[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Enitzu]

You are saying that SV is better because you think other classes can do it better anyway..

No I am saying SV is better because sims say it's better. You are saying MM is better because they are the burst class. I'm saying that is not the case. Can MM burst, yes very well. Are they the best burst, I don't think so personally and all logs I have seen support that. So staying MM for the burst is not a valid argument in my book.

Honestly the only argument is preference from everything in this thread. The difference between the 2 is what 1%? 2% at most unless you are talking 3+ targets then SV is the clear winner between the 2.

[st33l]

Yep but effin is wrong in this case. MM Hunters are exceptionally good on bursting adds down, while they are in middle of the pack when it comes to long execute phases, where warriors/shadows/ferals are potentially better. You can think that hunters are made to flip burgers in a mcdonals, but that's your vision of the class, not what they actually can or can't do.

Many times for progression you don't need to do max possible DPS, but better possible DPS. and they are not synonyms in those cases

An additional factor for DPS is reliability - having strong burst, but really dependent on ToTH procs, is not always ideal. Particularly if there *are* other classes in the raid that can handle the burst more reliably, why would you want to use a class to do it instead which may or may not deliver?

SV will at least give reliable sustained DPS and a fuckton more mobility. Particularly going to 3 targets and above, burst won't even be a question anymore, MM falls just way too far behind.

[Deleted]

Just a question I asked some pages ago - if I want to go MM/SV and switch depending on the fight, is it OK to change my gems, enchants and scope to MS?

Since there is a big difference between MS and crit for SV but the stats are almost equal for MM.

Would be very grateful for an answer

[Rugtoad]

@Enitzu - you started the burst debate by directly addressing Azortharion's points on MM burst potential. Don't try to backtrack now. I could quote you, but it's only one page back.

Even if you can't get a CA aimed shot off on a Spore Shooter (or any add that is high prio that doesn't live long), your chances of getting a Chimaera and/or at least one Kill Shot are very high. If not, you're just not switching fast enough.
Oh, and as for my raid handling Spore Shooters, it is all ranged. We just didn't have a Moonkin at all until last night (damn you SoO burnout), so... yeah we had some uptime on them.

If you haven't seen a 100k opener, your hunters aren't geared/aren't playing well/aren't praying to RNGsus enough, or you're just not looking at top logs on WCL at all.

[Argotar]

Anyone get sims up at around a 663 ilvl for SV vs MM? Obviously gear won't be identical but I'm just curious. We're doing more mythic progression tonight so I probably won't play be playing that much SV until I'm more comfortable but I wanna see if it'd be worth it for me. I tried it yesterday on Kargath normal and pulled like 21k lol so I absolutely need practice with it. Other than that, is there any more sims other than the ones that went up yesterday? Is SV still pulling ahead? I'm sorry for not looking myself I'm in a rush.

[opbear]

Are they the best burst, I don't think so personally and all logs I have seen support that. So staying MM for the burst is not a valid argument in my book.

Who can burst better than MM? Give me classes and specs, and how they do it and what they need to do it.

[Rugtoad]

Just a question I asked some pages ago - if I want to go MM/SV and switch depending on the fight, is it OK to change my gems, enchants and scope to MS?

Since there is a big difference between MS and crit for SV but the stats are almost equal for MM.

Would be very grateful for an answer

For my character, changing my 2 gems and all enchants from Crit to MS was no change for MM, but a few hundred gain for SV. You'll just have to Sim it out and see what happens.

[Azortharion]

No I am saying SV is better because sims say it's better. You are saying MM is better because they are the burst class. I'm saying that is not the case. Can MM burst, yes very well. Are they the best burst, I don't think so personally and all logs I have seen support that. So staying MM for the burst is not a valid argument in my book.

Honestly the only argument is preference from everything in this thread. The difference between the 2 is what 1%? 2% at most unless you are talking 3+ targets then SV is the clear winner between the 2.

I am saying that you'll be going MM for certain fights where executing certain mechanics/killing specific targets is of higher importance than whoring the DPS meter.

Don't get me wrong, I whore the fuck out of DPS on farm and will go #ham with Survival when that time comes, but as it stands, consistent damage doesn't give hunters a raid spot. Some things (especially on low-ish iLvl Mythic) need immediate switching and killing. Even if you can't get a Careful Aimed Shot off, it still has a fairly high chance of critting, all focus which can be put into another, right until you hit the 35% mark where you can Kill Shot execute. This is as opposed to just kinda switching and getting Serpent Sting up.. Shit needs to die -now-.

You are also generalizing. Several people have posted sims of them getting lower results with SV, others higher. Effin's and my gearsets in our sims sim SV higher, but SV/MM balancing is so sensitive to trinkets and weapon damage that you simply cannot go "SV master race".

[Huggykaze]

Wouldn't say it's so great in comparison to other classes. If adds have low hp you probably can get them down with Barrage, if they are stronger, like Imp mages/reaver, burst might help you with one, assuming you can line up your CDs just for that phase (which shouldn't be a problem) and RNG won't shit in your face (which is probable), at the same time you can multidot which will probably be more overall gain as Enitzu said.

While I agree that some adds require good burst there are classes which do it better and unless your raid composition is shit or your bursters need to l2p, gimping yourself by 'couple % dps', which btw was crapton just yesterday Azor, just to do something that is being done better by others is just a stupid move. I may agree that going MM for Bracken is actually a good idea, but that depends on how well you can utilize Flamethrower buff as SV as few people have already said.

[Azortharion]

I added a changelog to the OP which should help people not willing to read this occasional clusterfuck (understandably) stay updated. I'll add TL;DR reasoning to any changes in the changelog as well and generally go a tad more in depth in an actual post.

Also added a spec choice section that should help people make their decisions.

[Deleted]

Switch to MS scope at 43% crit buffed (38 unbuffed)
At what ilvl is that roughly achieved, around 57x ilvl or so??

[Azortharion]

Wouldn't say it's so great in comparison to other classes. If adds have low hp you probably can get them down with Barrage, if they are stronger, like Imp mages/reaver, burst might help you with one, assuming you can line up your CDs just for that phase (which shouldn't be a problem) and RNG won't shit in your face (which is probable), at the same time you can multidot which will probably be more overall gain as Enitzu said.

While I agree that some adds require good burst there are classes which do it better and unless your raid composition is shit or your bursters need to l2p, gimping yourself by 'couple % dps', which btw was crapton just yesterday Azor, just to do something that is being done better by others is just a stupid move. I may agree that going MM for Bracken is actually a good idea, but that depends on how well you can utilize Flamethrower buff as SV as few people have already said.

A few percent is a crapton when top DPS is what you're looking for. When you are progressing and you are strategically placing damage where damage needs to be done and using whatever strengths your class has to make this happen, such differences in DPS quickly become negligible.

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Switch to MS scope at 43% crit buffed (38 unbuffed)
At what ilvl is that roughly achieved, around 57x ilvl or so??

You could have full 685 gear and not be crit capped if you're unlucky enough.

It's achieved when it is achieved. Some people are sub-660 and reaching that cap. I am 661 and a few hundred crit off myself.

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Everyone who wants to play with SimCraft: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

Don't use the link from earlier. Nightly(ish) releases of SimCraft are put up top on that page. I am trying to suck the wanger of a SimCraft dev to have a folder on there to make larger-scale sim results public there.

I'd bookmark it if I were you, and don't run a sim before checking your update is the newest one.

Furthermore, be critical of any results you might get, especially if they differ from what me/others are getting by a lot. Just ask, I'll try to be nicer when people ask questions even if they've been answered before.

[Huggykaze]

But MM is great at burst if not exceptional. You just need to decide as a raid if that's the Forte your position needs to present during the encounter. As more and more gear befalls my raid I find it less and less necessary to have snap burst and more valuable to have a higher, consistent potency. If you're having spore shooter trouble and you're playing survival, you're doing it wrong. MM would be an invaluable asset in that situation to alleviate progression pains until the slack is tightened.

Agreed with that, still if your burst classes can't do that then they are doing something wrong or your compo sucks. And while I agree that in such case going MM is a good option (same as SV was a good option if you had problems taking down the shield on Ko'ragh, but argument was dismissed with same reasoning I'm giving here: make your xxx l2p), but it doesn't change the fact that something is srsly wrong with your guildmates or their gear (which would mean they didn't really try to gear up in 3 weeks before raids started).

[Rugtoad]

Now that we have choice between specs, like we wanted, we can't get along. :c

[Azortharion]

Most raiders do not have control of how good/bad their teammates are. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and carry the slack, or join a better guild. For many people, the former is a more pleasant option.

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Now that we have choice between specs, like we wanted, we can't get along. :c

It's awful but amusing all the same. I don't think the hunter community has had this kind of discussion ever. All tiers have had something irrefutably best with the exception of very few fights in that tier perhaps. (BM was best single-target in 5.4 but you still went Surv on Thok. Surv was better before January 8th but you still went BM for Protectors) etc.

[Enitzu]

I am saying that you'll be going MM for certain fights where executing certain mechanics/killing specific targets is of higher importance than whoring the DPS meter.

Don't get me wrong, I whore the fuck out of DPS on farm and will go #ham with Survival when that time comes, but as it stands, consistent damage doesn't give hunters a raid spot. Some things (especially on low-ish iLvl Mythic) need immediate switching and killing. Even if you can't get a Careful Aimed Shot off, it still has a fairly high chance of critting, all focus which can be put into another, right until you hit the 35% mark where you can Kill Shot execute. This is as opposed to just kinda switching and getting Serpent Sting up.. Shit needs to die -now-.

You are also generalizing. Several people have posted sims of them getting lower results with SV, others higher. Effin's and my gearsets in our sims sim SV higher, but SV/MM balancing is so sensitive to trinkets and weapon damage that you simply cannot go "SV master race".

And you may well be correct in this. Like I said I have not done mythic brackenspore yet (will be doing this tonight more than likely) so I do not know how it will play out there. But in heroic it is absolutely pointless for me to swap to MM for shooters since they are dead usually before my LnL procs were gone (barrage > LnL). Could I run MM and get a KS off, yes I could but it is not needed. If that happens to not be the case on mythic then I am more than willing to swap.

[Bontar]

Just trying to better understand SimCraft. I downloaded the latest version from Azor's link (603-19 released Dec. 16). The spell query function is still showing the same values for serpent sting and improved focus fire as the older version I was using before. The base value for improved focus fire in the spell query is still 2 not 5. Am I just using this tool completely wrong, and does that mean I was double-dipping the hotfix buffs with the overrides I used earlier?

[Huggykaze]

A few percent is a crapton when top DPS is what you're looking for. When you are progressing and you are strategically placing damage where damage needs to be done and using whatever strengths your class has to make this happen, such differences in DPS quickly become negligible.

Can't disagree, but I think that could be read from my previous post. I'm not saying that you should never go MM and stick to SV. But sticking on every fight just for better burst is as stupid. One should choose whatever his raid compo encourages.

[Azortharion]

And you may well be correct in this. Like I said I have not done mythic brackenspore yet (will be doing this tonight more than likely) so I do not know how it will play out there. But in heroic it is absolutely pointless for me to swap to MM for shooters since they are dead usually before my LnL procs were gone (barrage > LnL). Could I run MM and get a KS off, yes I could but it is not needed. If that happens to not be the case on mythic then I am more than willing to swap.

It applies to Heroic, too, if you're in a shitpug, but obviously Mythic is just harder and so the need for this burst becomes more apparent.

[Enitzu]

@Enitzu - you started the burst debate by directly addressing Azortharion's points on MM burst potential. Don't try to backtrack now. I could quote you, but it's only one page back.

Even if you can't get a CA aimed shot off on a Spore Shooter (or any add that is high prio that doesn't live long), your chances of getting a Chimaera and/or at least one Kill Shot are very high. If not, you're just not switching fast enough.
Oh, and as for my raid handling Spore Shooters, it is all ranged. We just didn't have a Moonkin at all until last night (damn you SoO burnout), so... yeah we had some uptime on them.

If you haven't seen a 100k opener, your hunters aren't geared/aren't playing well/aren't praying to RNGsus enough, or you're just not looking at top logs on WCL at all.

I am not backtracking on anything. I know exactly what I said. MM's burst is higher. What I said was that we did not 'need' to be MM because of burst. There are other classes that do it better and easier, ie mage, rogue, war, frost dk, ret pally. And those classes for the most part are not reliant on execute phases or careful aim buffs.

As far as shooters go, are you talking mythic or heroic? Heroic they die literally in 10 seconds or less. Mythic I don't know. Haven't done it yet but I'll comment tomorrow if we go to him tonight.

As for our luck in drops, yea we have had shit luck. I've coined for the bow 4 times and still have yet to see it on a coin or drop so we are running 640s which is probably causing some of the problems. And yea I don't look at 'top guild' logs. What's the point in that? Normal people don't do feed runs 6 times a week so why would I compare us to them?