Incentives for Accepting Lower-Geared Players?

[Deadite]

Why are you entitled to have them slow down for you? Has it occurred to you that they've run that instance dozens of times and just want to farm their ring-valor as quickly as possible? Why do they deserve to be called cunts by you because they don't feel obligated to help you? I can't imagine why they're not lining up to help you with your winning personality.

I am not entitled to anything nor would i join with said cunts. As to why i think they are cunts is they seem to be the same folk who look down on people who potter along with LFR and then turn around and do everything to put off people that may want to try and do normals and what not. All while they want LFR difficulty in there own runs.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I say a free bonus roll for the boss if the group has a player who has never killed that boss on that difficulty.

That sounds doable and reasonable. I like it!

[QTMcTootie]

People are mostly cunts these days. They will never add even 10 mins to a run if it means taking some guy with bad gear.

Yep. I'm glad I have a good group of IG friends willing to carry me through their H farm runs. Otherwise I wouldn't see anything outside of LFR. I don't feel like I deserve anything beyond LFR, it's just nice that I don't have to worry about hitting some absurd ilvl just to get into a N run. What a joke.

[kary]

"People won't take the time to help me get geared"
then
"I'm too busy to get geared, I don't have the time to spare"

[Mercane]

I am sure that that mythic geared player burst 135k but did not sustain it over the course of the fight.

100k sustained should be more than possible for even slightly mythic geared players, hell I burst to 350k and sustain somewhere around 140-160k- and I'm not even one of the more powerful classes this tier (*cough* not a mage *cough*).

People are mostly cunts these days. They will never add even 10 mins to a run if it means taking some guy with bad gear. People who run pugs aren't interested in any sort of challenge. They want to romp through it like it was LFR and get some free loot. Why do you think they ask for such absurd gear? 99% of them won't take people with gear equal to the instance never mind lower gear.

Why should my run be 10 minutes longer because you want to get carried?

It's not about challenge, getting gear, or the social experience- it's about setting out to do something as fast as possible so I can get it done and go back to posting 'Damn, Daniel' in trade chat for the next 2 hours. You can sit there and call me a cunt all you want, but I choose to run with people that put in the effort to get there gear to such a level that the average 5 man boss lives for ~10 seconds.

It still doesn't make sense to me. Why would anyone enter the place if you demand <20 item levels what the place drops to run it?

Because it's not about the gear? If you're after the gear, join a similarly minded 690 group that's also after gear- don't expect to get picked up into a 730+ group, because you don't belong there if that's your goal.

[kary]

100k sustained should be more than possible for even slightly mythic geared players, hell I burst to 350k and sustain somewhere around 140-160k- and I'm not even one of the more powerful classes this tier (*cough* not a mage *cough*).



Why should my run be 10 minutes longer because you want to get carried?

It's not about challenge, getting gear, or the social experience- it's about setting out to do something as fast as possible so I can get it done and go back to posting 'Damn, Daniel' in trade chat for the next 2 hours. You can sit there and call me a cunt all you want, but I choose to run with people that put in the effort to get there gear to such a level that the average 5 man boss lives for ~10 seconds.



Because it's not about the gear? If you're after the gear, join a similarly minded 690 group that's also after gear- don't expect to get picked up into a 730+ group, because you don't belong there if that's your goal.

I think to this moment people didn't understand the whole "group with your peers" statement.

[Mercane]

I think to this moment people didn't understand the whole "group with your peers" statement.

I try to help people if I'm in the mood for it, or if we're running alts anyway and have an open spot- but people practically demanding to be included in our group on some odd notion that we should feel compelled to bring them along because they are part of the poor, unfortunate group of players that doesn't have a guild, any friends or other means available to do content gets a bit old after a while.

It's honestly been 2-3 weeks since even my alts have needed valor, and I tend to shy away from the whole experience of running watered down challenge modes (no timer, no gear scaling, same mechanics) but this 'I'm casual, deal with it' attitude is annoying.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I say a free bonus roll for the boss if the group has a player who has never killed that boss on that difficulty.

This could be especially good because it doesn't reference item level in any way! And players could post in their group application "I've never killed any of these bosses" and it would be a selling point! I love it!

[emilylorange]

There's some smart things that have been said about 'incentives' - where if someone chooses to behave badly clearly it's an incentive issue and that's what they try to fix instead of really analyzing the behavior.

This weekend I did some low level dungeons and I had two groups in a row that zoned into Gnomeregan and in both runs the tank (different tanks) took off running in a straight line to the end. This would have been great except he didn't.... actually tank. The healer following behind him trying to keep him up ripped healing aggro off him, and he just kept running while the rest of us were essentially left to do his job.

In one run I was in the back trying to teach the route to someone who hadn't been before, and we both ended up dead when the instance completed, so yeah, great first time experience for that dude.

In the second run me and the healer I was trying to protect ended up dead outside the final boss room while they completed the instance.

I mean I guess it says something about difficulty if they just run to the end except they're doing it at the expense of other people. Is that an incentive problem or are they just assholes?

[GhostSkull]

oh wait you mean dps are barreling into the wrong add and its the tanks fault. yep. got it...

I didn't say the dps pulled the mob, only that not all tanks hold everything they pull as an example of how the roles are interconnected. Judging a DPS by a meter is only part of the picture. A consideration that is especially important when people expect top 15% performance from 100% of players.

[Granyala]

you can literally buy as much gold as you want to legally now.

Erm yeah .. right.
Are we really going down this route now?!

Because it's not about the gear?

Why else would you run HFC with PuGs, except for Crystallized fel?

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I mean I guess it says something about difficulty if they just run to the end except they're doing it at the expense of other people. Is that an incentive problem or are they just assholes?

It's a game design problem.
game content shouldn't allow player behavior like that and reward it by letting the player succeed.

[keedorin]

Erm yeah .. right.
Are we really going down this route now?!


Why else would you run HFC with PuGs, except for Crystallized fel?

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It's a game design problem.
game content shouldn't allow player behavior like that and reward it by letting the player succeed.

It's not a game design problem. It's more like how someone in highschool gets all A's and goes to college and gets a good job while Billy doesn't do his work and hangs out with his friends and gets F and D's and becomes a bum on the street.

[Mercane]

Why else would you run HFC with PuGs, except for Crystallized fel?

Oh, I'm one of those strange people that can set aside 9 hours of their life and joined a raiding guild so I don't have to worry about group requirements for raiding/dungeons so I can gear up at a relatively regular pace without the whims of group leaders I don't know interrupting things.

If I'm on an alt, I just link [Cutting Edge: The Black Gate] and take my near instant invite.

[kary]

Oh, I'm one of those strange people that can set aside 9 hours of their life and joined a raiding guild so I don't have to worry about group requirements for raiding/dungeons so I can gear up at a relatively regular pace without the whims of group leaders I don't know interrupting things.

If I'm on an alt, I just link [Cutting Edge: The Black Gate] and take my near instant invite.

inb4 abusing achievs for invites

[clevin]

I keep reading the same arguments that don't match my own experience and don't make sense to me.

#1) You get to a certain gear level - 680 or so - and hit a ceiling.

I only started playing again in December, but I've geared two toons to 722 and 706 without raiding - and that includes the time spent leveling from 85-100! At no point did I experience a ceiling. If anything, I was just amazed at how easy it is to gear up right now.
.

I... doubt 722 without any raiding. Even with all conquest gear, maxed crafted gear etc that's tough. But regardless, it's VERY hard to get 720+ with no raiding at all unless you're willing sink a fair amount of gold into max crafted gear, etc. For someone who's been running a garrison on several toons that might be doable, but remember, we're talking someone who is freshly back.

Now, 705-710? Sure. As I've noted, I'm 704 with not all that much effort. HOWEVER... you do realize you and Judgement are saying that someone in 685 is too low for mythic 5s? That you're saying someone could be entirely kitted out in the very gear those instances drop... and that they're under geared? That's nonsensical. As in it makes zero actual sense.

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...
It's not about challenge, getting gear, or the social experience- it's about setting out to do something as fast as possible so I can get it done and go back to posting 'Damn, Daniel' in trade chat for the next 2 hours. You can sit there and call me a cunt all you want, but I choose to run with people that put in the effort to get there gear to such a level that the average 5 man boss lives for ~10 seconds..

THIS is entirely the problem with WoW and it started in Wrath. The second they make 5 mans not something you did with friends to get some gear but a chore you did to get currency of some kind, you have this special kind of asshat who looks at it only as a chore to be done as fast as possible, ignoring that IT'S A FUCKING GAME. If you build any of your personal worth around stuff in WoW, you fail.

[Granyala]

It's not a game design problem. It's more like how someone in highschool gets all A's and goes to college and gets a good job while Billy doesn't do his work and hangs out with his friends and gets F and D's and becomes a bum on the street.

I don't know man, a tank mindlessly charging through mobs w/o any regard for the rest of the group doesn't sound like proper play to me.
Content should be tuned in a way that such a tank would die helplessly.

@Kelraxx: Sure, I was like that too until I got burned out of it after 8 years. To be honest: depending on PuGs for raiding & gearing your character sucks. Either do it properly with a guild or save yourself the hassle (aside from the occasional Normalmode tourist run to see the place).

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THIS is entirely the problem with WoW and it started in Wrath. The second they make 5 mans not something you did with friends to get some gear but a chore you did to get currency of some kind, you have this special kind of asshat who looks at it only as a chore to be done as fast as possible, ignoring that IT'S A FUCKING GAME.

Amen.
{smartass mode] the currency chore started in TBC though[/smartass mode]

[Mercane]

THIS is entirely the problem with WoW and it started in Wrath. The second they make 5 mans not something you did with friends to get some gear but a chore you did to get currency of some kind, you have this special kind of asshat who looks at it only as a chore to be done as fast as possible, ignoring that IT'S A FUCKING GAME. If you build any of your personal worth around stuff in WoW, you fail.

Sorry mate, getting mad at people who play the game how they want to is definitively childish.

It's a game, not a yard stick for measuring self-worth.

[Treeskee]

Why not a system where people who have this extra free time want to better the community? I usually ask for 670 when I'm queuing for Mythics and have empty spots because that's really all you need. Especially when you and the people you bring are geared enough already.

Also poll is pretty biased. Why not, "No, gear doesn't fix stupid. so leave it like it is."

[Stuffs]

If so many 680 toons feel this way, they need to stop applying to those groups and form their own! (this actually happens you know - I joined some of those groups myself as I was gearing up). If you don't need those better geared players to help you, why are you complaining about not getting into their groups?

Never going to happen. You see it all the time with other content too. Rather than form their own raid without reserves, they'd rather whine someone is making a raid with a trinket on reserve for instance. People conflate being a casual player with playing poorly and being lazy all the time and its ludicrous.

People seem to think they're entitled to a raid slot or whatever else more and more as the years go on, rather than address their logs.

[Kokolums]

There's gotta be some experiments or research by grad students in psychology or sociology exploring what happens when you pay people to help the needy instead of relying on people to do it for nothing. But I cant find anything.