Cloak and Dagger remains a slap in the face.

[Mormolyce]

Perhaps you should have someone slap you in the face for comparison purposes.

leeching and cheat death are worthless.

They are most certainly not.

[Lazuli]

Not quite, it's actually only counts your melee dps, ignores things like poisons, rupture etc. Makes it significantly worse for Assassination and Subtlety.

That is pretty dumb but it is great for combat. I use it to solo some harder stuffs.

[Powerogue]

I still love it, assuming WoD hasn't nerfed it any. Unlike Shadowstep, it's automatic, has no cooldown, and has a much longer range. Ping pong ping pong, teleporting from one monster to another is something I've wanted since I rolled a rogue, I just didn't know it yet.

leeching and cheat death are worthless.

for pvp its feint or bust and it looks like that ain't changing for wod.

I've always used leech because I prefer having that sustained healing. Much like C&D it's also automatic. Perfect for soloing, and not half bad for raiding either as I can gain survivability without losing a speck of concentration.

[Packing an i5]

I like CND because it is passive but it is pretty pathetic outside the opener in a serious pvp situation. (3s) It was only insane with shadow dance and that was obv OP and was taken away. Skilled players can use it if they feel like it but your just gimping yourself by not taking step to eat traps for your healer or burst of speed which makes it really easy to reset behind a pillar, the more times you enter stealth during a game the better stealth= not being attacked, option of using Crowd control, More burst as sub "Find weakness".

When it came out it was garbage for the other specs, my favorite use for it is mid air attacking and killing poorly geared players on their flying mounts.

I would prefer just about anything to cloak and dagger how about another passive that just lowers the Cooldown time on some abilities or it gives you an extra charge of vanish.

[Beet]

Wow. Two rant posts about how bad a talent C&D is(to which I agree), but not a single suggestion how to make it better. I am impressed...not.

Okay then how would you make it better, or what would you put in its place instead? Bear in mind, that the 3rd talent tier is our movement section, whatever you put in there, has to be a viable alternative to ShS and BoS.

Now, here comes the problem, my over-excited friends: There are not many ways to move around in this game while in combat. Either you run faster, or you blink. That's basically it.

Why do you expect them to give ways to make it better? We're players not designers. It's up to Blizzard to replace a shitty talent. It's up to them to design a new one.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to remove Cloak and Dagger and BoS. Give all rogues Shadowstep baseline and make that talent tier do different things with Shadowstep or something similar.

[Duravian]

Oh, this is all about pvp. No wonder I have no clue wtf we're talking about. Set my pvp life on the shelf at the end of cata. Ah, I remember getting super pissed about all that balancing crap. Now I only get upset when I see a warlock somehow pulling 3 times my dps on a huge aoe by what appears to be a simple cast of Rain of Fire. Still so much more peaceful.

[Packing an i5]

Oh, this is all about pvp. No wonder I have no clue wtf we're talking about. Set my pvp life on the shelf at the end of cata. Ah, I remember getting super pissed about all that balancing crap. Now I only get upset when I see a warlock somehow pulling 3 times my dps on a huge aoe by what appears to be a simple cast of Rain of Fire. Still so much more peaceful.

I wish I liked pve then maybe i would also know that peace but I dont the urge to pvp is too strong but its too frustrating because of how frail the class is and how much uptime is needed to do the same dps another class would do in mere seconds.

just not enticed by the idea of slaying monsters to get loot to slay harder monsters anymore.

[Fiska]

Been using Cloak and Dagger while leveling through the Draenor zones in beta. It's a good talent for that purpose since you can kill stuff faster than Shadowstep comes off of cooldown, and Cloak and Dagger has the range advantage. Teleporting between mobs is a luxury. Cloak and Dagger remains a good talent for any outdoor activities (questing) once you hit lvl 100. It's not good for raids, but I don't see that as a problem.

[Sesshou]

Teleporting between mobs is a luxury. Cloak and Dagger remains a good talent for any outdoor activities (questing) once you hit lvl 100. It's not good for raids, but I don't see that as a problem.

I don't see it at level cap honestly. I'd probably not bother changing from step and instead do what I pretty much always do and mount around to gather up a group and AE them all at once.

[Fiska]

I don't see it at level cap honestly. I'd probably not bother changing from step and instead do what I pretty much always do and mount around to gather up a group and AE them all at once.

With that strategy you probably don't need any of the mobility talents, or even Stealth. Which is fine. But it doesn't change the fact that some players prefer to start from Stealth and engage one mob at a time. And for that job Cloak and Dagger is very good.

[Rucati]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to remove Cloak and Dagger and BoS. Give all rogues Shadowstep baseline and make that talent tier do different things with Shadowstep or something similar.

This is probably one of the best ideas I've seen in a while. BoS is so absurdly strong (and will continue to be in WoD) that using anything else simply makes no sense. Shadowstep is a fun ability with both offensive and defensive capabilities, while BoS is just basically a passive sprint that breaks roots and not very engaging.

Cloak and Dagger is a cool idea, but it serves no defensive purpose and isn't very useful outside of Subterfuge.

[Fiska]

Cloak and Dagger is a cool idea, but it serves no defensive purpose and isn't very useful outside of Subterfuge.

It's probably not meant to serve a defensive purpose. To me it seems players always complain about Cloak and Dagger because it doesn't work in the environment they want it to. When instead they should try to figure out in what environment it works. I think it's globally agreed that PvP and Raiding is not a good environment for Cloak and Dagger, so look beyond that.

[Sesshou]

With that strategy you probably don't need any of the mobility talents, or even Stealth. Which is fine. But it doesn't change the fact that some players prefer to start from Stealth and engage one mob at a time. And for that job Cloak and Dagger is very good.

You don't. But your pro CnD argument was higher efficiency over shs for soloing. At cap when you can just AE groups down, that is the most efficient way to kill stuff and as you pointed out you don't need a mobility talent so CnD and shs are equal.

[Linneth]

It's probably not meant to serve a defensive purpose. To me it seems players always complain about Cloak and Dagger because it doesn't work in the environment they want it to. When instead they should try to figure out in what environment it works. I think it's globally agreed that PvP and Raiding is not a good environment for Cloak and Dagger, so look beyond that.

Seeing that BoS allows you to outrun epic ground mounts without Garrison Stables perk, I would say that BoS is still the better choice when leveling.

[Fiska]

Seeing that BoS allows you to outrun epic ground mounts without Garrison Stables perk, I would say that BoS is still the better choice when leveling.

Are you talking about traversing huge distances? As in distances where you're not killing mobs. In that case we're not talking about the same area of usage, and you could potentially just respec between BoS and CnD depending on which area you're in. If you could be bothered with such..

You don't. But your pro CnD argument was higher efficiency over shs for soloing. At cap when you can just AE groups down, that is the most efficient way to kill stuff and as you pointed out you don't need a mobility talent so CnD and shs are equal.

You're not decked in BiS gear when leveling or whenever a new patch comes out. Where in MoP are you AoEing groups down? Apart from dailies there are three main locations I use Cloak and Dagger. Farming Shaohao rep at Sanctuary, farming Gulp Frogs for tokens and farming bones on Isle of Giants.

[Verain]

I think it's globally agreed that PvP and Raiding is not a good environment for Cloak and Dagger, so look beyond that.

Can I start picking, say, warrior talents and turning them into things that don't have PvP and raiding as an environment that they are good in?


If a talent isn't good in pvp, and isn't good in raiding, it needs replaced.

Seeing that BoS allows you to outrun epic ground mounts without Garrison Stables perk, I would say that BoS is still the better choice when leveling.

Err, isn't the guild perk getting baselined tomorrow?

The only place you can outrun a ground mount is a battleground on live, and only if you take nightstalker as well. In fact, you may even have to be nelf, I'm not sure.

[Linneth]

Are you talking about traversing huge distances? As in distances where you're not killing mobs. In that case we're not talking about the same area of usage, and you could potentially just respec between BoS and CnD depending on which area you're in. If you could be bothered with such..

I doubt you'll get much use of CnD when the expansion launches unless you are playing on some empty server. Anyway, if the talent only shines when you are on a killing spree when soloing, then it can be regarded as situational enough to either be pruned or baselined (not looking at the pvp implications it would have on openers).

Err, isn't the guild perk getting baselined tomorrow?

The only place you can outrun a ground mount is a battleground on live, and only if you take nightstalker as well. In fact, you may even have to be nelf, I'm not sure.

With the changes to movement speed in WoD, the guild perk has gone from being a multiplicative bonus to an additive one (at least that was the case less than a month ago in beta).

Edit. Yup, fresh from beta:


Movement speed with epic ground mount & guild perk


BoS+Boots Enchant+Nightstalker

You could become nelf for extra movement, and I am pretty sure that there must be some obscure low-level gear that increased movement speed (not that it would be worth it, tbh).

[Fiska]

If a talent isn't good in pvp, and isn't good in raiding, it needs replaced.

Believe it or not, Blizzard doesn't design everything around PvP and raiding. If you believe otherwise you're going to be disappointed a lot..

I doubt you'll get much use of CnD when the expansion launches unless you are playing on some empty server. Anyway, if the talent only shines when you are on a killing spree when soloing, then it can be regarded as situational enough to either be pruned or baselined (not looking at the pvp implications it would have on openers).

I play on a full realm, but all the leveling in MoP felt pretty lonely. We'll see. I don't agree on that assessment though. Among the character customizations Blizzard have given us are talents, glyphs, class specializations and gear, and not all of them work equally well in all environments. You'll see similarities to Cloak and Dagger across the entire board. The only problem about CnD is the mindset that anything besides PvP and raiding doesn't count.

[Kwickslash]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need to remove Cloak and Dagger and BoS. Give all rogues Shadowstep baseline and make that talent tier do different things with Shadowstep or something similar.

I actually love this idea. Gives them the opportunity to bring back old utility that was removed for it and new utility. Three different talents off the top of my head:

- Shadowstep also removes snares and roots (which it originally did in BC) and grants immunity from them for 3 seconds. Attractive Battleground option

- Shadowstep increases damage of abilities for x amount of seconds after use (similar to how it acted in BC as well except not just for your next damaging ability). Attractive PvE option.

- Shadowstep gains an additional charge if used within 10 seconds. Cooldown timer begins after second charge is used or expires (allows Shadowstep kick on caster in arena and Shadowstep back to original target). Attractive Rated Battleground or Arena option.

[Tyderi]

Guys. Holinka said Burst of Speed is balanced. Remember, being uncatchable is balanced because rogues wear leather.