[Resto] Warlords of Draenor Alpha: Build 18379

[Thalur]

lololololololololololol @ 4pc

Well, Resto Druids will be getting 0 tier.

Well, the wording is a bit weird. It could be quasi-okish depending on how it actually works.

In the new build, all healers get the same 4p set bonus: Your heals have a 10% chance to increase your spirit by 10% for 10s.
Depending on the internal CD and the amount of spirit we get on those few slots, this could be quite strong - or pretty weak. A regen set bonus is usually a good thing in the first tier.

[Tiberria]

So, on Alpha right now, without really getting a chance to test much
- Efflo still has only a 3 second cooldown and lasts for 5 minutes. I'm not sure if they scrapped the 30 second duration/CD thing or just didn't put it in yet
- Genesis interacts weirdly with haste with the duration scaling down with haste. For example, at the haste level of the pre-made 90 Druid, it has a 2.86 second duration.
-Cenarion Ward looks like it is going to be a ridiculously strong talent. Each tick of it heals for about 3k. In comparison, a Healing Touch heals for ~5k non Crit and a Ysera's Gift tick is 700
-The Bloom portion of Lifebloom blooms for as much as a Healing Touch if you glyph Blooming
-The Travel glyph is really really amazing in non flying zones. It's basically an instant cast land mount with the same 100% movement speed as a mount.
-Wild Growth doesn't interact with/consume Nature's Swiftness or Omen of Clarity procs, even though it has a cast time

[stormgust]

So, on Alpha right now, without really getting a chance to test much
- Efflo still has only a 3 second cooldown and lasts for 5 minutes. I'm not sure if they scrapped the 30 second duration/CD thing or just didn't put it in yet

NYI Is my guess. The long announced SotF change is also missing.

- Genesis interacts weirdly with haste with the duration scaling down with haste. For example, at the haste level of the pre-made 90 Druid, it has a 2.86 second duration.

They just didn't get around to fix it to 3s duration, it's still scaling with haste (which it shouldn't as then it would double dip from haste)

-Cenarion Ward looks like it is going to be a ridiculously strong talent. Each tick of it heals for about 3k. In comparison, a Healing Touch heals for ~5k non Crit and a Ysera's Gift tick is 700

That's because MaxHP scaling doesn't kick in until level 91. Should be equal (if not the other way round) at level 100.

-The Bloom portion of Lifebloom blooms for as much as a Healing Touch if you glyph Blooming

Didn't we already anticipate this? They completely turned around the way we use LB. In WoD the only reason you'd ever have to not let it bloom would be, if the efficiency/heal gained by blooming is negligible relative to the efficiency gained by the HoT component. So either we end up with a cost prohibitve LB (has to account for HT, Bloom and 1.0s of HT casttime -> can't see anything below 25% basemana here) or a moderate mana cost paired with a rather weak bloom.
The 1st option would completely alter the way we use the spell in PvE (i.e. it's a preplanned tank burst instead of a tankbuffer), the 2nd wouldn't go well with the PvP crowd I'd assume (don't know for sure). Fixing that via a glyph? Can't really think of anything which wouldn't be required for PvE to be honest.

-Wild Growth doesn't interact with/consume Nature's Swiftness or Omen of Clarity procs, even though it has a cast time

It's not a direct heal, but we can at least hope they'll change it (at least for moment of clarity it would be nice).

[Gumboy]

Wild growth being a cast time is really throwing me off, I am so used to having it for movement lol :P going to take a long time to get used to. Oh well I'm going paladin for WoD anyway, but r druid will still be my alt D:

[Tiberria]

Some spell numbers with my Druid (ilvl 576) on beta at level 90 - all numbers assuming Harmony is up but no other procs

Health - 86,436
Mastery - 37.6%
SP - 2174

Healing Touch - 851 mana - 10,828
Regrowth - 1702 mana - 6040 Initial heal plus 330 ticks x 6 = 1980 - Total Heal - 8020
Efflo - 1998 mana - 1947 per tick
Rejuv - 777 mana - 2575 per tick x 6 ticks (will be 7 with levelling perk) = 15,450
Lifebloom (glyphed) - 370 mana - 1328 per tick - Bloom - 15,442
Swiftmend - 1791 mana - 15,120
Wild Growth - 4070 mana - 14,733 total per target x 6 (assuming glyph) = 88,398 total healing
Tranquility - 1702 mana - 8630 per tick per target x 4 ticks x 20 players = 690,400 total healing in a 20 man raid

[Ampallotta]

Anyone see if Wild Growth's HoT still work with SotF rather than just faster cast?

[Mugz]

Anyone see if Wild Growth's HoT still work with SotF rather than just faster cast?

It's being strange. The cast time is not reduced, and the HoT isn't sped up, but the healing from the HoT is increased by ~100%

[theburned]

That's exactly what I said?


You get 400% more on someone who just had a 800% rejuvenation ticking on him. Has to be seen wether it's worth to spend 23% (12.5% over a second rejuvenation) on additional 400% in more than a handful of cases.

in most cases this might be the case, but that does not remove the fact that there will be fights that require a lot of healing where this talent will come in handy.

- - - Updated - - -

It's being strange. The cast time is not reduced, and the HoT isn't sped up, but the healing from the HoT is increased by ~100%

they changed this to nerf the talents usage with wild growth slightly weaker, as 100% haste would still amount for a 100% increase in healing while still giving lower gcd and shorter cast time.

[stormgust]

in most cases this might be the case, but that does not remove the fact that there will be fights that require a lot of healing where this talent will come in handy.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not "requires a lot of healing", it's "requires a lot of healing on a limited number of targets in a "small" timeintervall". It's really just regrowth with the additional perk, that you have to target it 15s before you actually need it. Case distinction actually shows, that for any scenario where we'd actually want to use RG/SM we already have option which do the same, just with less restrictions [assuming reasonable numbers on RG/SM - i'm quite aware that at 5% basemana/1000% sp you'd be entirely stupid not to choose it].

Though to be fair, once you do similar considerations for germination, you'd probably end up picking MoC. Germination mostly falls apart, because you do not have the GCD's to expand in onto a significant amount of targets [at most 6 targets - 1GCD is for LB]. On 6 targets though, you really just have to compare it yet again with regrowth. Though, at least germination could be saved - add Swift Rejuvenation [and possibly allow haste to reduce GCD's below 1s] -> you actualy gain HPS [vs. HPS spikes on MoC via affordable regrowths].

It's one of those problems with the new healing design, If people can savely stay below 100% for longer periods, you'd usually have some time to delay the healing requirered, i.e. enough for an additional regrowth/ht. Once SM+WG is on CD, you'd just end up picking the best targeted option available, i.e. first meet your required HPS, then go by efficiency. It's basically HT4/HT11 (where HT4/HT11 are actually variables and you can/are forced to substitute RG/HT/RJ, possibly both the same), just that you get to use all your CD's rotationally (because they're strictly superior to HTX).

[Tiberria]

The problem with Moment of Clarity is that it forces you to use Regrowth or Healing Touch immediately when it procs whether that is something that you wanted to do or not, or forces you to choose to waste the proc. In some cases, it actually becomes worse than a regular Omen of Clarity proc, because you lose the control over when to use it. How often do you hold an OoC proc for 5-10 seconds now, because you don't need to cast a direct heal right away, but will in a few seconds?

I think it needs to be changed to one of the following.

1. The 5 second duration only triggers when you cast your first direct heal. This would let you still hold it for a few seconds until a good spot to spam ~3 direct heals in a row.
2. It needs to make all spells, not just RG and HT free for the 5 second window and needs to work basically like our current meta gem

I think (2) might end up being too strong, just because of the huge mana cost of Wild Growth and Genesis. However, they could at least make it also work with Rejuv and Swiftmend or something and it would be perfectly reasonable.

[Floopa]

2. It needs to make all spells, not just RG and HT free for the 5 second window and needs to work basically like our current meta gem

considering u can spam rejuv without going oom @ lvl 100 with epics (the premades proved this) this would be pretty flawed because it would mean you gain mana while doing your most powerful and most efficient heals

in WoD you'll spam rejuv, lifebloom, WG + single target heals to keep the harmony buff active.

moment of clarity is a ST healing talent. germination is an AoE healing talent. rampant growth is a spot healing talent.

what more do u want really? i know you enjoy op shit tiberria but really it's the same for pretty much every healer.

[Tiberria]

considering u can spam rejuv without going oom @ lvl 100 with epics (the premades proved this) this would be pretty flawed because it would mean you gain mana while doing your most powerful and most efficient heals

in WoD you'll spam rejuv, lifebloom, WG + single target heals to keep the harmony buff active.

moment of clarity is a ST healing talent. germination is an AoE healing talent. rampant growth is a spot healing talent.

what more do u want really? i know you enjoy op shit tiberria but really it's the same for pretty much every healer.

Germination really is more of a tank/single target healing talent than an AoE healing talent. Let's say you can keep up 8 Rejuvs at a time through normal spell selection. You can still only keep 8 up with Germination. It's only really valuable if you want supplemental single target healing on a smaller number of targets. It will be strong if damage patterns change significantly in WoD and you have fights where 3-4 people are taking the bulk of the damage that needs to be healed. If it's like most MoP fights, you would still rather more Rejuv coverage than stronger coverage on less targets.

As far as Moment of Clarity, Regrowth is a HPET loss over Rejuv, even when you factor in the 60% Crit bonus and 30% perk bonus to the HoT component. Germination will give you better (and far more reliable) single target healing than Moment of Clarity. Moment of Clarity is a regen talent, Germination is a tank healing talent and Rampant Growth is a mana sink talent - something that greatly increases raw throughput at the cost of HPM.

[Floopa]

fair enough, that's a better way of explaining it. my main point though was that the druid max lvl talents were fine. maybe germination needs some tweaks.

[stormgust]

As far as Moment of Clarity, Regrowth is a HPET loss over Rejuv, even when you factor in the 60% Crit bonus and 30% perk bonus to the HoT component.

The perk bonus is on the direct heal. It's only slightly less HPET actually (glyphed).

Germination will give you better (and far more reliable) single target healing than Moment of Clarity.

Nope. Once you factor in Living Seed (boosted to 50%) RG takes over - LS actually has a chance to contribute quite a bit to effective healing in WoD.

Moment of Clarity is a regen talent,

As you pointed out, it depend on how well one can use regrowth to spotheal. If you're only rarely able to fit two regrowth into those 5 seconds, MoC will be worse than OoC. Then you'd opt for OoC, so that you can throw two rejuvs on your tank when needed/gcd's available [how often that happens has to been testen during raidtests, I doubt that it'll happen all that often - unless they want to turn healing into some kind of incredible boring job]

Germination is a tank healing talent

We have regrowth (glyphed if necessary) for that. There's literally no reason for germination to do the same, unless you want to get rid of regrowth [OoC will have you use it occasionally - because it's free...].

and Rampant Growth is a mana sink talent - something that greatly increases raw throughput at the cost of HPM.

I've pointed out that it's about even with regrowth. The fact that's incredible limited in it's use (restricted to a target, which you had to decide onto 15s prior - unless you want to waste the healing benefit), leaves hardly any room for this talent makes it hardly worth using in PvE. As for PvP, it just doesn't seem right that but one class has to access to a big instant heal, basically without a CD, healing for a considerable amount (with an affordable mana cost for PvE reasons), when you just went ahead and had instant heal removed across all classes.

Ugh, I better stop thinking about our T100. The more I think about it, the more awful each of those choices actually seems. Can probably described as "you now need one less keybind, remove either of the following: regrowth or rejuvenation".

[Tiberria]

The perk bonus is on the direct heal. It's only slightly less HPET actually (glyphed).


Nope. Once you factor in Living Seed (boosted to 50%) RG takes over - LS actually has a chance to contribute quite a bit to effective healing in WoD.


As you pointed out, it depend on how well one can use regrowth to spotheal. If you're only rarely able to fit two regrowth into those 5 seconds, MoC will be worse than OoC. Then you'd opt for OoC, so that you can throw two rejuvs on your tank when needed/gcd's available [how often that happens has to been testen during raidtests, I doubt that it'll happen all that often - unless they want to turn healing into some kind of incredible boring job]


We have regrowth (glyphed if necessary) for that. There's literally no reason for germination to do the same, unless you want to get rid of regrowth [OoC will have you use it occasionally - because it's free...].


I've pointed out that it's about even with regrowth. The fact that's incredible limited in it's use (restricted to a target, which you had to decide onto 15s prior - unless you want to waste the healing benefit), leaves hardly any room for this talent makes it hardly worth using in PvE. As for PvP, it just doesn't seem right that but one class has to access to a big instant heal, basically without a CD, healing for a considerable amount (with an affordable mana cost for PvE reasons), when you just went ahead and had instant heal removed across all classes.

Ugh, I better stop thinking about our T100. The more I think about it, the more awful each of those choices actually seems. Can probably described as "you now need one less keybind, remove either of the following: regrowth or rejuvenation".

With the level 90 numbers that I tested over the weekend, Regrowth is 7.1 HPM and Rejuv is 16.5 HPM. That doesn't include Living Seed, but even assuming a 75% Regrowth crit percentage and full effective healing on Living Seed, the HPM of Regrowth would only go up to about 9. Also, with the 6.0 changes (12 second Regrowth duration and perk buffing the periodic effect by 30%), Regrowth is 45% direct heal / 55% HoT. It is going to be an HPS and HPM loss to glyph it at any Crit level, and the glyph will only really be if you want guaranteed burst at the cost of total throughput. With the huge discrepancy in efficiency between Rejuv and Regrowth, unless mana is a complete joke, we absolutely are going to want Rejuv to shoulder as much of the load for tank healing as possible, with Regrowth only for emergencies and OOC procs. Healing Touch (14.9 HPM) will end up being our primary tank healing tool when we need more single target than Lifebloom+double Rejuv.

Using Rampant Growth as a playstyle (i.e. consuming Soul of the Forest procs with 200% strength Rejuvs and consuming them after 5/6 ticks with a Swiftmend) is about 30% more HPET/HPS and works out to 10 HPM with current beta numbers. It's a non trivial amount superior to Regrowth spam, but far less efficient than the "normal rotation" i.e. Lifebloom + Rejuv spam + WG on CD.

- - - Updated - - -

The level 100 server is up, and I can confirm that despite the way the tooltip is worded, Moment of Clarity actually makes all spells cost 0 mana during the 5 seconds it's up. It is essentially the legendary meta gem reincarnated as a level 100 talent. If this stays, that talent is going to be incredibly, incredibly strong, because neither of the other 2 talents really add definitive throughput gain/ are very situational.

[stormgust]

With the level 90 numbers that I tested over the weekend, Regrowth is 7.1 HPM and Rejuv is 16.5 HPM

Are you sure that you aren't using an entirely different number set here? Though, comparing RG/RJ HPM without taking OoC/MoC into account seems rather pointless here [and why exactly did you switch from HPET to HPM?].

That doesn't include Living Seed, but even assuming a 75% Regrowth crit percentage and full effective healing on Living Seed, the HPM of Regrowth would only go up to about 9.

Why not assume 100% regrowth crits?

Also, with the 6.0 changes (12 second Regrowth duration and perk buffing the periodic effect by 30%), Regrowth is 45% direct heal / 55% HoT.

So, while stating that it actually increases the direct heal, the perk actually boosts the periodic effect? Or am I missing something entirely? Your entire argument more or less depends on the fact, that the perk increases periodic healing. And even if the perk would affect the HoT, regrowth would still be 70% directheal/ 30% hot precrit, so 80/20 once it crits. So either I fail horribly at math, or you assumed numbers just to make them fit your argument.

Using Rampant Growth as a playstyle (i.e. consuming Soul of the Forest procs with 200% strength Rejuvs and consuming them after 5/6 ticks with a Swiftmend) is about 30% more HPET/HPS and works out to 10 HPM with current beta numbers. It's a non trivial amount superior to Regrowth spam, but far less efficient than the "normal rotation" i.e. Lifebloom + Rejuv spam + WG on CD.

Let's recheck that once we've figured out on how exactly the regrowth perk works. Just a small reminder prior though: if we can assume a fully effective SM after a 900%SP rejuvenation, we can also assume a fully effective living seed after regrowth.

The level 100 server is up, and I can confirm that despite the way the tooltip is worded, Moment of Clarity actually makes all spells cost 0 mana during the 5 seconds it's up. It is essentially the legendary meta gem reincarnated as a level 100 talent. If this stays, that talent is going to be incredibly, incredibly strong, because neither of the other 2 talents really add definitive throughput gain/ are very situational.

Yep. They'll most likely nerf MoC to be as situational as germination/rg, instead of buffing the others to be on par. At least then I could pick germination without a second thought and get the ability to move some HPS from raid to tank healing [if needed, assuming rg isn't superior here] - or actually swap to RG whenever I know there's a limited set of people which require a huge amount of healinh [unless I'm entirely off with my regrowth numbers, that's 60% sp more at 10% basemana less , not counting OoC]

[Tiberria]

You are right; the Regrowth perk is actually applying to the direct heal, not to the HoT. Here are some numbers that I came up with from level 100 testing. These are with the pre-made ilvl 660 gear (I think 690 will be the first raid tier epic level).

The pre-mades had 13% raid buffed Crit and 22% raid buffed mastery.



-Glyphed and Unglyphed Regrowth is almost exactly the same amount of expected output at that 13% Crit level. As we get more Crit, it becomes a theoretical loss
-Swiftmend as a standalone spell is pretty much dog shit. Regrowth looks like it's going to be a better choice in almost all situations, with Swiftmend only having value to drive Soul of the Forest procs or when you absolutely need a direct heal/Harmony refresh while moving
-Soul of the Forest will lose a lot of value compared to where it is on live, because Swiftmend is no longer efficient or something we generally want to use on CD to begin with. I suspect it will mostly be taken when/if we take Rampant Growth with Incarnation being the more default talent.
-Maintaining Harmony uptime will be less brainless/automatic if Swiftmend is situational and not used on CD.
-Lifebloom probably needs to have its mana cost tripled to bring it in line with the single stack/triple output change. Otherwise, it's ridiculously efficient (which I guess isn't terrible, but other spell costs will be balanced around it).
-Efflo is going to be worth casting from an HPM perspective when it can be 50% of it's maximum effectiveness. Below that, it's probably better to ignore it and use the mana on more Rejuvs.
-The Rampant Growth/Soul of the Forest "rotation" - i.e consuming Rejuvs with 1 tick remaining, casting 200% Soul of the Forest Rejuvs is about 28% less HPM and 28% more HPET than straight Rejuv blanketing (obviously we will still use Efflo/LB/WG regardless). That indicates that it's fairly balanced. It's just going to be a matter of whether the damage patterns make that type of healing style viable and whether its mana sustainable. I suspect that it won't be until later tiers.

[stormgust]

-Glyphed and Unglyphed Regrowth is almost exactly the same amount of expected output at that 13% Crit level. As we get more Crit, it becomes a theoretical loss

Your regrowth and regrowth(glyph) got the same direct heal value listed. Something definitely doesn't work out quite right here. A non-crit, if I don't fail at math, should heal for about 3reju ticks, i.e. 6 on crit, 9 for full effective living seed.

-Swiftmend as a standalone spell is pretty much dog shit. Regrowth looks like it's going to be a better choice in almost all situations, with Swiftmend only having value to drive Soul of the Forest procs or when you absolutely need a direct heal/Harmony refresh while moving

The mana cost definitely killed off swiftmend. It either needs to heal for more, or cost less. Though I doubt htat you can do either, without outright turning RG into the best option. That's just one more on the long list as to why RG is simple broken design, a (passive) talent shouldn't require the spell it works to be bad, so that it works out as being balanced with the talent.

-Soul of the Forest will lose a lot of value compared to where it is on live, because Swiftmend is no longer efficient or something we generally want to use on CD to begin with. I suspect it will mostly be taken when/if we take Rampant Growth with Incarnation being the more default talent.

Yep. WG and SM being expensive seriously hampered this combination. If we don't have enough mana, we can't really use WG/SotF for what it actually supposed to do: peak HPS - We won't have the mana to fill the freed up GCD's with other heals. [i.e. it's basically trading 4+ reju casts for WG/SM at this point.
At least by the loooks of it, MoC could possible fix this as it makes SM/WG free to cast. [even more of being forced into T60 by choice at T100 ... T100 looks worse and worse the more you think about it's implications]

-Maintaining Harmony uptime will be less brainless/automatic if Swiftmend is situational and not used on CD.

There still OoC casts for that. Should work out mostly fine.

-Lifebloom probably needs to have its mana cost tripled to bring it in line with the single stack/triple output change. Otherwise, it's ridiculously efficient (which I guess isn't terrible, but other spell costs will be balanced around it).

Well, yeah. It's still a complete turnaround on how we use the spell though [will let it bloom].

-Efflo is going to be worth casting from an HPM perspective when it can be 50% of it's maximum effectiveness. Below that, it's probably better to ignore it and use the mana on more Rejuvs.

As I said, drop on tanks most of the time on movement "heavy" fights.

-The Rampant Growth/Soul of the Forest "rotation" - i.e consuming Rejuvs with 1 tick remaining, casting 200% Soul of the Forest Rejuvs is about 28% less HPM and 28% more HPET than straight Rejuv blanketing (obviously we will still use Efflo/LB/WG regardless). That indicates that it's fairly balanced. It's just going to be a matter of whether the damage patterns make that type of healing style viable and whether its mana sustainable. I suspect that it won't be until later tiers.

It's not that simply. It's not "28% more HPET". It's "at most 28% more HPET on a target, which was fixed (up to) 15s prior" (also 28% only if you don't want to waste reju ticks). Sure, you may pick RG/Sotf on later tiers [IF mana allows you to AFTER you switched to WG/SotF], but you probably won't because it's to restrictive in it's use.

[Ampallotta]

MoC currently working as intended (like current legendary meta). Nice.

[Tiberria]

Your regrowth and regrowth(glyph) got the same direct heal value listed. Something definitely doesn't work out quite right here. A non-crit, if I don't fail at math, should heal for about 3reju ticks, i.e. 6 on crit, 9 for full effective living seed.


The mana cost definitely killed off swiftmend. It either needs to heal for more, or cost less. Though I doubt htat you can do either, without outright turning RG into the best option. That's just one more on the long list as to why RG is simple broken design, a (passive) talent shouldn't require the spell it works to be bad, so that it works out as being balanced with the talent.


Yep. WG and SM being expensive seriously hampered this combination. If we don't have enough mana, we can't really use WG/SotF for what it actually supposed to do: peak HPS - We won't have the mana to fill the freed up GCD's with other heals. [i.e. it's basically trading 4+ reju casts for WG/SM at this point.
At least by the loooks of it, MoC could possible fix this as it makes SM/WG free to cast. [even more of being forced into T60 by choice at T100 ... T100 looks worse and worse the more you think about it's implications]


There still OoC casts for that. Should work out mostly fine.


Well, yeah. It's still a complete turnaround on how we use the spell though [will let it bloom].


As I said, drop on tanks most of the time on movement "heavy" fights.


It's not that simply. It's not "28% more HPET". It's "at most 28% more HPET on a target, which was fixed (up to) 15s prior" (also 28% only if you don't want to waste reju ticks). Sure, you may pick RG/Sotf on later tiers [IF mana allows you to AFTER you switched to WG/SotF], but you probably won't because it's to restrictive in it's use.

I have the Crit % built into the formula for total healing. The Crit and Mastery (for periodic effects) is not included in the direct heal or HoT columns (and I took the HoT numbers with Harmony not up). In that formula, I have the direct heal for unglyphed Regrowth multiplied by 1.73 (60% Crit baseline+13% on gear) and the direct heal for glyphed Regrowth multiplied by 2.0 (guaranteed Crit). I also have the difference in Crit rating baked into the average Living Seed healing numbers.

If you take Moment of Clarity (which I suspect will be the "default" talent at low gear levels), we will be spamming Rejuv during OoC procs (and WG if it's up). Even with them being free and only healing output taken into account, RG and SM are less HPET than Rejuv. Therefore, we will still have to force ourselves to cast extra Healing Touches that we didn't necessarily want to cast.