something BM does instead that MM doesn't do - control Focus Fire.
Can you tell me in which scenarios you would want to hold focus fire in this tier? Just for the heck of it. You seem so knowledgeable, you gotta know that.

I could keep this going for paragraphs but I believe you get the idea.

Keep going. So far anything you've said has been wrong and completely full of bullshit. You have shown no evidence towards the claims you've made apart from "I said so". You have no grasp of how to play the class, let alone spec, that you are commenting on.

I ensure you my raiders are beyond amazing. We don't feel running logs are necessary because everyone is doing what is needed and we don't see a purpose to brag and gloat about how we cheesed meters and ranked #1 in the US/EU because if we wanted to, we definitely could.

Aaaand /discussion - you say that your MM hunters are beating BM hunters in higher gear, but you are so amazing that you don't want to log. Also, I never asked for logs to prove how much DPS they did. I asked for logs to see the DPS-difference. I don't give a flying tiger fucking a fish in the ass about what rank they came in at - if a MM hunter is beating a better geared BM hunter by +25K, there's something wrong with the BM's gameplay, or RNG has smiled upon the MM hunter. I don't care if it's a 350K vs 375K juggernaut (a boss you can't cheese, just FYI - pure singletarget, no damage buffs etc etc) log, which would be well outside ranking, I just want to see what caused the difference in DPS .

[Deleted]

Sorry but I'm on a limited time frame but I managed to get you some data.

That's not mathematical data, actually. That's you say "NO THIS HITS HARDER BECAUSE I SAID SO". If you want to use the word "mathematical", include actual math - not vague opinions. You'll have to actually, you know, prove what you're saying rather than dismissing it.

Luckily enough for the sake of this discussion I was able to snag some data from our Heroic Garrosh farm kill not too long ago. As shown below this is the damage in first couple seconds of our MM hunter (575) compared to out shadow priest (578) on the second siege engineer. The first one was also very similar.

Units of measurement are hundred thousand.


As you see our MM hunter was able to do 1.6 M in the same time in took for the shadow to do 1.1 M and the sad part was both of the MM hunters trinkets weren't even up unlike our shadow priest which had both trinkets up.

Aaaand /discussion - you say that your MM hunters are beating BM hunters in higher gear, but you are so amazing that you don't want to log. Also, I never asked for logs to prove how much DPS they did. I asked for logs to see the DPS-difference. I don't give a flying tiger fucking a fish in the ass about what rank they came in at - if a MM hunter is beating a better geared BM hunter by +25K, there's something wrong with the BM's gameplay, or RNG has smiled upon the MM hunter. I don't care if it's a 350K vs 375K juggernaut (a boss you can't cheese, just FYI - pure singletarget, no damage buffs etc etc) log, which would be well outside ranking, I just want to see what caused the difference in DPS .

We don't run logs because it isn't necessary and showing you logs wouldn't help this discussion one bit as you would probably go through them and find bits of information to attack me with (even though we do preform pretty damn well good) but I'm sure you would come up with something.

[Dracodraco]

Sorry but I'm on a limited time frame but I managed to get you some data.



Luckily enough for the sake of this discussion I was able to snag some data from our Heroic Garrosh farm kill not too long ago. As shown below this is the damage in first couple seconds of our MM hunter (575) compared to out shadow priest (578) on the second siege engineer. The first one was also very similar.

Units of measurement are hundred thousand.


As you see our MM hunter was able to do 1.6 M in the same time in took for the shadow to do 1.1 M and the sad part was both of the MM hunters trinkets weren't even up unlike our shadow priest which had both trinkets up.



We don't run logs because it isn't necessary and showing you logs wouldn't help this discussion one bit as you would probably go through them and find bits of information to attack me with (even though we do preform pretty damn well good) but I'm sure you would come up with something.

You don't seem to understand that you posting a random picture proves absolutely nothing. You can *give me* the data, so I can see for myself what is going on in the log.
Here, take a look at this, 30 seconds -


I mean, seriously dude? Do you really think this is evidence? You can't be this stupid. No one is going to believe you "on your word" - you have yet to prove anything you have said, which means that the only thing that can support an argument is evidence. Fancy colored bars with "data from a source I don't want to give you" is not evidence. Anyone can fabric numbers out of thin air.

That said, you clearly run some kind of "logging" if you're able to get your so-called "data". You showing the hunter community logs WOULD help the discussion - it would help you show us why you think marksmanship is better, and if you turn out to be right, it'd be a happy day for the entire pack of hunters that prefers playing MM, but doesn't because it's a crappy spec compared to the two alternatives, and they don't want to weigh the guilds down. If your MM hunter is beating a better geared BM hunter, maybe he is so amazing he's doing something no one else has thought of. Giving us a log to study would confirm that. Saying it adds "nothing to this discussion" is... Ignorant. I can't think of a better word.
As for me going through them and finding bits of information to attack you with, what would the purpose be? You can look my logs up freely and find all kinds of shit I do wrong in them, launch it at me. I don't really mind. I'm not so thin-skinned that I can't take that some random dude on the internet points out flaws in my gameplay. THAT BEING SAID, if your entire reasoning for not disclosing the data/evidence to prove your argument correct is that you're afraid that I'll find "bits of information to attack you with", then how about this - I promise to do no such thing. All I will do is analyse the data in context to the arguments that you have made in this thread regarding MM hunters . I have no interest in anything else - you do a great job of making a fool of yourself in general anyway with statements like you just made - I don't really need to do anything.

[Kissthebaby]

Sorry but I'm on a limited time frame but I managed to get you some data.



Luckily enough for the sake of this discussion I was able to snag some data from our Heroic Garrosh farm kill not too long ago. As shown below this is the damage in first couple seconds of our MM hunter (575) compared to out shadow priest (578) on the second siege engineer. The first one was also very similar.

Units of measurement are hundred thousand.


As you see our MM hunter was able to do 1.6 M in the same time in took for the shadow to do 1.1 M and the sad part was both of the MM hunters trinkets weren't even up unlike our shadow priest which had both trinkets up.



We don't run logs because it isn't necessary and showing you logs wouldn't help this discussion one bit as you would probably go through them and find bits of information to attack me with (even though we do preform pretty damn well good) but I'm sure you would come up with something.

You have hunters and shadow priest do engineers? what? your so called guild lol. You realize you have no proof of this other than your own word right? You are just showing a bunch of made up bs, trying to get a good troll in just like your mage thread about frost being better than fire at high gear levels. Also how did you "snag" data if you dont log?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post25792935

[Deleted]

You have hunters and shadow priest do engineers? what? your so called guild lol.

It's farm kill content, it's not like it matters. I asked them to do it this one time so I could prove a point. Our MM hunter does them ever kill though and we usually make our shadow priest go disc.

Also how did you "snag" data if you dont log?

I use a modified type in game instrument similar to skada(pretty close comparison) and I "snapshot" the first couple seconds that engineers come out and I later go back and compare that data in which I presented a fraction of it to you.

@Dra I understand you're trying to mock me but that is really immature and childish which is exactly why me proving you wrong with logs will do nothing in this situation. You will just continue your childish insults and remarks despite being proven wrong.

[Deleted]

This guy is the best troll I've ever seen lmfao

[Kissthebaby]

I use a modified type in game instrument.

Smells like Promethean.

[Dracodraco]

It's farm kill content, it's not like it matters. I asked them to do it this one time so I could prove a point. Our MM hunter does them ever kill though and we usually make our shadow priest go disc.



I use a modified type in game instrument similar to skada(pretty close comparison) and I "snapshot" the first couple seconds that engineers come out and I later go back and compare that data in which I presented a fraction of it to you.

@Dra I understand you're trying to mock me but that is really immature and childish which is exactly why me proving you wrong with logs will do nothing in this situation. You will just continue your childish insults and remarks despite being proven wrong.

The only reason I'm mocking you is because I hope you can see how stupid everything you're saying sounds. If it still makes sense to you after I've shown you exactly what it looks like to anyone else but yourself, there's not much helping you. Calling me childish and immature doesn't give any kind of evidence that I'm wrong, or that you're right. Actually, I'd be quite willing to ask the general population of this forum who sounds more "childish and immature" - you or me. The answer might surprise you.
But come on already - prove me wrong. What exactly do you have to lose by doing so? You must be aching to shut such a person like me up.

[Deleted]

You must be aching to shut such a person like me up.

Not really because unlike you, I'm the one being mature in this situation.

Actually, I'd be quite willing to ask the general population of this forum who sounds more "childish and immature" - you or me. The answer might surprise you.

Yes, because majority of the general population of this forum is a mature top, high end heroic raider and theorycrafter.

1. It's too late for me to run logs as we have already cleared for this week.
2. Even if I could run logs, I wouldn't and if I did I wouldn't link them on this thread because it will solve nothing. What happens after I prove you wrong? You will shut up? Unlikely. After linking logs you would then have all the information you need to proceed to attack me and insult me and there will be no limits as each and every piece of data in the logs will not longer be secure and will spark too much attention and as a mature raiding guild, we do not seek the attention that possibly can be brought to us simple by "linking you logs over a childish argument on one single thread".

Basically linking logs to prove one simple point is not worth the attention and attacks we are likely to receive by linking. If you don't want to take my word for it, fine. But don't go around saying you know everything there is to know about hunter dps unless you want to move this to private messages and we can discuss and mathematically evaluate each others idea which will be presented with data and calculations so we do not continue to cloud this thread with your ridiculous childish insults. Which will be the mature adult thing to do in this situation unless you enjoy attacking and insulting me in front of everyone.

[Deleted]

Not really because unlike you, I'm the one being mature in this situation.


Yes, because majority of the general population of this forum is a mature top, high end heroic raider and theorycrafter.

1. It's too late for me to run logs as we have already cleared for this week.
2. Even if I could run logs, I wouldn't and if I did I wouldn't link them on this thread because it will solve nothing. What happens after I prove you wrong? You will shut up? Unlikely. After linking logs you would then have all the information you need to proceed to attack me and insult me and there will be no limits as each and every piece of data in the logs will not longer be secure and will spark too much attention and as a mature raiding guild, we do not seek the attention that possibly can be brought to us simple by "linking you logs over a childish argument on one single thread".

Basically linking logs to prove one simple point is not worth the attention and attacks we are likely to receive by linking. If you don't want to take my word for it, fine. But don't go around saying you know everything there is to know about hunter dps unless you want to move this to private messages and we can discuss and mathematically evaluate each others idea which will be presented with data and calculations so we do not continue to cloud this thread with your ridiculous childish insults. Which will be the mature adult thing to do in this situation unless you enjoy attacking and insulting me in front of everyone.

You disappoint me. You were doing so well, and then you went and got all emotional.

[mercychan]

ooo OOO draco going ham

[Teucer]

/popcorn

At least he's entertaining.

[anjan011]

Okay, why don't u just link a log of ur upcoming H Garrosh kill and prove us all wrong? Not that logging is rocket science, even our casual newly starting heroic team has 2 ppl logging.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, how linking logs is risky? do u konw in Fix my dps thread hundreds of ppl ranging from newbie to advanced players post their logs for veterans to examine and advice, and no one was attacked for posting logs, no one got yelled at "you fucking noob! u suck!". i just cant get over the idea that linking logs will have personal attacks. unless ofcourse u know your log will tell different things u r advocating

[Dracodraco]

Not really because unlike you, I'm the one being mature in this situation.


Yes, because majority of the general population of this forum is a mature top, high end heroic raider and theorycrafter.

1. It's too late for me to run logs as we have already cleared for this week.
2. Even if I could run logs, I wouldn't and if I did I wouldn't link them on this thread because it will solve nothing. What happens after I prove you wrong? You will shut up? Unlikely. After linking logs you would then have all the information you need to proceed to attack me and insult me and there will be no limits as each and every piece of data in the logs will not longer be secure and will spark too much attention and as a mature raiding guild, we do not seek the attention that possibly can be brought to us simple by "linking you logs over a childish argument on one single thread".

Basically linking logs to prove one simple point is not worth the attention and attacks we are likely to receive by linking. If you don't want to take my word for it, fine. But don't go around saying you know everything there is to know about hunter dps unless you want to move this to private messages and we can discuss and mathematically evaluate each others idea which will be presented with data and calculations so we do not continue to cloud this thread with your ridiculous childish insults. Which will be the mature adult thing to do in this situation unless you enjoy attacking and insulting me in front of everyone.

More mature than you are being in this situation, at the very least. And yes, a big part of the theorycrafting community (the one that would take note of your blatant misinformation) are high end raiders and visits the forum and posts regularly.
That said, I'd be happy to take this to private messages and debate hunter theorycraft with you if it means you'll be willing to disclose the information you keep claiming you have, which would solve every single argument in this thread (and for that sake, every other thread where you've made outrageous claims with your fancy bars) in private, and keeping it private. I'm curious. That said, I am extremely confident that I know more about the workings of hunters than you do. You have still not shown any kind of understanding of the general gameplay and needs of the 3 specs, downplaying one thing in one spec, while making a huge deal out of the exact same thing in another.
So go ahead - run your logs next reset. I'll be here either way. If you truly think you'll "spark too much attention" by showing us the logs of your guild of superhuman players, then all I can say is, you think too highly of yourself.

[Pickwickman]

Don't feed the troll guys, just let Draco have his conversation with him for educational purposes.

Although, do report for blatant trolling.

[Daieon]

Tell your mildly tarded raid leader to not send a BM hunter to the belt as they are prolly the worst class at it.

I do belts as BM with 0 issue. Tell the mildly tarded hunter who can't manage their pet they should probably get better.

[Azortharion]

I seriously just noticed I wrote "belts" instead of engineers.

Please throw more flame @ my PM inbox guys, my bad.

[Dhryke]

I seriously just noticed I wrote "belts" instead of engineers.

Please throw more flame @ my PM inbox guys, my bad.

It's ok buddy! We still love you. Anyone who took the time to read the OP and then your post with any amount of common sense could figure out what you meant.

[GoKs]

Not really because unlike you, I'm the one being mature in this situation.


Yes, because majority of the general population of this forum is a mature top, high end heroic raider and theorycrafter.



.

Please take the time to go and check the armory of the people here saying you are wrong (me excluded because I suck and I know it), and you will find that they most propably cleared SoO HC before you did and at a lower ilvl and had to minmax and find the best people for specific jobs, and hence do know what they are talking about.They did not just get to Blow Garry away with 575ilvl when they got there. I might be wrong with the cleared before you did, but I highly doubt that.

PS. I am a Dracco fanboy so what he says go..
PSS. I am kidding, he just always have data to prove or try and prove his point, he has been proven wrong in the past, but that did not stop him from posting logs in the future and proving his point PoV, he is right most of the time though. And that is why I listen when he speaks, and so should you.